How could MML line speeds be improved? (e.g. by using tilt)

[Bald Rick]

My rationale was that since via HS2 will likely beat the MML on travel time, the best thing to do from an operating cost perspective would be to stop all trains on both routes at East Midlands Parkway, provide interchanges there (cross platform if we can manage it) then send the MML trains to Nottingham as it is the closest load centre (Derby being the much smaller urban area and the one with the continuing route North). All service to Derby and North would then be via HS2.

Maybe I'm being a little too brutal with my rationalisation axe.

Some decent flows Leicester - Derby / Notts / Sheffield

 

[Peter Sarf]

Easy solution for the MML - remove the fast intercity trains to a new straighter route bypassing St Albans, leaving the existing tracks for local and suburban services. Could run up from London to East Midlands Parkway and then up to Newcastle via Sheffield and Leeds. Maybe call it high speed too?

...I'll get my coat.

And I was just thinking about the old (er newer) Great Central route to Leicester from Marylebone. I assume that was straigter (and no crossings ?).

I too have a coat !.

firstly, the existing carriages (Meridians) already have a tilt profile.

secondly, straightening some of the curves is impractical. St Albans for example, then all the way from Harpenden to Luton north.

.........

Gosh, I had completely forgotten about that 222s being the right shape and the design for the mechanism already existing.

 

[brad465]

When the Derby remodelling was undertaken, did that improve line speeds in and out of the station?

 

[quantinghome]

And I was just thinking about the old (er newer) Great Central route to Leicester from Marylebone. I assume that was straigter (and no crossings ?).

It wasn't straighter and there were crossings.

When the Derby remodelling was undertaken, did that improve line speeds in and out of the station?

I believe so.


It strikes me that the aphorism "the secret to going fast is not to go slow" applies here. Where are the big speed constraints on the line, and could tilt help alleviate them?

 

[MarkyT]

Gosh, I had completely forgotten about that 222s being the right shape and the design for the mechanism already existing.

I don't think it's a great idea to add around 10t to each vehicle which is the difference in weight between the 220s and 221s, the latter with their heavy outside frame bogies.

 

[Bald Rick]

When the Derby remodelling was undertaken, did that improve line speeds in and out of the station?

Yes.

Where are the big speed constraints on the line, and could tilt help alleviate them?

It would be easier to list where the alignment doesn’t constrain linespeed on the MML. Of course alignment is just one of scores of factors affecting linespeed, and other things would have to be sorted in many places, not least signal spacing / sighting, and what sits under the track.

 

[quantinghome]

It would be easier to list where the alignment doesn’t constrain linespeed on the MML. Of course alignment is just one of scores of factors affecting linespeed, and other things would have to be sorted in many places, not least signal spacing / sighting, and what sits under the track.

It is rather twisty but isn't most of it cleared for 100mph+ ? Excluding approaches to stations where every train stops, where are the big time savings to be found?

 

[brad465]

It strikes me that the aphorism "the secret to going fast is not to go slow" applies here. Where are the big speed constraints on the line, and could tilt help alleviate them?

It would be easier to list where the alignment doesn’t constrain linespeed on the MML. Of course alignment is just one of scores of factors affecting linespeed, and other things would have to be sorted in many places, not least signal spacing / sighting, and what sits under the track.

Well Market Harborough was a relative constraint until the remodelling there. I don't know what this involved but it was also only relatively recently that 125mph clearance was provided for sections of the MML between London and East Midland's Parkway (and beyond?).

Are there still minor speed restrictions through numerous tunnels south of Bedford? If so then maybe structural improvements to the tunnels could improve speeds there, if not already done?

 

[Bald Rick]

It is rather twisty but isn't most of it cleared for 100mph+ ? Excluding approaches to stations where every train stops, where are the big time savings to be found?

most of the WCML was cleared for 100mph+ but the benefits of tilt still applied.

Tilt effectively gives you up to 20% more speed (above 60mph or so) which means that the time benefit is similar per distance over all speed ranges. So where there’s long stretches at 100 or 110, tilt is still worthwhile considering.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==

Well Market Harborough was a relative constraint until the remodelling there. I don't know what this involved but it was also only relatively recently that 125mph clearance was provided for sections of the MML between London and East Midland's Parkway (and beyond?).

the work increased the restriction from 60mph to mph, and involved considerable realignment.

Are there still minor speed restrictions through numerous tunnels south of Bedford? If so then maybe structural improvements to the tunnels could improve speeds there, if not already done?

yes, as with all long Victorian tunnels. There’s no easy way of sorting the aerodynamics in a long tunnel, which is why the long tunnels on the WCML (and ECML) are still 110mph Max*

*except Welwyn, which is a net 110, being 115 one way and 110 the other.

 

[Ken H]

they should dig up the old engineers from the ECML from the 60's and 70's. they knew about squeezing the odd minute with tweaks to the formation. they spent the £££ then and we still have the time benefits today. they understood travel time elasticity (shorter journey time = more ticket income)

 

[Ianno87]

they should dig up the old engineers from the ECML from the 60's and 70's. they knew about squeezing the odd minute with tweaks to the formation. they spent the £££ then and we still have the time benefits today. they understood travel time elasticity (shorter journey time = more ticket income)

Or those engineers have already used up all the "low hanging fruit" already.

 

[Bald Rick]

they should dig up the old engineers from the ECML from the 60's and 70's. they knew about squeezing the odd minute with tweaks to the formation. they spent the £££ then and we still have the time benefits today. they understood travel time elasticity (shorter journey time = more ticket income)

Which is precisely what has happened on the MML over the last 40 years.

 

[HSTEd]

yes, as with all long Victorian tunnels. There’s no easy way of sorting the aerodynamics in a long tunnel, which is why the long tunnels on the WCML (and ECML) are still 110mph Max*

Giant Shinkansen style noses for trains?

 

[yorksrob]

What a lot of expensive crayonist ideas there are here to change what is already a very good main line.

As someone who's used the route regularly for the last fifteen years, howabout attempting to recreate the superior level of passenger comfort of the EMT 1st class mk 3's to get the service back up to muster !

 

[edwin_m]

What a lot of expensive crayonist ideas there are here to change what is already a very good main line.

As someone who's used the route regularly for the last fifteen years, howabout attempting to recreate the superior level of passenger comfort of the EMT 1st class mk 3's to get the service back up to muster !

Worth bearing in mind that in the time it takes from London to Sheffield you could be in Wigan or York. The MML really is the poor relation on journey times.

 

[yorksrob]

Worth bearing in mind that in the time it takes from London to Sheffield you could be in Wigan or York. The MML really is the poor relation on journey times.

Fair point to an extent, but the average pointer won't be comparing prices to York and Wigan.

He'll be looking to see if he can get a comfortable journey to Sheffield for a reasonable price.

 

[Ianno87]

Worth bearing in mind that in the time it takes from London to Sheffield you could be in Wigan or York. The MML really is the poor relation on journey times.

The biggest impact on journey times to Sheffield is the fact services head via Derby to get there (and call at Leicester and Chesterfield). On most of the route the line speed is generally pretty decent and high-ish speed running is sustained outside of station stops.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==

He'll be looking to see if he can get a journey to Sheffield for a reasonable price.

Corrected for you.

 

[edwin_m]

The biggest impact on journey times to Sheffield is the fact services head via Derby to get there (and call at Leicester and Chesterfield). On most of the route the line speed is generally pretty decent and high-ish speed running is sustained outside of station stops.

Speeds are generally in the 90mph to 110mph range with short sections of 125, whereas most of the ECML and WCML are mostly faster than 110. The Erewash Valley is pretty slow, so not much quicker than going via Derby, but some of that may be due to not being treated as a main line rather than intrinsic issues such as curvature. Unlike Derby it was also formerly a coalfield, so there may still be subsidence issues.

 

[yorksrob]

The biggest impact on journey times to Sheffield is the fact services head via Derby to get there (and call at Leicester and Chesterfield). On most of the route the line speed is generally pretty decent and high-ish speed running is sustained outside of station stops.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==



Corrected for you.

Ooh, I think you've mis-corrected there.

 

[Bald Rick]

Worth bearing in mind that in the time it takes from London to Sheffield you could be in Wigan

You *could* be, but one suspects most people would rather take four hours to Sheffield than two hours to Wigan!

 

[yorksrob]

You *could* be, but one suspects most people would rather take four hours to Sheffield than two hours to Wigan!

You do the MML a disservice. It doesn't (usually) take four hours to get from St P to Sheffield

 

[Bald Rick]

You do the MML a disservice. It doesn't (usually) take four hours to get from St P to Sheffield

Oh I know. I was just suggesting that a train to Sheffield delayed for 2hrs is preferable than a train to Wigan on time!

 

[yorksrob]

Oh I know. I was just suggesting that a train to Sheffield delayed for 2hrs is preferable than a train to Wigan on time!

Presumably that depends on whether you want to get to Sheffield or Wigan ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2021 ==

In terms of the original post, the one improvement I'd make to the line itself would be to electrify it.

 

[XAM2175]

As someone who's used the route regularly for the last fifteen years, howabout attempting to recreate the superior level of passenger comfort of the EMT 1st class mk 3's to get the service back up to muster !

Fair point to an extent, but the average pointer won't be comparing prices to York and Wigan.

He'll be looking to see if he can get a comfortable journey to Sheffield for a reasonable price.

Isn't it wonderful that the average punter always has the exact same tastes, preferences, and desires as you do?

 

[yorksrob]

Isn't it wonderful that the average punter always has the exact same tastes, preferences, and desires as you do?

Well he's presumably as likely to have the same preferences as me as those who suggest spending lots of money raising the speed here and there.

I've spent my hard earned cash to travel on the route in question over the past fifteen years. How many coming up with schemes on here have done so, I wonder.

That said, the post in question of mine should have said "timings" rather than "prices". I think prices are more critical.

 

[HSTEd]

You *could* be, but one suspects most people would rather take four hours to Sheffield than two hours to Wigan!

Well if you are going to Wigan I think you would rather avoid an extended contemplation on the way there!

 

[Jozhua]

Easy solution for the MML - remove the fast intercity trains to a new straighter route bypassing St Albans, leaving the existing tracks for local and suburban services. Could run up from London to East Midlands Parkway and then up to Newcastle via Sheffield and Leeds. Maybe call it high speed too?

...I'll get my coat.

What would be an even better option is to create a single mainline up from London to Birmingham, then branching with one leg continuing to Manchester and another leg continuing to serve both the East Midlands and North East. This way you get both relief for Cross Country and London-bound Services, while also reducing the number of new build mainlines you need to create to provide this. With a decent, but proven speed - say 200mph, this would provide both noticeable journey time improvements, while also being able to deliver the massive capacity uplift of a segregated high speed network.

Once you consider the costs of widening and straightening the existing lines, this would probably be a cheaper option too!

When the Derby remodelling was undertaken, did that improve line speeds in and out of the station?

Quite considerably!

 

[ABB125]

What would be an even better option is to create a single mainline up from London to Birmingham, then branching with one leg continuing to Manchester and another leg continuing to serve both the East Midlands and North East. This way you get both relief for Cross Country and London-bound Services, while also reducing the number of new build mainlines you need to create to provide this. With a decent, but proven speed - say 200mph, this would provide both noticeable journey time improvements, while also being able to deliver the massive capacity uplift of a segregated high speed network.

Once you consider the costs of widening and straightening the existing lines, this would probably be a cheaper option too!

You could even call such a route a "High Speed" line. Given that we already have HS1 in Kent, perhaps it could be called HS2?

 

[Jozhua]

You could even call such a route a "High Speed" line. Given that we already have HS1 in Kent, perhaps it could be called HS2?

That's a good idea - I feel like calling it high speed may very well end up attracting the eire of those who like to deride projects as "white elephants" however... therefore I propose calling it the "Triple Mainline Bypass Project (TMBP)"

 

[43066]

*except Welwyn, which is a net 110, being 115 one way and 110 the other.

And Amptill, which is long(ish), and 125mph both ways.

Speeds are generally in the 90mph to 110mph range with short sections of 125,

It’s basically all above 100mph from Cricklewood to Chesterfield, apart from the stations and the steep 80mph curve at Wigston. Not that much 125mph it has to be said (especially on the up), but a fair bit above 110.