ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[320320]

But have they been interpreted differently? I have never seen the RMTs interpretation of the agreement.

It just seems that the RMT official up there - who is known to be belligerent - is looking for a fight, and his members are paying the price in lost earnings. And of course the passengegers who we do this all for are inconvenienced.

TBF, the members voted overwhelmingly in favour of the strike action at the first ballot and even more so at the second. AFAIA the strikes have now been extended until January.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2021 ==

Exactly. We get enough rostered awful shifts on Fridays/Saturdays so ain’t going to volunteer for any extra suffering.

Lots of drivers take the lieu day for Sunday working now and try to use it on the Saturday back shift because they’re that bad.
We even have jobs uncovered now where drivers have been offered 4 hours on top of the rest day payment because they can’t be bothered dealing with the feral scum on a Saturday night when they can relax with the family instead.

 

[dk1]

Lots of drivers take the lieu day for Sunday working now and try to use it on the Saturday back shift because they’re that bad.
We even have jobs uncovered now where drivers have been offered 4 hours on top of the rest day payment because they can’t be bothered dealing with the feral scum on a Saturday night when they can relax with the family instead.

Thankfully we don’t tend to have such awful punters but the hours are enough to turn down regardless of the sweeteners offered. It’s always a NO from me.

 

[Bald Rick]

TBF, the members voted overwhelmingly in favour of the strike action at the first ballot and even more so at the second. AFAIA the strikes have now been extended until January.

Yes, and I totally respect that. I don’t understand it though.

 

[alf]

From the current RMT rule book. Agreed by all members.


objects
4. The objects of the Union shall be:-
(b) to work for the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society;

Bald rick in his post 948 says RMT rule 4B does not have to be agreed by all members.

With respect, ALL the rules are agreed by members when they sign to join.
RMT members have been expelled for refusing to abide by all the rules in the RMT constitution.
That used to have very serious consequences for rail workers up till 1979 when the closed shop was made illegal. They had to be sacked by management.

Rule 4b may explain RMT diehards’ enthusiasm for proposing industrial action at the drop of a hat.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, and I totally respect that. I don’t understand it though.

I don't understand the Scottish government sitting on the sidelines either as well other than some MSPs getting tetchy over COP26 their silence says everything. Perhaps their saving money if they've managed to switch off all the drivers and other staff from being rostered on a Sunday now.

 

[haggishunter]

I don't understand the Scottish government sitting on the sidelines either as well other than some MSPs getting tetchy over COP26 their silence says everything. Perhaps their saving money if they've managed to switch off all the drivers and other staff from being rostered on a Sunday now.

I'm getting the impression calling it a strike is a becoming a bit of a stretch, frankly a 6 day railway with no Sunday service seems to suit all parties involved far too much at the moment. Aside from cost savings, a cynic might think this will go on until end of March 2022 and amazingly disappear with Abellio to make Transport Scotland look like the saviours.

 

[320320]

I don't understand the Scottish government sitting on the sidelines either as well other than some MSPs getting tetchy over COP26 their silence says everything. Perhaps their saving money if they've managed to switch off all the drivers and other staff from being rostered on a Sunday now.

Drivers are still paid for their booked sundays whether they’re out or not and even if a job is uncovered that has no work content in it they’re booking a driver onto it and letting them book on from home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2021 ==

I'm getting the impression calling it a strike is a becoming a bit of a stretch, frankly a 6 day railway with no Sunday service seems to suit all parties involved far too much at the moment. Aside from cost savings, a cynic might think this will go on until end of March 2022 and amazingly disappear with Abellio to make Transport Scotland look like the saviours.

The whole thing is bizarre from Scotrails end. They could end this strike tomorrow by sanctioning a RDW agreement with the enhancement but then don’t have anybody working rest days but for some reason they think it’s a better idea to abandon any sort of reliable Sunday service.
Its almost as if this is more about beating the union rather than providing the service.

 

[Bald Rick]

With respect, ALL the rules are agreed by members when they sign to join.
RMT members have been expelled for refusing to abide by all the rules in the RMT constitution.
That used to have very serious consequences for rail workers up till 1979 when the closed shop was made illegal. They had to be sacked by management.

There’s a difference between accepting terms and conditions, and agreeing with a policy.

And fortunately, it’s not the 1970s any more.

 

[dk1]

I don't understand the Scottish government sitting on the sidelines either as well other than some MSPs getting tetchy over COP26 their silence says everything. Perhaps their saving money if they've managed to switch off all the drivers and other staff from being rostered on a Sunday now.

All drivers will get their booked Sunday payments regardless of whether trains run or not.

 

[Goldfish62]

Bald rick in his post 948 says RMT rule 4B does not have to be agreed by all members.

With respect, ALL the rules are agreed by members when they sign to join.
RMT members have been expelled for refusing to abide by all the rules in the RMT constitution.
That used to have very serious consequences for rail workers up till 1979 when the closed shop was made illegal. They had to be sacked by management.

Rule 4b may explain RMT diehards’ enthusiasm for proposing industrial action at the drop of a hat.

Given that I read that a recent poll suggested that the majority of RMT members either voted Tory or for some other Right-leaning party at the last GE does that mean that the majority of members must now be expelled???

 

[Robertj21a]

Let's just nationalise the lot. Call it British Railways and let the government dictate the pay rates and terms and conditions.

Numerous problems solved.

Simples.

 

[43066]

I thought you might have realised that I take quite an interest in Ts and Cs, and Unions, across many industries, not just transport related. Given the silliness often generated by the RMT it's no surprise that I find the rail industry quite an interesting one to watch.

How odd.

I have to say I can’t imagine joining a forum discussing an industry I don’t even work in, have no real understanding of, and continually complaining about staff’s pay and working conditions. That strikes me as a strange use of time.

Do you honestly not have better things to do?!

 

[Goldfish62]

Let's just nationalise the lot. Call it British Railways and let the government dictate the pay rates and terms and conditions.

Numerous problems solved.

Simples.

Except in a nationalised industry it's usually the board that dictates pay and conditions, not the government.

 

[43066]

Except in a nationalised industry it's usually the board that dictates pay and conditions, not the government.

Thankfully in the railway industry pay and conditions tend to be agreed, rather than dictated.

 

[Robertj21a]

Except in a nationalised industry it's usually the board that dictates pay and conditions, not the government.

I'm sure the government could ensure that pay and conditions met certain criteria - in the interests of the country as a whole. It would certainly change the arguments a fair bit.

 

[snookertam]

Its almost as if this is more about beating the union rather than providing the service.

Their initial social media output around the dispute certainly suggested that.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure the government could ensure that pay and conditions met certain criteria - in the interests of the country as a whole. It would certainly change the arguments a fair bit.

Well indeed, they could set general guidance on such matters as a condition of funding settlements.

 

[InOban]

Just curious. I can see that a weekend evening shift must be very unpleasant for the passenger-facing staff, whether on board or at the gateline, but how does it affect the drivers?

 

[wobman]

Let's just nationalise the lot. Call it British Railways and let the government dictate the pay rates and terms and conditions.

Numerous problems solved.

Simples.

Don't think that would solve the problems, just create more

 

[Class 170101]

Thankfully in the railway industry pay and conditions tend to be agreed, rather than dictated.

Depends what part of the railway you are in.

 

[CJSwan]

Just curious. I can see that a weekend evening shift must be very unpleasant for the passenger-facing staff, whether on board or at the gateline, but how does it affect the drivers?

Some examples I’ve seen on Saturday night shifts: people pretending to jump from the platform as the train comes through the station, people throwing themselves/body slamming into the side of the train as it’s coming to a stop/starting to move off, pass com activations both accidentally and on purpose, noise of passengers if they’re in the saloon or vestibule behind the cab, drivers being threatened/verbally abuse/physically abused on the platform… And then you have the drivers on DOO who might have to deal with any incidents on board.

Apologies for the long winded reply. But these are just a few I have seen in the last month or two.

 

[Starmill]

I don't understand the Scottish government sitting on the sidelines either as well other than some MSPs getting tetchy over COP26 their silence says everything. Perhaps their saving money if they've managed to switch off all the drivers and other staff from being rostered on a Sunday now.

There's really no doubt that money is being saved. No pay for staff on withdrawn labour, much reduced bills for train fuel and cleaning, easier servicing and maintenance and no need to bring in staff (whose labour isn't withdrawn) on overtime e.g. drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2021 ==

And frankly all MPs should take a 10% pay cut (at least) nevermind a wage freeze.

While that might be justified by several arguments, that would only be a gross cut of £8,193.20 / year for each Member, or a gross reduction of approximately £5.3 million / year in salary bill. Not going to go very far, especially when we consider that the government takes Higher Rate income tax back at 40% of that amount currently anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2021 ==

All drivers will get their booked Sunday payments regardless of whether trains run or not.

And of course plenty of them will have to come in anyway and do a bit of driving.

 

[Class 170101]

While that might be justified by several arguments, that would only be a gross cut of £8,193.20 / year for each Member, or a gross reduction of approximately £5.3 million / year in salary bill. Not going to go very far, especially when we consider that the government takes Higher Rate income tax back at 40% of that amount currently anyway!

Oh totally agree its peanuts but if we are all in it together, Every Little Helps.

 

[Carlisle]

I think the priority is not a revolution to be honest it about getting the guards the pay they deserve for working overtime,

If this dispute means they’re voted potentially to refuse all overtime for a year or more, it suggests either they don’t particularly need the extra cash or are on fairly lucrative strike pay, unless your implying we’re back in the realms of NUM soup kitchens & the like ?

 

[320320]

How odd.

I have to say I can’t imagine joining a forum discussing an industry I don’t even work in, have no real understanding of, and continually complaining about staff’s pay and working conditions. That strikes me as a strange use of time.

Do you honestly not have better things to do?!

It’s extremely odd. He seems to have some sort of fetish for workers being downtrodden by management.

He even thought the shameful tactics of British Gas firing and rehiring staff on inferior terms and conditions was justified.

 

[Carlisle]

It’s extremely odd. He seems to have some sort of fetish for workers

Odd that 99% of the insults on this forum appear to come from those promoting the militant trade Union viewpoints

 

[Robertj21a]

How odd.

I have to say I can’t imagine joining a forum discussing an industry I don’t even work in, have no real understanding of, and continually complaining about staff’s pay and working conditions. That strikes me as a strange use of time.

Do you honestly not have better things to do?!

Thank you for your concern. Yes, most things I do are far more rewarding and interesting. However, Ts and Cs are a common theme across various industries that I'm involved in and the reactions of people (like yourself) are always interesting to read. You never know, they may even be contributing to some work I'm doing.
It's inevitable that on a forum with a heavy proportion of rail staff, any alternative views (whether from management or outside the industry), may be viewed with suspicion - this may be why you seem so bothered by my ongoing interest. The fact that you seem so concerned by my comments is itself of interest to me.

 

[the sniper]

The fact that you seem so concerned by my comments is itself of interest to me.

You've certainly put in the work to get that pay off...

 

[Starmill]

In the British Gas / Asda disputes etc, it was fairly obvious to the entirely external observer how the treatment of workers by large, profitable businesses was so unfair.

In this dispute, it is not clear in what specific ways the workers who are striking are being treated unfairly to many people who aren't themselves those workers. It's far from clear to me what the issue is that's unfair despite almost 1000 posts on the topic. And of course, they're not working for profitable businesses, they're working for a publicly-funded service. Those are just facts. Everything else in this discussion sits on top of this.

 

[wobman]

So if this dispute means they’re giving up overtime potentially for a year or more, it suggests either they don’t particularly need the extra cash or are on fairly lucrative strike pay, unless your claiming we’re in the realms of NUM soup kitchens & the like ?

It's overtime on a Sunday, so the guard's are still getting paid their normal wage. Nobody gets strike pay unless you believe the daily mail ! Research the origins of the dispute and it's far more complicated than You think......