TIL have sent a letter after an invalid ticket via an unreadable Railcard.

[LCPM01]

Please help if you can.

My girlfriend has had a letter come through asking for confirmation of the validity of her Railcard. We've tried going to the local station, ringing customer relations etc and cannot get anywhere because we don't have a receipt- it wasn't provided to her or it has been lost.

We were travelling on a CrossCountry train from Leicester to Birmingham and then from Birmingham to Kidderminster (we were stopped on the first by a XC staff member.

We cannot afford to go to court as she is a student and wanting to become a teacher, so cannot afford any records.

We did not know that the date was unreadable so it was a genuine mistake. We were not read our rights (which I was when I was caught with my "feet on the supports of a chair" by merseyrail"). We weren't given a slip to say we had been stopped and she took the bottom half of the Railcard off us - leaving us with the photocard half.

The inspector printed off a ticket to carry on the journey without paying - but we were never given the option to pay or even the chance to ask, which looking at section 2.9 of the Railcard terms and conditions, we should have been. Also the Network Rail terms of service seem to suggest that prosecution is an option if one can not show a valid ticket and will not pay.

We just need help, we're happy to pay for an ooc settlement to get rid of this unneeded stress.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Haywain]

I'm afraid you need the receipt for the railcard purchase - the part of the application form that has details such as the expiry date entered - and without that you really are struggling. Unless you can confirm absolutely when it was purchased, and that was in the 12 months prior to being stopped, you are going to have to pin this one down to experience and look for an out of court settlement. Even if you can confirm when it was purchased, you will probably have to go down that road. Ultimately, it is your responsibility to ensure that a railcard is in-date and valid when you use a discounted ticket. TIL do settle out of court but other cases on this forum suggest that you have to ask them two or three times to achieve that.

 

[LCPM01]

I'm afraid you need the receipt for the railcard purchase - the part of the application form that has details such as the expiry date entered - and without that you really are struggling. Unless you can confirm absolutely when it was purchased, and that was in the 12 months prior to being stopped, you are going to have to pin this one down to experience and look for an out of court settlement. Even if you can confirm when it was purchased, you will probably have to go down that road. Ultimately, it is your responsibility to ensure that a railcard is in-date and valid when you use a discounted ticket. TIL do settle out of court but other cases on this forum suggest that you have to ask them two or three times to achieve that.

The closest thing to "hard proof" we might be able to find would be a bank statement showing the transaction to the station for £30 but I doubt that'd be accepted as they'd likely say it was for a ticket.
We have her previous Railcard which expired on the 29th June, so we know it was in date on the 4th but we have no way to prove it that'll make them happy.
The problem with trying to get access to the statement lies in the fact she doesn't want to get her mother involved due to how she will react - despite it being a genuine mistake.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

If you are 100% sure the railcard was/is valid at the time, and you have to be certain - and they have it in their possession - I would advise them that it is for them to prove that it is invalid/expired, and that you will put them to strict proof of the fact should they proceed to court, and failing that, you will submit that there is no case to answer, and ask the court to pay your defence costs owing to the unreasonable behaviour of the prosecution.

However, if the railcard was unreadable to such an extent before travel, and you knew this, but still travelled anyway, I suspect there is a condition of use advising around obtaining a replacement etc - in which case, you need to re-consider your approach, as it may be a technical breach of conditions.

 

[LCPM01]

If you are 100% sure the railcard was/is valid at the time, and you have to be certain - and they have it in their possession - I would advise them that it is for them to prove that it is invalid/expired, and that you will put them to strict proof of the fact should they proceed to court, and failing that, you will submit that there is no case to answer, and ask the court to pay your defence costs owing to the unreasonable behaviour of the prosecution.

However, if the railcard was unreadable to such an extent before travel, and you knew this, but still travelled anyway, I suspect there is a condition of use advising around obtaining a replacement etc - in which case, you need to re-consider your approach, as it may be a technical breach of conditions.

We were not aware of it because we've never faced a check on the trains before, so yes we should have gone about getting a new card, but we didn't know. I know that wouldn't stand though. We could just about make a number out of the month but I wasn't given chance to look for the year because they took it off us and didn't come back.

I would advise them that it is for them to prove that it is invalid/expired, and that you will put them to strict proof of the fact should they proceed to court

Would a bank statement showing a payment of the correct sum of £30 to the station be enough? That is all we have, if we have to and can find it on her mother's bank statements.

 

[GadgetMan]

The closest thing to "hard proof" we might be able to find would be a bank statement showing the transaction to the station for £30 but I doubt that'd be accepted as they'd likely say it was for a ticket.
We have her previous Railcard which expired on the 29th June, so we know it was in date on the 4th but we have no way to prove it that'll make them happy.
The problem with trying to get access to the statement lies in the fact she doesn't want to get her mother involved due to how she will react - despite it being a genuine mistake.

So you have a previous Railcard in your possession that expired 29 June 2020, are you sure the one that was confiscated wasn't an older one possibly expiring 29 June 2019? Not many people will have renewed their rail card last year in the middle of the pandemic with hardly any traveling involved.

If you're sure it's valid then go to court and ask them to swipe the Railcard in a ticket machine or heat it up with a lighter as that used to bring the date out nicely, but only worked once.

 

[LCPM01]

So you have a previous Railcard in your possession that expired 29 June 2020, are you sure the one that was confiscated wasn't an older one possibly expiring 29 June 2019? Not many people will have renewed their rail card last year in the middle of the pandemic with hardly any traveling involved.

If you're sure it's valid then go to court and ask them to swipe the Railcard in a ticket machine or heat it up with a lighter as that used to bring the date out nicely, but only worked once.

I am sure it is her most recent one as she bought it just before she met me and it was used to travel to me when permitted during the pandemic- hence the offending fading of the ink. Sadly, that half is what they took off of us, I guess to prevent us from doing that and finding out the date because the station said that it is possible to get the date like that.

Like I have said we're happy to take liability and try get an out of court settlement but I am not entirely sure what I should include in said request.

 

[Haywain]

I would advise them that it is for them to prove that it is invalid/expired, and that you will put them to strict proof of the fact should they proceed to court

This doesn't look like good advice to me. Firstly, if the railcard was unreadable then it cannot be considered valid - inspection of the railcard on a train is a visual process and not a forensic analysis to be carried out later - and it is the ticket holder's responsibility to show that they are entitled to a discount. Secondly, if the object is to keep away from court, a combative approach will not succeed in achieving that.

Like I have said we're happy to take liability and try get an out of court settlement but I am not entirely sure what I should include in said request.

The post below from @Hadders of this forum sums that up very well. For train company, read TIL, and not my earlier comment about having to write more than once in most cases.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this, and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court, however harsh this may seem.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don't think that you have said what sort of railcard your girlfriend has: I'm assuming that it's a 16-25 railcard: if it's something different, then please check that the same applies to the card in question.

Part of the Railcard Terms & Conditions at https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/ read

2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel.

2.8.1. If you have a physical Railcard, it must be signed by you and should be legible so staff can read it, as further detailed in the NRCoT.

2.8.2 If you bought your physical Railcard at a rail station, you must carry your Railcard Photocard with you on your journey.

2.8.3. If you have a digital Railcard, you must be able to show it on a mobile device throughout your journey.

2.9. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7 and/or 2.8, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare. If you are using your Railcard to get discounts for another person, they will also be charged the full price for the applicable single fare for their journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases they may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.

2.10. Fraudulent applications and fraudulent use of Railcards and Railcard discounted tickets may lead to criminal prosecution.

It seems to me that TIL are relying on condition 2.10. They are, of course entitled to do this, but only if your girlfriend has been fraudulent - that is, she knowingly used an invalid railcard with the intention of getting a benefit she wasn't entitled to (such as a cheap train fare). Proving this is actually quite a hurdle for TIL to get over if they're intending to prosecute.

So do I suggest that you ignore TIL or tell them to get lost? No, I don't. The best way to resolve this matter is still by negotiation, which means recognising the power that TIL have and being nice to them. I very much expect that @Hadders will be along soon (and I see that @Haywain has quoted @Hadders in post #8 above while I've been writing this), to give an excellent explanation of what your girlfriend should say and how she should say it, and your girlfriend would do well to follow that guidance. But your girlfriend should also point out that she knows when her previous railcard expired and from that (and from the bank statement) can infer when her current card started: and so it was in-date at the time of the incident. She now realises that the card failed condition 2.8 (because of not being legible per 2.8.1) but she asks TIL to follow condition 2.9 and charge the full price for a fare for the journey, plus (if appropriate) a penalty fare.

As has been said upthread, it often takes TIL some time to agree to out of court settlements. But I would hope (but can't guarantee) that drawing their attention to the relevant terms & conditions will encourage them to understand that their chances of an easy conviction at court aren't too good, and agreeing a settlement will be in their interest as well as that of your girlfriend.


What if none of this works? What if the whole thing ends up in court and your girlfriend loses? As you've already realised, it will be expensive and your girlfriend probably doesn't want to pay that cost. And there's not much we can do about that. But you also need to know what will not happen as a result of going to court

- no-one will go to prison. Although an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act can - in theory - be punished by imprisonment, in practice the sentencing guidelines are very clear indeed that unless there's something truly awful to aggravate the offence (violence or very frequent repetition of the offence might do it) then a fine is the appropriate sanction.
- no-one will stop your girlfriend training or working as a teacher. A conviction for fare-dodging will have to be declared, but from what I've seen with teacher training institutions and schools, one offence is seen as a mistake that anyone could make. As with prison, frequent repetition might be looked at rather differently (and lying about having a conviction is a problem as well - that suggests that an offender wasn't untrustworthy just on the day when they didn't pay the right fare, but is still untrustworthy and will lie to protect themselves) but a one-off won't be a problem.

 

[LCPM01]

We've rang TIL to ask what we should do next as their letter was quiet vague. It asked only for: "a clear copy of yourconfirmation of your railcard showing your expiry date as soon as possible?" (The lack of a space is how it was sent, not my error). And on the following line: "If I do not receive any representation from you within 21 days of the date of this letter, a Summons to a Magistrates Court hearing may be issued without further reference to you."

Understandable my girlfriend is panicking and just wants this resolved as soon as possible via the use of a fine.

I have drafted this, but please feel free to say if I need to add more or add her side of the story:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to express my sincere apologies regarding the instance for which I have been reported - where my Railcard wasn't able to be read for a clear expiration date. I regret this lapse of judgement (as per condition 2.8.1) of the 16-25 Railcard Terms and Conditions, however I hope that you will allow me the chance (as per condition 2.9) to pay for my fare as well as any administrative costs required to settle the case.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Since the moment of being reported I have learnt my lesson and will ensure that the condition of my Railcard is kept in good order when travelling on trains in the future. I will also ensure to thoroughly check the condition of said Railcard before each journey, to avoid any further issues of this nature. I have also realised the devastating effects that such a charge could have on the career I am aspiring and studying to follow as a teacher.

I am keen and hoping that we can reach a mutual agreement regarding settling this case without the need for court action.

If an agreement can be made, I am happy to pay the full fare of the journey and also any administrative costs required to allow this settlement to happen.

I look forward to hearing from you soon in regards to this matter and hope we can settle this together.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This doesn't look like good advice to me. Firstly, if the railcard was unreadable then it cannot be considered valid - inspection of the railcard on a train is a visual process and not a forensic analysis to be carried out later - and it is the ticket holder's responsibility to show that they are entitled to a discount. Secondly, if the object is to keep away from court, a combative approach will not succeed in achieving that.


The post below from @Hadders of this forum sums that up very well. For train company, read TIL, and not my earlier comment about having to write more than once in most cases.

People really need to start reading the totality of my advice, rather than just snippets of it to critique. The advice you quote was heavily caveated underneath.

There are also some pretty likely legal flaws from the start with this, that I haven’t even mentioned yet, around continuity of evidence / chain of custody and exhibiting, that I doubt have been followed by anybody. Was the railcard put into an appropriate evidence bag at the time of seizure, and the correct details filled in by the person seizing it? Where was this then stored? Who had access to it? How did it get to an external prosecutor? I don’t think it would be a stretch at all to have the railcard excluded from evidence, where their case falls to pieces unless they also have a confession. Private prosecutors can be notoriously lacking in this area and are generally easy to find holes in when it comes to the handling of evidence.

Of course, this comes with a risk- but again, if you are certain your railcard was valid and readable- albeit faded - it is for the prosecutor to make the case, not you.

You may not have a record of the expiry date, but the railway certainly does. You would be entitled to ask the prosecution for:

A copy of the paper application form or any data derived from that;

An extract from any industry sales and payment systems which record tickets and products issued. I have seen reference to a system called Lennon on this forum, which would appear to be the system that they can check.

The prosecution / investigators are legally obliged to investigate without bias, and must consider all evidence (or potential evidence) regardless of whether it weakens their case or not.

If there is any doubt whatsoever that the railcard may have expired or been otherwise invalid, you need to take a totally different approach. You need to weigh that up NOW, before you do anything else.

 

[LCPM01]

You may not have a record of the expiry date, but the railway certainly does. You would be entitled to ask the prosecution for:

A copy of the paper application form or any data derived from that;

I have contacted merseyrail as per the advice of both the station and the Railcard's customer relations and they said that they have no records and do not keep records of Railcards, so someone must be lying or something.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I have contacted merseyrail as per the advice of both the station and the Railcard's customer relations and they said that they have no records and do not keep records of Railcards, so someone must be lying or something.

Well the forms must go somewhere. Ask Merseyrail who they send the forms to, or what happens to them. They will contain personal information so will / must be treated securely, so someone will know.

You can still ask them to check their sales records, but you will need to tell them the date you purchased it from, probably the station, and I'd suggest things like time, type of railcard and method of payment. They should have access to an industry system that contains that information, although it may not be known to a run of the mill customer service department.

However, this is not really going to help you if the railcard was totally unreadable and/or had expired. Although if it got to court, and it was valid, just unreadable, it would be good mitigation, but probably not a defence in itself.

 

[Haywain]

I have contacted merseyrail as per the advice of both the station and the Railcard's customer relations and they said that they have no records and do not keep records of Railcards, so someone must be lying or something.

Merseyrail will not have a record of the sale of a specific railcard. While the application form is retained at the time of sale it is sent off by post to a central address, at which point it may, or may not, be entered onto a database (for marketing purposes, I suppose, but I've never heard of anybody receiving any marketing materials after buying a railcard at a station). It may, perhaps more likely, end up in the bin at some point in this process.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Merseyrail will not have a record of the sale of a specific railcard. While the application form is retained at the time of sale it is sent off by post to a central address, at which point it may, or may not, be entered onto a database (for marketing purposes, but I've never heard of anybody receiving any marketing materials after buying a railcard at a station). It may, perhaps more likely, end up in the bin at some point in this process.

Of course they will! (Well, sale of A particular TYPE of railcard at least )

All tickets and products sold are recorded in an industry system, which I believe is known as Lennon. I am also informed that the data in that system goes back years, and captures everything that goes through a ticket machine system.

If the record shows that a particular type of railcard was sold at 10:00 on 1st January 2021, at X station for £Y price - and the member has a bank statement corroborating that on that date and time, for that price, at that location - then clearly you can prove it must be that railcard.

I'd imagine start and end dates are recorded anyway- but even if not, they seem to be valid for 12 or 36 months, so should be easy to work out whether it was valid or not.

I'd find our whether they sent that form off or not, because if they did, your details will be on a marketing database somewhere, and I'd imagine the expiry date of your railcard would be captured, so they can theoretically get you to renew it or stop sending you offers.

 

[LCPM01]

However, this is not really going to help you if the railcard was totally unreadable and/or had expired. Although if it got to court, and it was valid, just unreadable, it would be good mitigation, but probably not a defence in itself.

Again that is where they'll try to get her, because you couldn't read it without playing around with how the light hit it. And even then it was hit and miss.

I posted earlier a draft of a letter, does anyone know if it should suffice so far or need improvement?

 

[Haywain]

All tickets and products sold are recorded in an industry system, which I believe is known as Lennon. I am also informed that the data in that system goes back years, and captures everything that goes through a ticket machine system.

If the record shows that a particular type of railcard was sold at 10:00 on 1st January 2021, at X station for £Y price - and the member has a bank statement corroborating that on that date and time, for that price, at that location - then clearly you can prove it must be that railcard.

I'd imagine start and end dates are recorded anyway- but even if not, they seem to be valid for 12 or 36 months, so should be easy to work out whether it was valid or not.

You can imagine anything you like, but you are wrong. And the payment won't necessarily show the day it went through, let alone the time.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Again that is where they'll try to get her, because you couldn't read it without playing around with how the light hit it. And even then it was hit and miss.

I posted earlier a draft of a letter, does anyone know if it should suffice so far or need improvement?

But if (even with some trickery) it could be read, even with difficulty - it is valid in my view.

You can imagine anything you like, but you are wrong. And the payment won't necessarily show the day it went through, let alone the time.

So you deny that ticket sales records are kept in an industry system known as Lennon?

As for the payment, again, easy enough to SAR Merseyrail for them to get the details from their payment processing system, which will even show partial card numbers relating to a transaction.

 

[Haywain]

So you deny that ticket sales records are kept in an industry system known as Lennon?

I don't deny anything of the sort, but I do know exactly how much detail is retained in that system. Have you ever used Lennon?

 

[LCPM01]

But if (even with some trickery) it could be read, even with difficulty - it is valid in my view.

I'd argue that the use of paper Railcards are stupid when surely plastic cards can be printed almost just as easily?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I don't deny anything of the sort, but I do know exactly how much detail is retained in that system. Have you ever used Lennon?

Not a clue, but by virtue that it is surely a system that must be useful, it must surely contain :

Time of sale
Date of sale
What was sold
Method of payment
Date of travel
Start/expiry dates of things it captures (Although this doesn't matter anyway if it's for a fixed length of time)
Where/who sold it
Probably things like ticket numbers and references

Are you saying this information is not captured?

Without the above, the system would be pretty useless in its function!

I'm usually all for trying to settle, but some of you lot have totally given up on this one, when it's not even strictly clear an offence has even been committed.

Simply saying "data not available" is a load of rubbish. I've seen county lines dealers tracked down using rail sales data that went back years and had so many columns and rows Excel couldn't handle it.

 

[LCPM01]

Here is the draft, including the explanation of events on the day:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

As requested when calling you on your telephone number, I am sending you my account of events.

On the 4th June 2021, I, alongside my partner, boarded the 13:18 train from Leicester to Kidderminster, to be stopped by a member of staff on the train when checking tickets. Upon this inspection, we both realised that the expiration date was unreadable in the timescale of checking tickets, which invalidated the ticket in my possession. However, I was not offered a chance to pay for the full single fare for the journey, which is stated within the Terms and Conditions for the 16-25 Railcard (as per condition 2.9). If this option was available to me, I would have happily paid up for the fair as I did not mean and had no intention to travel with an invalid ticket. Instead of being offered this chance, I had a ticket printed to allow me to continue my journey, part of my Railcard taken away and I was not provided with a receipt to detail why I had been stopped at the time.

I am also writing to express my sincere apologies regarding the instance for which I have been reported - where my Railcard wasn't able to be read for a clear expiration date. I regret this lapse of judgement (as per condition 2.8.1) of the 16-25 Railcard Terms and Conditions, however I hope that you will allow me the chance (as per condition 2.9) to pay for my fare as well as any administrative costs required to settle the case.

(Link to terms and conditions will go here)

Since the moment of being reported I have learnt my lesson and will ensure that the condition of my Railcard is kept in good order when travelling on trains in the future. I will also ensure to thoroughly check the condition of said Railcard before each journey, to avoid any further issues of this nature. I have also realised the devastating affects that such a charge could have on the career I am aspiring and studying to follow as a teacher.

I am keen and hoping that we can reach a mutual agreement regarding settling this case without the need for court action.

If an agreement can be made, I am happy to pay the full fare of the journey and also any administrative costs required to allow this settlement to happen.

I look forward to hearing from you soon in regards to this matter and hope we can settle this together.

Yours sincerely,"

 

[Fawkes Cat]

We've rang TIL to ask what we should do next as their letter was quiet vague. It asked only for: "a clear copy of yourconfirmation of your railcard showing your expiry date as soon as possible?" (The lack of a space is how it was sent, not my error). And on the following line: "If I do not receive any representation from you within 21 days of the date of this letter, a Summons to a Magistrates Court hearing may be issued without further reference to you."

Understandable my girlfriend is panicking and just wants this resolved as soon as possible via the use of a fine.

I have drafted this, but please feel free to say if I need to add more or add her side of the story:

I think this is fine. It's reasonably short and to the point, clear and courteous. There are one or two bits that aren't needed (TIL won't be interested in the impact on your girlfriend's career) but I don't think that's there's anything that makes the letter noticeably too long, so unless someone spots some sort of omission I wouldn't change it.

 

[Haywain]

Without the above, the system would be pretty useless in its function!

Lennon's function is to distribute revenue, not to identify who bought a railcard.

I've seen county lines dealers tracked down using rail sales data that went back years and had so many columns and rows Excel couldn't handle it.

Not if they bought their tickets at ticket offices you haven't.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. But suffice to say that the requirement for the OP's girlfriend was to present a valid and legible (to the human eye) railcard in support of a discounted ticket. This was not achieved and therefore the railcard was not valid. I am not confident that a prosecution would fail and I am not confident that defending a prosecution, successfully or otherwise, would be cheaper than settling the matter. Therefore I stand by the advice I have given and support the advice that has been given by others along similar lines.

 

[Snow1964]

This whole saga seems to imply that the rail company is asking for a receipt (where the ink is readable) issued from the same place as a railcard (where the ink has faded). Even the rail conditions of carriage don’t stretch to specifying quality of ink.

Of course if the receipt is found, or you can prove you bought it, then a magistrate is not going to be too impressed if the basis for prosecution is a ticket inspector didn’t have good enough eyesight to read a railcard (they are not even claiming didn’t have one, or it wasn’t unexpired).

What may be helpful is you go online for the bank or credit card, it is often possible to click on a transaction (although sometimes you need to phone them) and get further details, a transaction reference number from the railway that sold it to you. Effectively this is an electronic match to the till receipt.

As all Limited Companies have to keep financial records for at least 6 years (by law), the railway will be able to demonstrate what was bought under that transaction (it’s somewhat easier than old days when a physical till roll would have to be retrieved from a store room, and manually unwound to the relevant item).

I am assuming the railcard was not expired, but there is also a section of consumer law which basically says any item sold must be of merchantable quality. Clearly any one year pass where a date is so poorly added that it isn’t visible within the year almost certainly fails this test, and really the merchant should have replaced it, not tried to convisgate it. However this all gets legally messy as consumer law vs conditions of carriage, and which takes precedence in a magistrates court, is not my area of expertise.

I will leave it to others to decide, but if you can give the financial transaction reference, the date and place of buying it, the amount paid, and date is consistent with the expiry of a previous one, you are supplying virtually the same information as would be printed on a receipt. It would therefore be illogical for railway not to accept it (unfortunately the railway doesn’t always act logically).


A normal business would not be wasting its time chasing you, but would be putting its efforts into fixing its ticket printer. It would be interesting conversation if the receipt was printed on same machine so is just as unclear.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Lennon's function is to distribute revenue, not to identify who bought a railcard.

Not if they bought their tickets at ticket offices you haven't.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. But suffice to say that the requirement for the OP's girlfriend was to present a valid and legible (to the human eye) railcard in support of a discounted ticket. This was not achieved and therefore the railcard was not valid. I am not confident that a prosecution would fail and I am not confident that defending a prosecution, successfully or otherwise, would be cheaper than settling the matter. Therefore I stand by the advice I have given and support the advice that has been given by others along similar lines.

They had ALL bought their tickets from ticket offices and self service machines from across the country.

All sales (regardless of where they are bought from) all go into one big industry databases.

There is another system that deals with revenue distribution.

Incidentally, and from what I learned on Delay Repay, they check the same industry system, albeit for normal tickets!

 

[CyrusWuff]

I am assuming the railcard was not expired, but there is also a section of consumer law which basically says any item sold must be of merchantable quality. Clearly any one year pass where a date is so poorly added that it isn’t visible within the year almost certainly fails this test, and really the merchant should have replaced it, not tried to convisgate it. However this all gets legally messy as consumer law vs conditions of carriage, and which takes precedence in a magistrates court, is not my area of expertise

Drifting off-topic, but any Ticket Office should be able to replace a faded Railcard (providing it's been issued at a station) free of charge, providing it's still just about readable and/or the holder can provide the receipt. If the Railcard was purchased online, the holder would need to request a replacement through the relevant website.

The exception to this is Gold Record Cards accompanying qualifying Annual Season tickets issued on Oyster or a Smartcard, which can't easily be reprinted.

 

[LCPM01]

Drifting off-topic, but any Ticket Office should be able to replace a faded Railcard (providing it's been issued at a station) free of charge, providing it's still just about readable and/or the holder can provide the receipt. If the Railcard was purchased online, the holder would need to request a replacement through the relevant website.

The exception to this is Gold Record Cards accompanying qualifying Annual Season tickets issued on Oyster or a Smartcard, which can't easily be reprinted.

I found this out, but the "inspector" took the Railcard off her, leaving her with just the photocard half, which has the same Railcard number on it, just no date

 

[Tallguy]

If the transaction to purchase the railcard was made by card then there will be a Paper trail that will have to be kept for 6 years. Look back on your bank/credit card statements, find the transaction then ask the card provider for full details inc the transaction number. Few rail tickets are exactly £30, and the tie up with the station you purchased the railcard from and the transaction number should provide a link that will help you. The TOC will be able to check the transaction records against what was sold for that transaction. Good luck.

 

[Haywain]

There is another system that deals with revenue distribution.

Really. Which system would that be?