Skelmersdale station proposals & suggestions

[61653 HTAFC]

From an outsider point of view you could argue that the way forward for Skem is incorporation into Wigan. The centre of Skelmersdale is only ten minutes from Orrell by car.

Despite the historic links to Liverpool a lot of water had flowed under the bridge in the past fifty years.

Skelmersdale still feels more "scouse" than even neighbouring Ormskirk, despite the latter having better links into Liverpool. If Skem were to join Wigan, it would also join Greater Manchester which would just be absurd.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Skelmersdale still feels more "scouse" than even neighbouring Ormskirk, despite the latter having better links into Liverpool. If Skem were to join Wigan, it would also join Greater Manchester which would just be absurd.

Skelmersdale was mentioned in the Domesday Book and for hundreds of years, was only known as a Lancashire town. It only became connected with Liverpool in fairly recent historical times by the removal of large numbers of Liverpool people into its environs.

Does anyone remember the song which had a chorus of...
"Don't want to go to Kirkby,
Don't want to go to Speke,
Don't want to go from all I know.
In Back Buchanan Street".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Skelmersdale still feels more "scouse" than even neighbouring Ormskirk, despite the latter having better links into Liverpool. If Skem were to join Wigan, it would also join Greater Manchester which would just be absurd.

Skem and Bletchley (or MK more widely) have a bit in common in that regard. When somewhere is built up as an overspill to move people out of slums in a nearby city, those who move tend to have a strong identity from their origins, part of which is keeping or even exaggerating their accent. The same thing exists round here in a lot of people having a very strong "mockney" accent which isn't what was previously native. Scottish accents in Corby are similar. Ormskirk (and in particular Aughton) are different, because (give or take the genuine Lancastrians) "posh Scousers" have tended to move out that way and deliberately "poshened" themselves to differentiate from those further south - it's not quite as expensive, but it's basically the same deal as the parts of leafy Cheshire near to south Manchester.

As for what to do with Skem, incorporating all of West Lancashire borough, which includes Skem and Ormskirk, in the "Liverpool City Region" as Halton has been (another silly omission from the original Metropolitan County) would make tremendous sense. It could well happen as Lancs pushes towards unitary authorities.

 

[WatcherZero]

Merseytravel has already got involved in funding development work for both North Wales and Lancashire projects for the simple reason as a Met county it has more money to spend than County councils.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Merseytravel has already got involved in funding development work for both North Wales and Lancashire projects for the simple reason as a Met county it has more money to spend than County councils.

Now that the franchising system seems to be coming to an end eventually, will Merseytravel still be able to use its finances on such matters in future?

 

[childwallblues]

Merseytravel has already got involved in funding development work for both North Wales and Lancashire projects for the simple reason as a Met county it has more money to spend than County councils.

Was not the Halton Curve and electrification to both Chester and Ellesmere Port prime examples of that?

 

[Djgr]

Merseytravel has already got involved in funding development work for both North Wales and Lancashire projects for the simple reason as a Met county it has more money to spend than County councils.

But they have also required funding from the other relevant authorities e.g. Cheshire and there also has to be perceived benefit for the people of Liverpool City Region.

Skem and Bletchley (or MK more widely) have a bit in common in that regard. When somewhere is built up as an overspill to move people out of slums in a nearby city, those who move tend to have a strong identity from their origins, part of which is keeping or even exaggerating their accent. The same thing exists round here in a lot of people having a very strong "mockney" accent which isn't what was previously native. Scottish accents in Corby are similar. Ormskirk (and in particular Aughton) are different, because (give or take the genuine Lancastrians) "posh Scousers" have tended to move out that way and deliberately "poshened" themselves to differentiate from those further south - it's not quite as expensive, but it's basically the same deal as the parts of leafy Cheshire near to south Manchester.

As for what to do with Skem, incorporating all of West Lancashire borough, which includes Skem and Ormskirk, in the "Liverpool City Region" as Halton has been (another silly omission from the original Metropolitan County) would make tremendous sense. It could well happen as Lancs pushes towards unitary authorities.

I believe that was Halton's choice in the early 1970s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that the franchising system seems to be coming to an end eventually, will Merseytravel still be able to use its finances on such matters in future?

Its aim appears to be to take Merseyrail out of the national system entirely as per Metrolink, so I would say yes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Its aim appears to be to take Merseyrail out of the national system entirely as per Metrolink, so I would say yes.

The difference there is that Merseyrail has purely heavy rail to deal with whereas the Manchester Metrolink system currently purely concerns itself with light rail such as Blackpool Tramway, Nottingham Express Transit, Edinburgh Trams et al and has never been since existance in its formation as anything to do with a heavy rail franchising system (except in the mind of Andy Burnham).

 

[urbophile]

Skelmersdale was mentioned in the Domesday Book and for hundreds of years, was only known as a Lancashire town. It only became connected with Liverpool in fairly recent historical times by the removal of large numbers of Liverpool people into its environs.

Does anyone remember the song which had a chorus of...
"Don't want to go to Kirkby,
Don't want to go to Speke,
Don't want to go from all I know.
In Back Buchanan Street".

Second line is as I remember, 'To Skelmersdale or Speke'

The difference there is that Merseyrail has purely heavy rail to deal with whereas the Manchester Metrolink system currently purely concerns itself with light rail such as Blackpool Tramway, Nottingham Express Transit, Edinburgh Trams et al and has never been since existance in its formation as anything to do with a heavy rail franchising system (except in the mind of Andy Burnham).

A closer parallel would be with London Overground.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Second line is as I remember, 'To Skelmersdale or Speke'

Thanks for that. At the age of 76, my memory is not what it once was.

Still, that song did express the feelings of large numbers of people who were moved en bloc from inner-city long established communities. A similar event in the Manchester area was commemorated by my old school chum Mike Harding, a folk singer like me in those far-off days, in the chorus of his song....
"Oh dear, what can the matter be,
Some silly bugger has sent us to Hattersley,
We've been up Hattersley three weeks on Saturday,
Oh I wish we were'nt here"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for that. At the age of 76, my memory is not what it once was.

Still, that song did express the feelings of large numbers of people who were moved en bloc from inner-city long established communities. A similar event in the Manchester area was commemorated by my old school chum Mike Harding, a folk singer like me in those far-off days, in the chorus of his song....
"Oh dear, what can the matter be,
Some silly bugger has sent us to Hattersley,
We've been up Hattersley three weeks on Saturday,
Oh I wish we were'nt here"

Hattersley is an odd place - an abject dump among beautiful scenery.

 

[urbophile]

Hattersley is an odd place - an abject dump among beautiful scenery.

When I hear that name (not knowing the town) all I can think of is a tub of lard.

 

[domcoop7]

When I hear that name (not knowing the town) all I can think of is a tub of lard.

Knowing Hattersley as it was in the late 80s early 90s (never been since), you're not far off! Think Skem, but without the glamour!

As for the Merseyside thing, back in 1972, nobody really had much of an idea what to do. It was a bit of a mess and still is.

By far the best thing would have been for none of the changes to have taken place, with everybody keeping their own local council, and with a transport planning body overseeing transit to the major cities. Skem is close to Liverpool in spirit, but it's close to Wigan in proximity. And you'll find if you go to Skem (as I do) that there's a younger crowd there. New houses are being built all over the place and there's lots of newly arrived people from Eastern Europe (I know of four East European food shops in the town) and I doubt they care a fig about Merseyside or not.

Wigan itself is ambiguous, and certainly the western side probably has more affinity with Liverpool than Manchester. My neighbours (in their 80s) are originally from Liverpool and indeed I lived in Whiston before I moved here. When Liverpool (the football team) win, you get the flags and the fireworks all around here.

If you look at some (non local council) forms of administration, you can see how in the 1960s it may well have been thought that Wigan would be closer to Merseyside. The WN postcode area, for example, is small and self-contained and runs into what is now St Helens Borough. It includes Wigan and Skelmersdale. I imagine that somebody at some point thought that 'L', 'WA' and 'WN' postcodes would be part of a "Liverpool City Region" back in the 1960s ('L' includes Orsmkirk but not Southport, which was part of the early plans for Merseyside) The court service administration (which I am familiar with due to my job) had Wigan civil cases dealt with by judges headed from Liverpool until quite recently for civil matters (since 2017 I think it is, it was transferred to Manchester), and serious cases and appeals from Wigan in criminal matters go to Liverpool Crown Court.

In reality, here on the ground, like I say my view is it would have better if we'd kept the pre-1974 system, without the Balkanisation of the North West into competing entities. Wigan, Warrington, and St Helens are close towns with some connection and with travel for work and shopping, yet because they're deemed to be in Greater Manchester, Cheshire(!) and Merseyside, there's no co-ordination of links and no saver tickets, etc. When I lived in St Helens, people went to Manchester, Wigan, Warrington and Liverpool. In fact it was quite an annoyance that you had to get a bus or taxi to the Junction to get the Manchester train, and the tickets to Liverpool are subsidised but to Manchester not, despite not being a great deal further.

Now I'm probably going to get told off by the mods for the rest of this post, but it is tangentially relevant to some of the points raised above.

Without wanting to go substantially off topic, the local government reforms were very much London led. It wasn't locals pressing for new councils and new boundaries.

There was thinking in the 1960s in central government, that local authorities were too small, and the new-fanged technology of "computers" would need to be adopted, but wouldn't work due to the cost and expense without some economies of scale (amongst other things).

Back then, large towns and cities had their own unitary authorities (i.e. exactly like today), and everywhere else was run by a combination of County and local councils, but the local councils were much smaller than today's authorities. Skelmersdale and Upholland, for example, was one council all on its own. Think of how things are in certain states in the USA, where Smalltownsville Tennessee with a population of a few thousand can call itself a "City", have it's own council, police force, etc.

Having rationalised local government in Greater London, they commissioned a report to do the same in the rest of England, the Redcliffe-Maud report published in 1969.

Redcliffe-Maud proposed regional authorities for Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham,similar to today's "City Regions" but bigger, and unitaries everywhere else. But it was very much civil servants sat in London crayoning on a map. The report was never implemented.

For transport planning, it was realised that the large cities would benefit from cross-borough authorities, and the PTEs came into being in the late 1960s. However, these covered a much smaller area than the Regional councils envisaged in Redcliffe-Maud. For example, Merseyside PTE included Neston in Cheshire, and Hale Village (which aren't included today, except in the case of Hale, via Halton being in the Liverpool CIty Region), but didn't include St Helens or Southport (and neither Skem or Runcorn). SELNEC PTE for Manchester didn't include Wigan

Then local government reared its head again under Ted Heath and a new reorganisation was planned, with dual level county and borough councils everywhere. Some horse-trading went on as the local councils (which remember were much small in those days) sought to decide whether they'd be better off being subsumed into council "X" or council "Y", although in much of the country it was pretty obvious where authorities would be, based on the mid-sized towns.

Southport, which under the old system was a County Borough, with powers over everything in their area, risked being merged into a West Lancs borough, with some of their powers lost to the county. So they specifically petitioned to be incorporated in Merseyside (which as a "Metropolitan" county would give them more power). It backfired though, because the District councils weren't decided until after the County boundaries were fixed, and so they got what they wanted being in Merseyside but were bitterly disappointed when the borough was drawn up merging them with Bootle since they ended up with less autonomy than they would have had as being the centrepoint of West Lancashire. They've moaned on and off about it ever since - and in the early 90s, when it was reviewed again, the Boundary Commission were close to recommending they be taken out of Merseyside.

Skelmersdale and Upholland was originally slated to join Merseyside (and I believe Ormskirk too), but in the end didn't - probably (although when I've looked into it I've found nothing recorded to give the final reason) to put the population up in that part of Lancashire given that Southport had been taken out. But again, this wasn't a question of locals really being consulted. It was decided from on high as to what it looked like on a map.

That part of Lancashire was a bit of a mess for the planners in London, because it's spread out mix or suburban and semi-rural, with the odd town but no "obvious" answer. Orrell was given to Greater Manchester (again, I've read documents in the past showing there was some debate over this) and Billinge & Winstanley was split down the middle, half to Merseyside and half to Greater Manchester.

Once the counties had been decided, the districts were planned, and there was still some debate over those. Prescot & Huyton was going to be given to St Helens. Halewood and Kirkby would have gone to Liverpool. There are debates in Parliament recorded in Hansard when none other than Harold Wilson said he thought this was wrong because people in Huyton eat scouse and watch football, and people in St Helens eat hotpot and watch rugby. (Yes this was actually the basis upon which council boundaries were drawn up!) There were also complaints that Lancashire County Council, via it's ratepayers, had just paid for new road and schools in Halewood and Kirkby (think "County Road, Kirkby" for example), and it would be unfair for Liverpool - then seen as quite a wealthy authority - to suddenly get all these assets they didn't pay for. So leaving those out of Liverpool, and leaving Prescot and Huyton out of St Helens, there was a strip of no-man's land between, which was created into a new council - Knowsley council. Knowsley was then, and is now, a bit of a mess of an authority, neither one thing nor the other, and the Boundary Commission came very close to recommending it be abolished in 1989. (Sadly they didn't and it remains one of the most deprived areas of the country with one of the most poorly performing local authorities - it's a mess that's over 14 miles from one end to the other and takes 20 minutes on a motorway in clear traffic to get from one side to the other).

Just over 10 years later the County Councils were abolished and less than 10 years after that further tweaks took place. Some areas were taken out of Merseyside at the point (Simonswood village near Kirkby being one), and lines redrawn (Knowsley in particular had very random boundaries that were straightened to follow roads, and Billinge had a more sensible boundary put into place between the Merseyside and Greater Manchester parts, with the village of King's Moss transferring to Merseyside).

And since then it's been a further mess with random local government changes - some districts abolished (Cheshire East & West), some counties abolished (Cleveland, Avon and later Berkshire), some unitary authorities created in the middle of non-unitary counties, and so on.

And then Liverpool City Region was created (in shadow form in 2013-2014, and formally in 2015). Both West Lancs and Warrington councils have "observer" status on that authority. As the legislation existed at the time it was created, West Lancs couldn't become full members even if they wanted (and I think they did want) because the powers didn't exist for Lancashire County Council (who also have responsibility) to join. Since then, the legislation has been amended and the powers do now exist, but they've gone cold on the idea. Part of it is politics - the political style of the authority is quite different even to the Labour party in West Lancs, let alone the Conservatives who ran the council up to 2015. Also they now want to put their lot in with getting a unitary authority in Lancashire. Halton seems to have gone cold to some extent too, even though they are part of the authority. The original plans were for Halton to become much more integrated into Liverpool City Region, with for example Merseytravel taking over public transport (which has been put on hold - Halton retain their own public transport department, even though they brand bus shelters and rail stations with Merseytravel and accept Merseytravel bus tickets). And of course there's now an elected mayor, who I can't see wanting to risk his power being diluted by encouraging West Lancs and Warrington to join and to take on new voters who may be less sympathetic to his particular brand of politics!

 

[childwallblues]

Very interesting comments from Domcoop.
Both Runcorn and Winsford were overflow towns for South Liverpool but in their favour was that both were situated on the West Coast Main Line between Liverpool and Crewe which had been electrified in 1961 and had a decent railway service from the two towns into Liverpool. The Over estate lies alongside the railway just north of Winsford Station and was the main area for the displaced Liverpool families. However these days it looks rather depressed.

 

[Djgr]

Knowing Hattersley as it was in the late 80s early 90s (never been since), you're not far off! Think Skem, but without the glamour!

As for the Merseyside thing, back in 1972, nobody really had much of an idea what to do. It was a bit of a mess and still is.

By far the best thing would have been for none of the changes to have taken place, with everybody keeping their own local council, and with a transport planning body overseeing transit to the major cities. Skem is close to Liverpool in spirit, but it's close to Wigan in proximity. And you'll find if you go to Skem (as I do) that there's a younger crowd there. New houses are being built all over the place and there's lots of newly arrived people from Eastern Europe (I know of four East European food shops in the town) and I doubt they care a fig about Merseyside or not.

Wigan itself is ambiguous, and certainly the western side probably has more affinity with Liverpool than Manchester. My neighbours (in their 80s) are originally from Liverpool and indeed I lived in Whiston before I moved here. When Liverpool (the football team) win, you get the flags and the fireworks all around here.

If you look at some (non local council) forms of administration, you can see how in the 1960s it may well have been thought that Wigan would be closer to Merseyside. The WN postcode area, for example, is small and self-contained and runs into what is now St Helens Borough. It includes Wigan and Skelmersdale. I imagine that somebody at some point thought that 'L', 'WA' and 'WN' postcodes would be part of a "Liverpool City Region" back in the 1960s ('L' includes Orsmkirk but not Southport, which was part of the early plans for Merseyside) The court service administration (which I am familiar with due to my job) had Wigan civil cases dealt with by judges headed from Liverpool until quite recently for civil matters (since 2017 I think it is, it was transferred to Manchester), and serious cases and appeals from Wigan in criminal matters go to Liverpool Crown Court.

In reality, here on the ground, like I say my view is it would have better if we'd kept the pre-1974 system, without the Balkanisation of the North West into competing entities. Wigan, Warrington, and St Helens are close towns with some connection and with travel for work and shopping, yet because they're deemed to be in Greater Manchester, Cheshire(!) and Merseyside, there's no co-ordination of links and no saver tickets, etc. When I lived in St Helens, people went to Manchester, Wigan, Warrington and Liverpool. In fact it was quite an annoyance that you had to get a bus or taxi to the Junction to get the Manchester train, and the tickets to Liverpool are subsidised but to Manchester not, despite not being a great deal further.

Now I'm probably going to get told off by the mods for the rest of this post, but it is tangentially relevant to some of the points raised above.

Without wanting to go substantially off topic, the local government reforms were very much London led. It wasn't locals pressing for new councils and new boundaries.

There was thinking in the 1960s in central government, that local authorities were too small, and the new-fanged technology of "computers" would need to be adopted, but wouldn't work due to the cost and expense without some economies of scale (amongst other things).

Back then, large towns and cities had their own unitary authorities (i.e. exactly like today), and everywhere else was run by a combination of County and local councils, but the local councils were much smaller than today's authorities. Skelmersdale and Upholland, for example, was one council all on its own. Think of how things are in certain states in the USA, where Smalltownsville Tennessee with a population of a few thousand can call itself a "City", have it's own council, police force, etc.

Having rationalised local government in Greater London, they commissioned a report to do the same in the rest of England, the Redcliffe-Maud report published in 1969.

Redcliffe-Maud proposed regional authorities for Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham,similar to today's "City Regions" but bigger, and unitaries everywhere else. But it was very much civil servants sat in London crayoning on a map. The report was never implemented.

For transport planning, it was realised that the large cities would benefit from cross-borough authorities, and the PTEs came into being in the late 1960s. However, these covered a much smaller area than the Regional councils envisaged in Redcliffe-Maud. For example, Merseyside PTE included Neston in Cheshire, and Hale Village (which aren't included today, except in the case of Hale, via Halton being in the Liverpool CIty Region), but didn't include St Helens or Southport (and neither Skem or Runcorn). SELNEC PTE for Manchester didn't include Wigan

Then local government reared its head again under Ted Heath and a new reorganisation was planned, with dual level county and borough councils everywhere. Some horse-trading went on as the local councils (which remember were much small in those days) sought to decide whether they'd be better off being subsumed into council "X" or council "Y", although in much of the country it was pretty obvious where authorities would be, based on the mid-sized towns.

Southport, which under the old system was a County Borough, with powers over everything in their area, risked being merged into a West Lancs borough, with some of their powers lost to the county. So they specifically petitioned to be incorporated in Merseyside (which as a "Metropolitan" county would give them more power). It backfired though, because the District councils weren't decided until after the County boundaries were fixed, and so they got what they wanted being in Merseyside but were bitterly disappointed when the borough was drawn up merging them with Bootle since they ended up with less autonomy than they would have had as being the centrepoint of West Lancashire. They've moaned on and off about it ever since - and in the early 90s, when it was reviewed again, the Boundary Commission were close to recommending they be taken out of Merseyside.

Skelmersdale and Upholland was originally slated to join Merseyside (and I believe Ormskirk too), but in the end didn't - probably (although when I've looked into it I've found nothing recorded to give the final reason) to put the population up in that part of Lancashire given that Southport had been taken out. But again, this wasn't a question of locals really being consulted. It was decided from on high as to what it looked like on a map.

That part of Lancashire was a bit of a mess for the planners in London, because it's spread out mix or suburban and semi-rural, with the odd town but no "obvious" answer. Orrell was given to Greater Manchester (again, I've read documents in the past showing there was some debate over this) and Billinge & Winstanley was split down the middle, half to Merseyside and half to Greater Manchester.

Once the counties had been decided, the districts were planned, and there was still some debate over those. Prescot & Huyton was going to be given to St Helens. Halewood and Kirkby would have gone to Liverpool. There are debates in Parliament recorded in Hansard when none other than Harold Wilson said he thought this was wrong because people in Huyton eat scouse and watch football, and people in St Helens eat hotpot and watch rugby. (Yes this was actually the basis upon which council boundaries were drawn up!) There were also complaints that Lancashire County Council, via it's ratepayers, had just paid for new road and schools in Halewood and Kirkby (think "County Road, Kirkby" for example), and it would be unfair for Liverpool - then seen as quite a wealthy authority - to suddenly get all these assets they didn't pay for. So leaving those out of Liverpool, and leaving Prescot and Huyton out of St Helens, there was a strip of no-man's land between, which was created into a new council - Knowsley council. Knowsley was then, and is now, a bit of a mess of an authority, neither one thing nor the other, and the Boundary Commission came very close to recommending it be abolished in 1989. (Sadly they didn't and it remains one of the most deprived areas of the country with one of the most poorly performing local authorities - it's a mess that's over 14 miles from one end to the other and takes 20 minutes on a motorway in clear traffic to get from one side to the other).

Just over 10 years later the County Councils were abolished and less than 10 years after that further tweaks took place. Some areas were taken out of Merseyside at the point (Simonswood village near Kirkby being one), and lines redrawn (Knowsley in particular had very random boundaries that were straightened to follow roads, and Billinge had a more sensible boundary put into place between the Merseyside and Greater Manchester parts, with the village of King's Moss transferring to Merseyside).

And since then it's been a further mess with random local government changes - some districts abolished (Cheshire East & West), some counties abolished (Cleveland, Avon and later Berkshire), some unitary authorities created in the middle of non-unitary counties, and so on.

And then Liverpool City Region was created (in shadow form in 2013-2014, and formally in 2015). Both West Lancs and Warrington councils have "observer" status on that authority. As the legislation existed at the time it was created, West Lancs couldn't become full members even if they wanted (and I think they did want) because the powers didn't exist for Lancashire County Council (who also have responsibility) to join. Since then, the legislation has been amended and the powers do now exist, but they've gone cold on the idea. Part of it is politics - the political style of the authority is quite different even to the Labour party in West Lancs, let alone the Conservatives who ran the council up to 2015. Also they now want to put their lot in with getting a unitary authority in Lancashire. Halton seems to have gone cold to some extent too, even though they are part of the authority. The original plans were for Halton to become much more integrated into Liverpool City Region, with for example Merseytravel taking over public transport (which has been put on hold - Halton retain their own public transport department, even though they brand bus shelters and rail stations with Merseytravel and accept Merseytravel bus tickets). And of course there's now an elected mayor, who I can't see wanting to risk his power being diluted by encouraging West Lancs and Warrington to join and to take on new voters who may be less sympathetic to his particular brand of politics!

A really interesting piece of work about how we got here and today's political realities.

Clearly there is a problem with Skelmersdale and the solution needs to consider the value or otherwise of a focus on how it came into being.

 

[mcnw35282]

Would it not be too far fetched to assume that Skem would be included in merseytravel's ticketing scheme? (you can travel to Ormskirk, Chester and Ellesmere Port on an all zones saveaway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not be too far fetched to assume that Skem would be included in merseytravel's ticketing scheme? (you can travel to Ormskirk, Chester and Ellesmere Port on an all zones saveaway)

If operated by Merseyrail I would be amazed if it was not.

 

[Djgr]

If operated by Merseyrail I would be amazed if it was not.

But don't buy your ticket just yet.

As was stated in the very first posts the Business Case has come out unusually as poor, probably not helped by lack of evidence of significant existing public transport flows between Skelmersdale and Liverpool.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would it not be too far fetched to assume that Skem would be included in merseytravel's ticketing scheme? (you can travel to Ormskirk, Chester and Ellesmere Port on an all zones saveaway)

If operated by Merseyrail I would be amazed if it was not.

And if M'rail extends to Wrexham as well?

I wouldn't be astonished to find the Saveaway being cut back to Merseyside proper (or possibly extended to city-region-proper) or going up quite a lot in price to cover the extensions. The balance between simplicity of use and cost could change.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And if M'rail extends to Wrexham as well?

Have Transport for Wales ever issued any formal comment with regards to the matter mentioned above?

 

[Corriman]

But don't buy your ticket just yet.

As was stated in the very first posts the Business Case has come out unusually as poor, probably not helped by lack of evidence of significant existing public transport flows between Skelmersdale and Liverpool.

Existing public transport, then you mean the 90 minutes bus journey. I suspect the evidence is correct.
What the evidence doesn't or can't show is the amount of residents who make their way to Ormskirk or Maghull stations by whatever means (bus,drive,taxi) and get a train.
The evidence that shows Skelmersdale residents don't appear to travel anywhere is also totally misplaced. Skem is not a self contained new town, if anything it's the opposite.
No hospital, a trip to Southport, Wigan or Fazackerley for A&E.
No sixth form college, majority study A level's in Wigan collages.
No restaurants, no cinema, no sports centre, no bowling alley, no large DIY centres. Only One large supermarket. No town centre nightlife.
This is about leveling up. A rail service directly linking the town to two of the biggest and best cities in the UK would be good start.

 

[urbophile]

Existing public transport, then you mean the 90 minutes bus journey. I suspect the evidence is correct.
What the evidence doesn't or can't show is the amount of residents who make their way to Ormskirk or Maghull stations by whatever means (bus,drive,taxi) and get a train.

When I lived there (1980s) I think Kirkby was the preferred interchange. Maghull North (which didn't exist then) might be the majority choice now. I may be wrong but I don't think Saveaway tickets were valid then from/to Ormskirk, and Merseytravel concessionary passes certainly weren't; (now they only work one way, ie for Merseyside residents not Lancashire ones). I should imagine between them the car parks are largely full of Skem residents.

 

[Corriman]

When I lived there (1980s) I think Kirkby was the preferred interchange. Maghull North (which didn't exist then) might be the majority choice now. I may be wrong but I don't think Saveaway tickets were valid then from/to Ormskirk, and Merseytravel concessionary passes certainly weren't; (now they only work one way, ie for Merseyside residents not Lancashire ones). I should imagine between them the car parks are largely full of Skem residents.

The car park at Maghull North is always full, they really should of made it bigger considering how close to the M58 it is.
I think you can purchase the saver tickets at Ormskirk Station. Ormskirk is still the best option if using the bus for the first part of the journey.

 

[adrock1976]

Existing public transport, then you mean the 90 minutes bus journey. I suspect the evidence is correct.
What the evidence doesn't or can't show is the amount of residents who make their way to Ormskirk or Maghull stations by whatever means (bus,drive,taxi) and get a train.
The evidence that shows Skelmersdale residents don't appear to travel anywhere is also totally misplaced. Skem is not a self contained new town, if anything it's the opposite.
No hospital, a trip to Southport, Wigan or Fazackerley for A&E.
No sixth form college, majority study A level's in Wigan collages.
No restaurants, no cinema, no sports centre, no bowling alley, no large DIY centres. Only One large supermarket. No town centre nightlife.
This is about leveling up. A rail service directly linking the town to two of the biggest and best cities in the UK would be good start.

I am unaware of plans for direct trains to/from Skelmersdale to London (the largest city) and Birmingham (second largest city).

When I did geography at primary school many years ago, England's top four largest cities were London, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool in that order.

 

[Corriman]

I am unaware of plans for direct trains to/from Skelmersdale to London (the largest city) and Birmingham (second largest city).

When I did geography at primary school many years ago, England's top four largest cities were London, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool in that order.

Ok, read my post again, I don't think I'm contradicting your old teachers

 

[frodshamfella]

Well I have said before that I like Knowsley Parkway.

Is Knowsley regarded in Knowsley the same way as Merseyside is within "Merseyside"? i.e. not very popular and not used

Bit confusing as not near Knowsley Village.

Merseyrail to me is trying to put right an error made by the government of the day by putting Skelmersdsle bask in Merseyside - on the railway at least.

Quite true. Skelmersdale has been poorly connected for far too long, it must be very isolating for residents.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When I lived there (1980s) I think Kirkby was the preferred interchange. Maghull North (which didn't exist then) might be the majority choice now. I may be wrong but I don't think Saveaway tickets were valid then from/to Ormskirk, and Merseytravel concessionary passes certainly weren't; (now they only work one way, ie for Merseyside residents not Lancashire ones). I should imagine between them the car parks are largely full of Skem residents.

I think the tickets that include Ormskirk and Chester used to be called "Saveaway Plus" as opposed to what the Saveaway used to be, which was only valid to the boundary (Maghull and Hooton).

 

[mcnw35282]

I think the tickets that include Ormskirk and Chester used to be called "Saveaway Plus" as opposed to what the Saveaway used to be, which was only valid to the boundary (Maghull and Hooton).

No, that was the TRIO plus ticket...which was a normal areas A to D TRIO ticket, plus Zone E (Liverpool City Centre and Birkenhead), zone F (Maghull to Ormskirk) and Area G (Hooton to Chester and Ellesmere Port). They scrapped the TRIO plus a short while after, but incorporated the premise into all areas Saveaway tickets and free travel passes. Was a great day when I could get from Tower Hill in Kirkby to Chester for a fiver...

 

[yorkie]

Thread reopened to enable @stuart100100 to post an update...