I'm fairly sure this is one of the top priorities for GBR too fix also, so perhaps we'll see movement towards a proper 7-day railway in the next few years.
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Standing on a Sunday morning…
- Thread starter Llandudno
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I'm fairly sure this is one of the top priorities for GBR too fix also, so perhaps we'll see movement towards a proper 7-day railway in the next few years.
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Most TOCs are looking at a full 7 day service in the future, that's the reason some tocs are recruiting heavily to cover the future plans.
The problems come were network rail and rolling stock depots don't have similar plans for the future, running a 7 day service is more complicated than people think.
As we realise it's a more complicated issue that some people think, it doesn't help that the Sunday jobs are now some of the longest. This doesn't encourage volunteers to want to work their days off really.
do they send 8-car services to Kings Lynn on Sundays now then?
It will though take a lot of negotiation if the powers that be wish to transfer all staff to seven day contracts- rather than relying on rest day working to cover Sundays
flitwickbeds
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Agree. My parents are horrified when I work a Christmas Day (about every 3 years) in my job in TV production.
Yet they sit and watch TV on Christmas Day!
Generally Unions are supportive but TOCs more hesitant - a more holistic approach should see this resolved in time.
dk1
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Thought most Lynn’s where 8-car now.
Class 170101
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Probably think the programmes on BBC 1 and ITV are actually produced on Xmas Day
Most clearly aren't but a few still are, like the news bulletins and continuity.
Of course. Either stuff is still up and running when you're not at work so you can do all the things you need to do with it that you can't do while you're at work, or you have to keep taking leave days to do those things. These days, the once-standard procedure of enslaving someone else with a Ring to do them instead of you is no longer a reliably available alternative.
The problem isn't people having two days off out of seven - really it should be more - but the insistence on trying to make those the same two days for everyone, instead of having them evenly distributed at random over each of the seven possibilities.
Trouble is with railways you do need to have schedulable times when it is "acceptable" to bugger up the service in order to do things like track maintenance, and by the very nature of railways this will affect everyone at once whether they are on their weekend or not. Crappiness is therefore inevitable to some extent, and the problem is how to mitigate it, which is a complex matter indeed; though one point which would be useful would be to establish some legal protection forbidding bosses to blame employees for trains failing to run in their usual manner.
Llandudno
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It’s very rare to see overcrowding on buses on Sunday mornings though!
Metal_gee_man
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Does anyone think this will ever be solved?
I can only see one solution and it'll piss off the unions.
Force everyone to reapply for their jobs with GB Railways as the employer, (Remember its legal and a large organisation like Asda did the same thing recently) everyone will remain doing the same job getting paid the same or equal to someone in the same role, new T&Cs, similar or better pension contributions and this would ensure we have a 24/7 364 day a year railway which is fit for purpose. 4 in 7 or 5 in 7 contracts and no reason why staff don't want to work weekends because they are contracted to do them.
Because many of the drivers won't find a similar role paying the £50-£70k a year they'll either like it or leave. The same should apply all the way down the pay grades. IMHO should a Intercity driver get paid more than a metro driver? No (a metro driver works harder IMO) Should a northern driver decide not to work Sundays where his equal at Southern be contracted to do them? No And this is where the system falls down
I know the English Government along with their Welsh and Scottish counterparts would like the end result but not the resultant backlash and so this would render this idea a non starter. I suppose I can hope we get to this perfect world one day.
I can only see one solution and it'll piss off the unions.
Force everyone to reapply for their jobs with GB Railways as the employer, (Remember its legal and a large organisation like Asda did the same thing recently) everyone will remain doing the same job getting paid the same or equal to someone in the same role, new T&Cs, similar or better pension contributions and this would ensure we have a 24/7 364 day a year railway which is fit for purpose. 4 in 7 or 5 in 7 contracts and no reason why staff don't want to work weekends because they are contracted to do them.
Because many of the drivers won't find a similar role paying the £50-£70k a year they'll either like it or leave. The same should apply all the way down the pay grades. IMHO should a Intercity driver get paid more than a metro driver? No (a metro driver works harder IMO) Should a northern driver decide not to work Sundays where his equal at Southern be contracted to do them? No And this is where the system falls down
I know the English Government along with their Welsh and Scottish counterparts would like the end result but not the resultant backlash and so this would render this idea a non starter. I suppose I can hope we get to this perfect world one day.
the sniper
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How do you think there are so many places with Sunday in the week already? As has been said many times before, there's no ideological barrier on the union side. It can't be done for free though and requires an operator to get its act together in terms of recruitment, training and manning. Even your hard ball solution still requires a fair degree of cooperation with the Drivers/Union if it's going to be implemented without calamity.
Yes, when I worked at the BBC, we used to film all the christmas specials in August ! ( the two Ronnies and the like)Probably think the programmes on BBC 1 and ITV are actually produced on Xmas Day
Most clearly aren't but a few still are, like the news bulletins and continuity.
going hard ball on rail unions would be a terrible idea, leading to total shut down. "fire and re-hire" is a scummy practice that can work if your workforce is precarious. Rail workers, especially those in Safety Critical roles, are not so- training takes time and money that the company has to pay, and the trainers would be among those who would be striking if you tried to do it. Moving to seven day contracts is possible, as others say the unions generally want it, but it will come at a price.
It's a modern mindset that doesn't value the workforce, sack and rehire then businesses wonder why they have low staff morale and low productivity.
some People forget that unions have helped the workers have many good things in the workplace, such as sick leave / paid leave / maternity pay etc etc
snookertam
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Agreed. The worrying issue is that the ongoing strike action is not even causing any political waves despite the fact vast majority of the network has been without any Sunday service for months. It doesn't bode well.
In saying that, in many cases the Sunday service that was offered is quite inadequate here too. For example, first trains between Glasgow and Dumfries aren't until mid afternoon!
daodao
Established Member
Try catching a bus in many areas of the UK on a Sunday, particularly in much of rural Wales, the Marches, Staffordshire and Cheshire.
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Falcon1200
Established Member
But it would cost money, either to the employer (needing more staff to do the same amount of work) and/or to the employee (losing any enhanced pay for Sunday shifts). So while IMHO it is highly desirable, making Sunday a normal working day on the railway is fraught with difficulty.
I couldn’t agree more!
Although I might add that I find it quite annoying when people who do not work weekends or Sunday’s expect everyone else to do so and that everything should be open.
It proves more difficult to do a full leisure day out on a Sunday compared to a Saturday, services in a morning from my local station to a mainline station start 3 hours later than any other day of the week and then getting back services in an evening finish an hour earlier and then you have reduced connections in the middle to deal with!
Although now I primarily work from home I find hotel prices generally a bargain on a Sunday night (perhaps not so much during the current summer peak of course) so sometimes elect just to stay over and travel back home first thing Monday morning!
Although now I primarily work from home I find hotel prices generally a bargain on a Sunday night (perhaps not so much during the current summer peak of course) so sometimes elect just to stay over and travel back home first thing Monday morning!
TravelDream
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Surely this has been a long term problem during the summer?
I certainly remember catching a Sunday Cambrian line train from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth around a decade ago. It arrived at Shrewsbury jam-packed and delayed. By the time those who wanted to get off were off, and those who wanted to get on got on, the delay had extended even further. It was also rather uncomfortable with the 158's poor A/C.
BurtonM
Member
On Bank Holidays, the railway runs a weekday service. There's plenty of space and it works well.
If it can do that, it should be able to run the same service on a Sunday. The demand is there.
If it can do that, it should be able to run the same service on a Sunday. The demand is there.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Depends where you are. In the North it's typically a Saturday service (which is normally but not always the same as Mon-Fri). In the London commuter area it's usually a Sunday service.
Not everyone, but a subset. I expect the emergency services to be operational on a weekend even if I don't have to work weekends (although I am effectively on standby) for example. There are some occupations where it is essential to have people working outside of standard office hours, and people applying for these jobs know this. I'm not convinced the railway is essential enough to society for it to be required to operate a full service seven days a week. If it did operate like that, we'd all have to pay for it through a combination of taxes and increased ticket prices because there would have to be an increase in the workforce.
Bletchleyite
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If we want to reduce car use, all week public transport has to be considered essential. If it is not, that says everything.
flitwickbeds
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Bingo! (My bold)Probably think the programmes on BBC 1 and ITV are actually produced on Xmas Day
Most clearly aren't but a few still are, like the news bulletins and continuity.
Why can't it be done for free? I doubt you'll find many people anywhere who get extra money for working on Sundays as long as they continue to do ~40 hours a week across the seven days. The only time I get paid any extra is if I go over 40 hours (paid at overtime rate per hour or part thereof), on Christmas Day, on Boxing Day, and a small amount (about £20) per night shift I do.
How do those subset of workers do their job if public transport isn't running? (I know that you're not saying it shouldn't run, just not a full service - but that might mean people can't get there in time, or their working day is extended by a couple of hours. For example there is a shift I do which, if it falls on a Sunday, I am unable to get there for the 0730 start, and have to swap with a colleague)? And (with memories of arguing with people on social media during lockdown v1 about how far the essential worker list should extend, and getting no satisfactory answers!) the essential workers need a whole other section of workers to be working to facilitate their jobs... Which then means a whole other section of society needs to be open.
I once saw an argument that the NHS, Police and Fire service should be the only ones - literally, the ONLY ones - who should be permitted to leave the house to work. What a ridiculous argument that was!
What do they do at the moment? I expect some will drive, some will have shifts that allow the use of public transport, some will live close to their workplace, and there may be other options. It is a good question, how do the emergency services workers who work in central London and can't afford to live there manage to get there to do shifts when there are no trains or buses? Taking the what-if argument to its extreme, we should have public transport running frequently 24/7, which I suspect is physically possible, but where does the money come from to pay for all the extra workforce required, and it still wouldn't be fully 24/7 because rail lines need to be closed for engineering work? It is the age old dilemma of wanting decent public services but no-one wants to throw more money at them, so we go down the route of regression as those services over time become underfunded and inadequate for their purpose.
I work in a heavily unionised professional 24/365 workplace - not the railway I hasten to add.
We have a fairly straightforward solution to the anti social shifts problem: those that have a routine liability to work outside "office" hours get paid an "unsocial hours" supplement to compensate. Those that don't routinely work unsocial hours (weekends, nights, bank holidays) get paid premium overtime if they are required to do so.
The system isn't perfect but is simple and largely considered fair.
The two key takeaways I would suggest that GBR should take note of are:
We have a fairly straightforward solution to the anti social shifts problem: those that have a routine liability to work outside "office" hours get paid an "unsocial hours" supplement to compensate. Those that don't routinely work unsocial hours (weekends, nights, bank holidays) get paid premium overtime if they are required to do so.
The system isn't perfect but is simple and largely considered fair.
The two key takeaways I would suggest that GBR should take note of are:
- Unsociable hours are valued
- Staffing levels should be based on the full service offering
dk1
Veteran Member
It's not the same. Many traincrew are going from lates to early shift Saturday to Monday. That greatly affects availability for Sunday morning turns in a way that it doesn't the Monday.
Staffing issues aside, while it’s not strictly true (at my TOC anyway) that the reason for a reduced service is to allow more maintenance to take place, it’s the opposite, we have less exams of a weekend, and less maintenance requests of a weekend, Sunday’s especially, don’t forget why would there more maintenance staff of a Sunday than a week
However, on a Sunday you have a complex job of balancing units, and keeping units spare due to exam mileage, which is one of the reasons the Sunday offering isn’t as good (staffing issues, aside of course).
More services = more units, you’d have to expect that maintenance of a evening and day during the week would have to greatly increase due to increased unit mileage.
It can be frustrating as instead of running a train service, you are in effect running a maintenance plan.
However, on a Sunday you have a complex job of balancing units, and keeping units spare due to exam mileage, which is one of the reasons the Sunday offering isn’t as good (staffing issues, aside of course).
More services = more units, you’d have to expect that maintenance of a evening and day during the week would have to greatly increase due to increased unit mileage.
It can be frustrating as instead of running a train service, you are in effect running a maintenance plan.
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