TIL have sent a letter after an invalid ticket via an unreadable Railcard.

[Bletchleyite]

Really. Which system would that be?

ORCATS presumably, though it's not relevant to this situation.

 

[30907]

This whole saga seems to imply that the rail company is asking for a receipt (where the ink is readable) issued from the same place as a railcard (where the ink has faded). Even the rail conditions of carriage don’t stretch to specifying quality of ink.

Most people don't carry receipts around with them for a year and subject them to wear and tear. They are not even necessarily issued from the same printer? (Northern for example).

I agree that expecting someone to keep the receipt "just in case" is unreasonable (unless it is clearly stated in the T and Cs).

 

[furlong]

Is ALL the thermal printing impossible to read, or are any of the other numbers on the ticket still readable? if so, they might provide the audit trail required - station, window, ticket number etc. Ask for a high-resolution image if need be.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is ALL the thermal printing impossible to read, or are any of the other numbers on the ticket still readable? if so, they might provide the audit trail required - station, window, ticket number etc. Ask for a high-resolution image if need be.

We always used to find the office toaster invaluable to bring back unreadable railcards

 

[Haywain]

ORCATS presumably, though it's not relevant to this situation.

Yes, I expect so but it needs the sales data from somewhere and that somewhere is Lennon. And that’s why all TIS have to be accredited, particularly around sending accurate transactional data to Lennon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people don't carry receipts around with them for a year and subject them to wear and tear. They are not even necessarily issued from the same printer? (Northern for example).

I agree that expecting someone to keep the receipt "just in case" is unreasonable (unless it is clearly stated in the T and Cs).

The Railcard leaflet very clearly instructs you to retain the receipt in case of loss/theft so a replacement can be obtained for the admin fee.

 

[Hadders]

Please help if you can.

My girlfriend has had a letter come through asking for confirmation of the validity of her Railcard. We've tried going to the local station, ringing customer relations etc and cannot get anywhere because we don't have a receipt- it wasn't provided to her or it has been lost.

We were travelling on a CrossCountry train from Leicester to Birmingham and then from Birmingham to Kidderminster (we were stopped on the first by a XC staff member.

We cannot afford to go to court as she is a student and wanting to become a teacher, so cannot afford any records.

We did not know that the date was unreadable so it was a genuine mistake. We were not read our rights (which I was when I was caught with my "feet on the supports of a chair" by merseyrail"). We weren't given a slip to say we had been stopped and she took the bottom half of the Railcard off us - leaving us with the photocard half.

The inspector printed off a ticket to carry on the journey without paying - but we were never given the option to pay or even the chance to ask, which looking at section 2.9 of the Railcard terms and conditions, we should have been. Also the Network Rail terms of service seem to suggest that prosecution is an option if one can not show a valid ticket and will not pay.

We just need help, we're happy to pay for an ooc settlement to get rid of this unneeded stress.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the forum!

It's unfortunate that the ink on your railcard had faded to the point it became unreadable.

Here is the draft, including the explanation of events on the day:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

As requested when calling you on your telephone number, I am sending you my account of events.

On the 4th June 2021, I, alongside my partner, boarded the 13:18 train from Leicester to Kidderminster, to be stopped by a member of staff on the train when checking tickets. Upon this inspection, we both realised that the expiration date was unreadable in the timescale of checking tickets, which invalidated the ticket in my possession. However, I was not offered a chance to pay for the full single fare for the journey, which is stated within the Terms and Conditions for the 16-25 Railcard (as per condition 2.9). If this option was available to me, I would have happily paid up for the fair as I did not mean and had no intention to travel with an invalid ticket. Instead of being offered this chance, I had a ticket printed to allow me to continue my journey, part of my Railcard taken away and I was not provided with a receipt to detail why I had been stopped at the time.

I am also writing to express my sincere apologies regarding the instance for which I have been reported - where my Railcard wasn't able to be read for a clear expiration date. I regret this lapse of judgement (as per condition 2.8.1) of the 16-25 Railcard Terms and Conditions, however I hope that you will allow me the chance (as per condition 2.9) to pay for my fare as well as any administrative costs required to settle the case.

(Link to terms and conditions will go here)

Since the moment of being reported I have learnt my lesson and will ensure that the condition of my Railcard is kept in good order when travelling on trains in the future. I will also ensure to thoroughly check the condition of said Railcard before each journey, to avoid any further issues of this nature. I have also realised the devastating affects that such a charge could have on the career I am aspiring and studying to follow as a teacher.

I am keen and hoping that we can reach a mutual agreement regarding settling this case without the need for court action.

If an agreement can be made, I am happy to pay the full fare of the journey and also any administrative costs required to allow this settlement to happen.

I look forward to hearing from you soon in regards to this matter and hope we can settle this together.

Yours sincerely,"

I think this letter is fine, the only things I would suggest changing unreadable to 'had faded to the point that it was unreadable'. If you are certain that the railcard was in date then I would consider mentioning this in the letter but if you are in any way unsure then don't.

 

[Snow1964]

The Railcard leaflet very clearly instructs you to retain the receipt in case of loss/theft so a replacement can be obtained for the admin fee.

But it wasn’t lost or stolen
And why should anyone be expected to pay to replace something that was issued with rubbish ink

I have in a box of old memorabilia my first railcard (issued nearly 40 years ago) and expiry date is visible (It was hand stamped with one of those stamps where you turn the dates).

It’s not progress to reduce the quality so it becomes unreadable in few months. Why change from real ink to thermal ink if it fades

 

[Haywain]

And why should anyone be expected to pay to replace something that was issued with rubbish ink

Replacements for faded railcards are free of charge. And there’s no ink, it’s thermal printing.

 

[jon0844]

How was the railcard stored? Seems odd to have the details fade away in under a year.

Was it just the date that had faded or everything else? If the former, it could certainly appear suspicious.

 

[Titfield]

How was the railcard stored? Seems odd to have the details fade away in under a year.

Was it just the date that had faded or everything else? If the former, it could certainly appear suspicious.

UV Light and heat causes thermal printing to disappear. If left out in normal light the printing will start to deteriorate.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

How was the railcard stored? Seems odd to have the details fade away in under a year.

Was it just the date that had faded or everything else? If the former, it could certainly appear suspicious.

No, this happens. This isn't just my personal experience but see also the various comments above about techniques to bring faded cards back from the dead.

 

[island]

Most people don't carry receipts around with them for a year and subject them to wear and tear. They are not even necessarily issued from the same printer? (Northern for example).

I agree that expecting someone to keep the receipt "just in case" is unreasonable (unless it is clearly stated in the T and Cs).

Railcard “receipts” are (meant to be) issued by way of writing the card details onto the Railcard leaflet on the opposite page to the application form, which is then stamped with the booking office stamp and returned to the passenger.

As the leaflets are (presumably) printed offset litho they do not suffer from fading.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Another reason why digital railcards are the way to go. If you still must insist on paper railcards, then suggest you take a picture/scan of it and also the same with the receipt incase there's any further instances similar to this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another reason why digital railcards are the way to go. If you still must insist on paper railcards, then suggest you take a picture/scan of it and also the same with the receipt incase there's any further instances similar to this.

Or just keep the receipt like you are asked to. It is not hard. Almost everyone has a box or file of receipts they chuck them in when they buy things that might need to go back at some point, e.g. electronics.

 

[father_jack]

We always used to find the office toaster invaluable to bring back unreadable railcards

Cigarette lighter on the back was usually successful too. Or hold it up at the correct angle to the light. Or run it through the Newbury brand ticket office printer and the readout will show the date.

All that said the passenger should really have either tried to have it "refreshed" if it was that far gone (there is a set ATOC process with a compromise on expiry date if totally illegible) or a clerk should have spotted it earlier but alas many clerks say "that's just ok for this time" until the passenger ends up with what might as well be a piece of blank railcard stock.

 

[Haywain]

We always used to find the office toaster invaluable to bring back unreadable railcards

I guess in this case the inspector wasn't carrying a toaster.

Or hold it up at the correct angle to the light.

Not always successful.

Or run it through the Newbury brand ticket office printer and the readout will show the date.

Depends on the TIS you're using. But again, I doubt the inspector was carrying one.

or a clerk should have spotted it earlier but alas many clerks say "that's just ok for this time" until the passenger ends up with what might as well be a piece of blank railcard stock.

This assumes the tickets are purchased at a counter which, these days, is the minority.

 

[LCPM01]

Railcard “receipts” are (meant to be) issued by way of writing the card details onto the Railcard leaflet on the opposite page to the application form, which is then stamped with the booking office stamp and returned to the passenger.

As the leaflets are (presumably) printed offset litho they do not suffer from fading.

She wasn't provided with a receipt, she bought a new one and took her old one with her and they just printed out the Railcard and that was it!

 

[bb21]

Not a clue, but by virtue that it is surely a system that must be useful, it must surely contain :

Time of sale
Date of sale
What was sold
Method of payment
Date of travel
Start/expiry dates of things it captures (Although this doesn't matter anyway if it's for a fixed length of time)
Where/who sold it
Probably things like ticket numbers and references

Are you saying this information is not captured?

Without the above, the system would be pretty useless in its function!

I'm usually all for trying to settle, but some of you lot have totally given up on this one, when it's not even strictly clear an offence has even been committed.

Simply saying "data not available" is a load of rubbish. I've seen county lines dealers tracked down using rail sales data that went back years and had so many columns and rows Excel couldn't handle it.

Can you take the discussion about LENNON elsewhere please, as you are not helping and clogging up the thread. Thank you.

She wasn't provided with a receipt, she bought a new one and took her old one with her and they just printed out the Railcard and that was it!

I have never heard of that happening, as that causes accounting discrepancies.

 

[LCPM01]

How was the railcard stored? Seems odd to have the details fade away in under a year.

Was it just the date that had faded or everything else? If the former, it could certainly appear suspicious.

Almost all of the details appeared faded to various degrees. She kept it in her phone case, so the heat from her phone obviously accelerated the deterioration.

 

[Haywain]

She wasn't provided with a receipt, she bought a new one and took her old one with her and they just printed out the Railcard and that was it!

I have never heard of that happening, as that causes accounting discrepancies.

Assuming that the payment of £30 was actually made, there would be no discrepancy. Unfortunately I've seen this happen - some staff seem to think it's helpful to not 'waste' the customer's time filling out an application form or their own filling out the receipt part.

 

[island]

Assuming that the payment of £30 was actually made, there would be no discrepancy. Unfortunately I've seen this happen - some staff seem to think it's helpful to not 'waste' the customer's time filling out an application form or their own filling out the receipt part.

Yes, I have had to argue quite strongly in the past for the receipt part to be stamped and filled out when the staff member wanted to fob me off with a till receipt for the £10.

 

[father_jack]

Assuming that the payment of £30 was actually made, there would be no discrepancy. Unfortunately I've seen this happen - some staff seem to think it's helpful to not 'waste' the customer's time filling out an application form or their own filling out the receipt part.

Quite correct.

 

[bb21]

Assuming that the payment of £30 was actually made, there would be no discrepancy. Unfortunately I've seen this happen - some staff seem to think it's helpful to not 'waste' the customer's time filling out an application form or their own filling out the receipt part.

Very unprofessional but seems my information is out of date on this one.

 

[Haywain]

Very unprofessional but seems my information is out of date on this one.

Well, it's not a recent phenomenon but probably more as the auditing of retail staff tends to be less now than it used to be. However, this is drifting off topic.

 

[HSP 2]

Do one year railcards that are bought from ticket offices not have a start and end date printed on them?

 

[philthetube]

Would a bank statement showing a payment of the correct sum of £30 to the station be enough? That is all we have, if we have to and can find it on her mother's bank statements.

I suspect that this would be more use than others are saying, if it shows who the purchase was made from, and assuming it was for £30, the odds on a ticket having been bought for £30 would be pretty slim.

Also a date time and location may help tracing, if anyone could be bothered.

 

[Haywain]

I suspect that this would be more use than others are saying, if it shows who the purchase was made from, and assuming it was for £30, the odds on a ticket having been bought for £30 would be pretty slim.

Also a date time and location may help tracing, if anyone could be bothered.

It won’t show who a railcard was issued to though, and doesn’t overcome the requirement to show a valid and legible railcard as part of a ticket inspection.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Another reason why digital railcards are the way to go.

Railcards applied for online and sent out by post are issued on plastic cards, aren't they, and presumably don't fade?

Doubt putting one of them near a heat source would be a good idea, anyway.

 

[LCPM01]

Railcards applied for online and sent out by post are issued on plastic cards, aren't they, and presumably don't fade?

Doubt putting one of them near a heat source would be a good idea, anyway.

Yes, i got mine through Santander and it came on a plastic card and doesn't fade, almost like a library card etc. But my girlfriend's Is a station bought, naffy card/paper one.