Harlow Local Plan - proposed Central Line extension

[BrianW]

The problem is that the deregulated bus network is just not attractive enough for a local planning authority to sink millions of pounds of Community Infrastructure Levy from new housing developments into, nor would it deliver the modal shift that would be required to make the transport case work for a massive increase in new homes in the area. If it were a regulated system like TfL then a step change in the attractiveness of the bus system could tempt some motorists out of their cars but probably not enough to avoid gridlock on the local road network. You can only build that number of new homes without costly improvements to the local road network if you can keep car use down. Very few local authorities want to start a road building programme.

Harlow Town station is not exactly well located for most of the town (was the New Town sited due to where the county boundary is ?) but extending the Central Line there would be a very expensive way of only slightly ameliorating the situation. As mentioned, no-one would ever use the Central Line to get from Harlow to London, and I doubt the traffic flow to Epping is sufficient.

I doubt it would pass the cost benefit ratio analysis, that was the cause of the Met extension to Watford Jcn failing, when it transpired that the actual costs associated with the project were at least double the original estimate, it failed the cost benefit ratio analysis too.

Bus services can be started up, modified, withdrawn a whole lot more easily and cheaply than rail with all its associated infrastructure.

Harlow's addition to London Underground proposed by council

A town's planners want to see the Central Line extended further into the county.

www.bbc.co.uk

I cannot see why TfL would have any interest in Harlow or Essex or Hertfordshire more widely, as with Watford. Clue TfL.
OK maybe worth some safeguarding in expectation of some great Section 106/ Community Infrastructure Levy payments, in due course. Metroland (or Centraland?) trumping Green Belt and NIMBYs? Unlikely.
Densification of Harlow, Epping, Ongar, Roding Valley first?! https://londonist.com/london/features/least-busy-underground-station-roding-valley.

 

[Mikey C]

Looking at the map I guess a lot of people on the south side of Harlow do drive to Epping as they are a long way from Harlow Town. Its not a completely stupid idea to extend the central line to South Harlow, the hospital and Harlow Town. Can't see it happening in the current financial climate!

Better public transport connections between South Harlow and the existing station would cover 95% of these journeys though

 

[DPQ]

Any proposed station would need to connect into the proposed Harlow Metro. (/sarcasm)

Harlow Council excited about proposal for new Metro system - Your Harlow

HARLOW is expanding. Our population is set to grow by 65% over the next 15-20 years.

www.yourharlow.com

An Exciting New Public Transport System – Harlow METRO - Harlow Labour Party - Harlow Labour Party

Harlow is expanding. Our population is set to grow by 65% over the next 15-20 years. To meet this exciting challenge, we need a radical sustainable transport solution that’s green, efficient and we can be proud of. Harlow Labour are proposing a transformational METRO system comprising...

www.harlowlabourparty.org

For note, Labour lost control of Harlow Council this year

Looking at the map I guess a lot of people on the south side of Harlow do drive to Epping as they are a long way from Harlow Town. Its not a completely stupid idea to extend the central line to South Harlow, the hospital and Harlow Town. Can't see it happening in the current financial climate!

They are looking to build a new Hospital to the east of the town, which I believe would close the existing site.

Cutting-edge robots set to work at new Princess Alexandra Hospital

Health chiefs unveil ambitious blueprint to make the new PAH by the new M11 junction 7a at Harlow “the most digitally advanced in the UK”.

www.bishopsstortfordindependent.co.uk

 

[LUYMun]

Harlow Labour is proposing a transformational METRO system comprising ultra-modern E-trams. Running on tyres along single track with passing places controlled by GPS, the trams will run mostly off-road but sometimes as through the Town Centre along existing routes.

The Harlow Metro scheme sounds even more perplexing than the Central Line extension. Its description of the "e-trams" is akin to a wireless trolleybus or an electric bus (Wright StreetCars, anyone?) with a dedicated busway! Nothing transformational to be proud of.

The fact that the pièce de résistance is a viaduct to carry the "e-trams" and pedestrians screams vanity project to me.

 

[Ianno87]

Crossrail 1 doesn't give you anymore capacity on GEML as is still two tracks on MLs north of Bow Jn, ELs still used by Crossrail 1.

Unless you ETCS-d the Main Lines north of Stratford to get the technical headway down.

 

[Class 170101]

Unless you ETCS-d the Main Lines north of Stratford to get the technical headway down.

Possibly though I'd like to see how it actually works in practise (on the ECML) before its rolled out more widely.

In any event I am not sure that peak time capacity is going to be the problem for a few years (if ever) whether it bw on the GEML, at Harlow or indeed elsewhere on the rail network.

 

[Nym]

Unless you ETCS-d the Main Lines north of Stratford to get the technical headway down.

ETCS is unlikely to reduce headways. Especially when you could just signal it properly in the first place.

 

[leytongabriel]

There was a plan some time ago to rebuild Epping station and greatly increase car parking provision, apparently because of increased traffic from the Harlow area because of the fares disparity between TfL Zone 6 and Greater Anglia. Isn't there a fares agreement between Essex County Council which has kept out-of-boundary stations on the Central Line within the zone system?
So I'd guess that this is a political move to highlight fares inequality. Harlow itself is not a wealthy town, being a London overspill 'New Town' and the station is not very conveniently sited on the northern edge of town.

 

[southern442]

I don't see the benefit of this. Nobody going to London would use the Central Line from Harlow

Epping has the largest car park on the Tube, due to people driving in from Harlow, Chelmsford and the like. Not saying it would/should happen, just noting that actually a lot of people going to London from Harlow and nearby towns already use the Central line, because obviously a Harlow to Liverpool Street season ticket will be considerably more expensive than driving to Epping in zone 6 and using your oyster. Obviously Harlow wouldn't be in zone 6 but hypothetically it would still probably be a cheaper option.

And if you wanted a connection to Stratford, surely a service via the Lea Valley Lines would be faster and more comfortable.

There already is a Harlow-Stratford connection twice an hour.

 

[THC]

Epping has the largest car park on the Tube, due to people driving in from Harlow, Chelmsford and the like.

Chelmsford? Unlikely. By the time you drive from Chelmo to Epping you could already be in Liverpool Street if you took the train. I get that Epping is a railhead for a fair part of mid-Essex but you're casting the net too widely IMO. (For the record, I live in Chelmsford and used to commute to/from the City of London).

THC

 

[Mikey C]

Epping has the largest car park on the Tube, due to people driving in from Harlow, Chelmsford and the like. Not saying it would/should happen, just noting that actually a lot of people going to London from Harlow and nearby towns already use the Central line, because obviously a Harlow to Liverpool Street season ticket will be considerably more expensive than driving to Epping in zone 6 and using your oyster. Obviously Harlow wouldn't be in zone 6 but hypothetically it would still probably be a cheaper option.

Epping in Zone 6 is distorting things here. How many people would come in this way if it was in the "correct" zone?

 

[leytongabriel]

I don't see the benefit of this. Nobody going to London would use the Central Line from Harlow, and if you wanted a connection to Stratford, surely a service via the Lea Valley Lines would be faster and more comfortable. I'd be surprised if there was major traffic between Harlow and the likes of Epping, Loughton and Woodford

Im just reporting what happened pre-Covid with the Epping car park filling all with Harlow area commuters. Wouldn't like to do it myself, but it's all about price and there is a big difference.

 

[Mikey C]

Im just reporting what happened pre-Covid with the Epping car park filling all with Harlow area commuters. Wouldn't like to do it myself, but it's all about price and there is a big difference.

I'm sure it happens, but the artificially cheap fares will be a major factor

 

[southern442]

Epping in Zone 6 is distorting things here. How many people would come in this way if it was in the "correct" zone?

I'm sure it happens, but the artificially cheap fares will be a major factor

So? The local council subsidise it being in zone 6, and I'm sure if Harlow wanted a tube extension so badly, they might be willing to fork out a little extra to have it in maybe Zone 7 or 8 instead of some faraway special fares zone. Comparatively speaking the fares would still probably be cheap.

 

[Busaholic]

So? The local council subsidise it being in zone 6, and I'm sure if Harlow wanted a tube extension so badly, they might be willing to fork out a little extra to have it in maybe Zone 7 or 8 instead of some faraway special fares zone. Comparatively speaking the fares would still probably be cheap.

Why should TfL, under a Mayor voted for by the residents of Greater London who pay for him and his entourage, be concerned to extend a tube line even further into Essex, especially when vitally needed tube extensions in such places as S.E.London are not going ahead?

 

[Aictos]

Why should TfL, under a Mayor voted for by the residents of Greater London who pay for him and his entourage, be concerned to extend a tube line even further into Essex, especially when vitally needed tube extensions in such places as S.E.London are not going ahead?

I agree with this, why extend the Central line when there are existing alternatives that are available when TfL and DfT should be looking at extending Victoria line to Herne Hill, Bakerloo to Bromley North, replacement of Bakerloo trains etc all needed before any extension of the Central line.

Even Crossrail 2 should be opened and in passenger service before Harlow sees the Central line as XR2 would send all the stopping services in the SW of London though to Potters Bar or Broxbourne.

 

[southern442]

Why should TfL, under a Mayor voted for by the residents of Greater London who pay for him and his entourage, be concerned to extend a tube line even further into Essex, especially when vitally needed tube extensions in such places as S.E.London are not going ahead?

If it has the business case and the potential to bring in more returns for TfL.

 

[Aictos]

If it has the business case and the potential to bring in more returns for TfL.

I disagree, there are far more pressing issues more deserving of funding and which have a better business case which should be prioritised over the Central line such as Crossrail 2 which would send a number of SWR stopping services to Broxbourne or New Southgate freeing up paths between Wimbledon and Waterloo for more mainline services, replacement of Bakerloo rolling stock as they're life expired or soon will be, extensions of both Victoria and Bakerloo lines which would increase capacity etc...

If Harlow want to extend the Central line to themselves then they should fully fund it themselves with no funding expected from TfL especially as they already have a decent rail service anyway.

 

[TRXsouth]

Funnily enough, I remember reading a book some time ago, set three hundred years in the future, where the London Underground was directly connected to the Paris Metro, could plans to connect to destinations as far as Harlow be a predilection to such ambitious plans as depicted in the book, the permutations and possibilities are immeasurable.

Sorry to scroll back on thread, but really intrigued by ‘book set 300 years in future where LU connected to Paris Metro.’ I enjoy sci-fi so any idea of this book’s title or author?

 

[Mikey C]

Funnily enough, I remember reading a book some time ago, set three hundred years in the future, where the London Underground was directly connected to the Paris Metro, could plans to connect to destinations as far as Harlow be a predilection to such ambitious plans as depicted in the book, the permutations and possibilities are immeasurable.

Gare du Nord is in TfL Zone 130 I assume. It should have been Zone 155, but Paris are subsidising the fares

 

[chorleyjeff]

Not suggesting this seriously but for the same cost, could Harlow Council pay for a lot of Uber journeys for Loughton-bound residents?

Probably correct. Some time ago it was calculated that providing taxis for all Furness line passsengers between Carnforth and Barrow would be cheaper than keeping the line open. I suspect the same for Oxenholme to Windermere.

 

[southern442]

I disagree, there are far more pressing issues more deserving of funding and which have a better business case which should be prioritised...

What are you disagreeing with? The idea that TfL would undertake a project if it had a strong business case?

I said IF it had a strong case. Not saying it does or doesn't. What I've been trying to say is that whilst no doubt there are many other pressing projects that you have mentioned that need seeing to as well, there are some legitimate arguments for why this could be worth looking at.

 

[Aictos]

What are you disagreeing with? The idea that TfL would undertake a project if it had a strong business case?

I said IF it had a strong case. Not saying it does or doesn't. What I've been trying to say is that whilst no doubt there are many other pressing projects that you have mentioned that need seeing to as well, there are some legitimate arguments for why this could be worth looking at.

I'm just saying there are more worthwhile projects more deserving of being completed then extending the Central Line especially as Harlow already has a perfectly acceptable national rail service.

 

[D365]

… extensions of both Victoria and Bakerloo lines which would increase capacity etc...

How would an extension of the Victoria increase its capacity?

 

[matt_world2004]

Why should TfL, under a Mayor voted for by the residents of Greater London who pay for him and his entourage, be concerned to extend a tube line even further into Essex, especially when vitally needed tube extensions in such places as S.E.London are not going ahead?

If Hertfordshire County Council want to pay for the extension to harlow then it should go ahead, but as the Croxley extension has shown Hertfordshire CC have a habit of stiffing TfL with the bill.

 

[Bald Rick]

If Hertfordshire County Council want to pay for the extension to harlow then it should go ahead, but as the Croxley extension has shown Hertfordshire CC have a habit of stiffing TfL with the bill.

Why would Hertfordshire want it? It’s in Essex!

 

[matt_world2004]

Why would Hertfordshire want it? It’s in Essex!

Oops my Geography is bad

 

[Aictos]

How would an extension of the Victoria increase its capacity?

I'm sure planners can work that one out but the line should always have continued to Herne Hill and not just Brixton for connectivity.

 

[D365]

I'm sure planners can work that one out but the line should always have continued to Herne Hill and not just Brixton for connectivity.

I thought the whole point of why the Victoria hasn’t been considered for extension, is that there isn’t room for more passengers.

 

[cle]

In theory, Crossrail 2 might have mitigated the Vauxhall masses - which in turn would free up Victoria too.

The reality is that the Victoria line would basically still be full from Brixton and Stockwell (ie Morden up) alone.

Also, Herne Hill is fetished but it’s not a huge interchange or local demand driver either. Far better to go down Brixton Hill towards Streatham, where many more people live. Attrition somewhat, as many of those bus to Brixton now though - but half of Herne Hill’s catchment is a park! And most would stay on until Victoria - or TL folks would need the City anyway.

Brixton serves just fine, given the patterns today.