Harlow Local Plan - proposed Central Line extension

[evergreenadam]

It might be unfunded and TfL might not be interested, but it actually seems like a good idea. Only about 7 miles and there are already a lot of people rail heading by car and bus from Harlow to Epping. I wouldn’t suggest it as suitable for end to end travel from Harlow to Central London but for local travel within Essex/East London it would be useful. Post Crossrail the Central Line might also have sufficient spare capacity to deal with the increased patronage into Stratford that would result.

Frankly if you had a national rail line terminating 7 miles short of a town with a population the size of Harlow, wouldn’t you want the two to be connected? It would certainly add some useful contra peak and off peak demand to the Epping Line, the Essex parts of which probably don’t currently break even.

Harlow's addition to London Underground proposed by council https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58172373

 

[Domh245]

I've got distinct Metropolitan Line extension vibes for this!

 

[MikeWh]

The main reason people head to Epping is that it is located in an extended zone 6. That would have to change if the line was extended to Harlow.

 

[rebmcr]

Frankly if you had a national rail line terminating 7 miles short of a town with a population the size of Harlow, wouldn’t you want the two to be connected?

Harlow is already connected to the National Rail network, with direct trains to London.

 

[LUYMun]

I think an increase in subsidy to the local bus routes between Harlow and Epping might be more economically viable than a London Underground line...

 

[Nym]

Well, I do have to wonder where they'll get the trains to run it even if it did happen.

 

[Domh245]

Well, I do have to wonder where they'll get the trains to run it even if it did happen.

Time it well and it may coincide with 92TS fleet replacement (late 2030s?) - could even end up the full MLEx experience and wind up with a bonus train for services planned but not realised

 

[Nym]

Quite.
I still very much doubt it will happen as the core can't accept the additional loadings and there's already plentyful NR services.

 

[Mikey C]

I don't see the benefit of this. Nobody going to London would use the Central Line from Harlow, and if you wanted a connection to Stratford, surely a service via the Lea Valley Lines would be faster and more comfortable. I'd be surprised if there was major traffic between Harlow and the likes of Epping, Loughton and Woodford

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Funnily enough, I remember reading a book some time ago, set three hundred years in the future, where the London Underground was directly connected to the Paris Metro, could plans to connect to destinations as far as Harlow be a predilection to such ambitious plans as depicted in the book, the permutations and possibilities are immeasurable.

 

[DanNCL]

There'd be more benefit to reopening the line to Ongar as part of the Central line than this, at least the line to Ongar is already there and unlike Harlow there are no regular rail links to Ongar. I don't think reopening the line to Ongar would be feasible, therefore I certainly don't think an extension to Harlow would be either.

 

[evergreenadam]

Harlow is already connected to the National Rail network, with direct trains to London.

That wasn’t the point, we know it’s connected to the National Rail network. I was using the analogy of National Rail lines where similar proposals have been mooted to make better use of lines which terminate short of population centres e.g. Skelmersdale, which is another new town where nobody thought trains would ever be needed.

There'd be more benefit to reopening the line to Ongar as part of the Central line than this, at least the line to Ongar is already there and unlike Harlow there are no regular rail links to Ongar. I don't think reopening the line to Ongar would be feasible, therefore I certainly don't think an extension to Harlow would be either.

Surely they are totally different in terms of scale? One is a growing town of 60k+ and and commercial centre, the other is a village in rural Essex.

 

[Busaholic]

Seeing as we're talking miles of new track, why not extend the Shenfield branch of Crossrail to Harlow and produce that Harlow to Romford link that so many transport planners have seemed to want over the years without any proof that it was really needed?

 

[Bald Rick]

They’ve been banging on about this for ages. It’s the worst type of crayon ins - political crayoning!

Zero chance.

 

[PeterC]

If plans for substantial development on North Weald Airfield are ever resurected then there would be a case for extension onto the site.

 

[JonathanH]

To be fair, this would appear serve the southern part of Harlow whereas the West Anglia line runs to the north. It might enable some inward commuting to Harlow from the Central Line that currently isn't possible.

However, most of these proposals around London seem to be predicated on an idea that Zone 6 would be extended outwards to reduce fares.

All Green Belt land between Epping and Harlow though so it isn't even as if development could fund the extension. I assume it would have to go in underground to get into Harlow centre.

 

[Blurb]

If there is a case for this I think it rests on the level of demand for commuting/travel to Harlow and how many are doing this from Epping/Loughton/Woodford etc currently by car. Definitely not about journeys to/from central London. If there’s to be a shift from car to public transport there’s a need for additional provision.

 

[Class 170101]

And assumes that travel plans post covid look similar to those pre-covid which I remain to be cvonvinced they will ever be thus.

Personally I think Harlow Council need to focus their energies jointly with TfL on getting WAML four tracked at least as far as Broxbourne Jn north ahead of Crossrail 2 being built - which I believe is now decades away.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally I think Harlow Council need to focus their energies jointly with TfL on getting WAML four tracked at least as far as Broxbourne Jn north ahead of Crossrail 2 being built - which I believe is now decades away.

Well that’s not going to happen. 4 tracking without Crossrail 2 doesn’t provide Harlow with any more trains, all it does is enable those that do run from Harlow to get to London a couple of minutes quicker. Hardly worth spending a couple of billion on.

 

[Class 170101]

Well that’s not going to happen. 4 tracking without Crossrail 2 doesn’t provide Harlow with any more trains, all it does is enable those that do run from Harlow to get to London a couple of minutes quicker. Hardly worth spending a couple of billion on.

Disagree. Crossrail 1 gives space on the Eastern side at Liverpool Street so potentially some services can shift over. However there is scope for 6tph at Stratford of which 4tph are used today and two of those only head to Meridian Water so these services would be projected north from their current terminus.

 

[Ianno87]

Disagree. Crossrail 1 gives space on the Eastern side at Liverpool Street so potentially some services can shift over. .

If you choose not to use that capacity for GEML Main Line services which, pre-Covid at least, had an arguably greater demand need.

 

[Class 170101]

If you choose not to use that capacity for GEML Main Line services which, pre-Covid at least, had an arguably greater demand need.

Crossrail 1 doesn't give you anymore capacity on GEML as is still two tracks on MLs north of Bow Jn, ELs still used by Crossrail 1.

 

[Bald Rick]

Disagree. Crossrail 1 gives space on the Eastern side at Liverpool Street so potentially some services can shift over. However there is scope for 6tph at Stratford of which 4tph are used today and two of those only head to Meridian Water so these services would be projected north from their current terminus.

You can disagree all you like... but Stratford max terminating capacity from Tottenham Hale is 4tph. Yes, the Meridian water services could be projected north - but not to Harlow.

 

[alex397]

I find it unlikely this will happen, as others have said.

The existing railway line will offer a faster and more comfortable journey into London, and I can’t see a huge amount of local journeys being taken.
Over the years there have been various failed attempts at getting a direct bus route from Loughton to Harlow, and I can’t see a huge demand for travel between places like Leytonstone, Woodford or Theydon Bois to Harlow.

There is an existing commercial bus route 420/420A branded as ‘Central Connect’ which is frequent (well, frequent for that part of Essex with high car use) and has a fairly quick journey. Money would be better spent improving very poor bus infrastructure, and subsidising more frequent evening and Sunday journeys. I’m sure it would be ever so slightly cheaper than building a railway extension, providing enough trains and subsidising the line

 

[telstarbox]

Not suggesting this seriously but for the same cost, could Harlow Council pay for a lot of Uber journeys for Loughton-bound residents?

 

[evergreenadam]

The problem is that the deregulated bus network is just not attractive enough for a local planning authority to sink millions of pounds of Community Infrastructure Levy from new housing developments into, nor would it deliver the modal shift that would be required to make the transport case work for a massive increase in new homes in the area. If it were a regulated system like TfL then a step change in the attractiveness of the bus system could tempt some motorists out of their cars but probably not enough to avoid gridlock on the local road network. You can only build that number of new homes without costly improvements to the local road network if you can keep car use down. Very few local authorities want to start a road building programme.

 

[matt_world2004]

It might be unfunded and TfL might not be interested, but it actually seems like a good idea. Only about 7 miles and there are already a lot of people rail heading by car and bus from Harlow to Epping. I wouldn’t suggest it as suitable for end to end travel from Harlow to Central London but for local travel within Essex/East London it would be useful. Post Crossrail the Central Line might also have sufficient spare capacity to deal with the increased patronage into Stratford that would result.

Frankly if you had a national rail line terminating 7 miles short of a town with a population the size of Harlow, wouldn’t you want the two to be connected? It would certainly add some useful contra peak and off peak demand to the Epping Line, the Essex parts of which probably don’t currently break even.

Harlow's addition to London Underground proposed by council https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-58172373

7 miles is about half the length of the Victoria line for a metro service with its lower speeds its quite distance

 

[Falcon1200]

Harlow Town station is not exactly well located for most of the town (was the New Town sited due to where the county boundary is ?) but extending the Central Line there would be a very expensive way of only slightly ameliorating the situation. As mentioned, no-one would ever use the Central Line to get from Harlow to London, and I doubt the traffic flow to Epping is sufficient.

 

[LU_timetabler]

I doubt it would pass the cost benefit ratio analysis, that was the cause of the Met extension to Watford Jcn failing, when it transpired that the actual costs associated with the project were at least double the original estimate, it failed the cost benefit ratio analysis too.

 

[jfisher21]

Looking at the map I guess a lot of people on the south side of Harlow do drive to Epping as they are a long way from Harlow Town. Its not a completely stupid idea to extend the central line to South Harlow, the hospital and Harlow Town. Can't see it happening in the current financial climate!