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Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

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Flange Squeal

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With the battered heaps they are running at the moment, I really hope so!
If Kent are getting some, can Surrey join in? I think the youngest vehicles are 10 year old Versas and a few 9 year old Citaros - the bulk these days seems to be 12-14 year old Enviros and 15 year old Citaros. Their native 15-plate Streetlites and transferred-in 64 plate variants (and some newer Enviro MMCs) all seemed to get exported when Covid hit. That said, not seen the near-20 year old Mini Pointers we had for a while, I must admit.

Al that said, I won't be holding my breath for Guildford to get anything that isn't a hand me down anymore. Depot seems to almost act as a low-cost unit these days, given the general fleet presentation and care that seems to go into the service being offered.
 
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darloscott

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I understand North East are expecting a number of cascades from London and Merseyside but nothing new once again. It should help improve the age and presentation of the fleet if nothing else. Very much feels like they’re sat in limbo still as to any proper improvements.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Hello all - another travelogue (sorry if these are getting a bit dull) but I had the opportunity to get out and about in a part of the world that I'd not visited for a very long time. So I took the plunge. I hope you enjoy the photos - they aren't scenic (at all) so I won't be rivalling @RELL6L in his photographic endevours. Not only do we have a shortage of drivers but Saturday's buses were also caught up with the traffic jams caused by drivers panic buying fuel. It was a tough day and more challenging that I had envisioned - I hope you enjoy the read

It's been about 20 years since I had a trip in the home counties in what was London Country North East territory, and Arriva was very much a novel invention, sweeping away The Shires, County Bus and eventually absorbing Blazefield's Sovereign business. I'd overnighted in Hemel - a town I've visited only a couple of times. I wandered down past the closed shops (it was early) and waited next to the now deceased Debenhams store for my first bus to St Albans.....and I waited. Ordinarily, I'd have continued waiting but after 20 mins and knowing I had an appointment near Sandridge to get to, I went to the hotel, grabbed my car and drove! I assume this was a driver shortage issue and 3 other prospective passengers were also affected. So we tried again, stashing the car in St Albans and catching an Arriva 357 for Harpenden. I paid the £9 for my Intalink Explorer and went to sit down realising that I was on what had clearly been a First machine with lilac seats etc. Turns out, Arriva have three of these that they acquired from Metroline! After a short journey, I ended up catching the same machine back and my first experience of central St Albans.

First impressions are of a typical affluent south eastern town. Quite nice but with some awful 1980s architecture thrown in. However, the really noticeable aspect was the choking traffic along St Peters Street - nose to tail and indicative of a town that sees car driving as an inalienable right, irrespective of how damaging it is. I got breakfast but then headed out for my 724.... It wasn't tracking. The LED displays in the shelters aren't real-time AFAIK, so simply repeat the excellent roadside timetable provision that Herts CC commendably maintain. I elected to make the same journey to Harlow but in stages so it was Uno's 602 to Hatfield. It duly arrived and no issues with my ticket as I boarded a Citaro that wore its 13 years very well. Very nicely turned out inside as we headed out through the traffic. There's little countryside between there and the edge of Hatfield as we then headed around the University campus, my relaxation broken by an emergency stop as a car driver absentmindedly pulled out in front of the bright pink and purple bus! I got off at Hatfield Galleria which is a set of stops in some wasteland away from the shops.

It was straight onto the Arriva 302 with a slightly newer e300 but more depressing interior. The seats were ok but internal ads ranged from the Arriva "don't do that" notices that they have a fondness for, through to very old promo ones for schemes that have long gone (Ice points?) and then to Covid warning ads, ads sowing a disheveled pensioner and the telltale signs of self neglect, and of course, the adhesive marks where ads have been removed. Talk about depressing... Still, the driver was keen to make up time and he fairly aimed the e300, passing Hatfield town centre which looks like its seen better days and then past Hatfield station where a smart Uno e400city was parked up. We arrived in Welwyn Garden City and I confess I've never been there before. A shame I've not done so, nor took time to explore more, as it's a lovely place. Beautifully laid out (as it should be) - I really liked it. I must have a better explore sometime. We swung into the small bus station after passing the rail station that seems out of character for the rest of the place and had it not been for my delays already, I'd have taken time to wander around. Instead, it was a short break before catching the 324 to Hertford. Another Arriva service, this was a slightly dowdy but reasonably tidy 58 plate Versa that seems to shuttle between the two towns. The dowdiness continued inside with very faded seats - odd because whilst I've criticised Arriva a bit recently, the other Opcos seem to have been decent at stuff like refurbs. The trusty Versa though performed nicely as we left the industrial areas of WGC behind, which are interesting in themselves with lots of classic brick built commercial premises unlike today's standards. It was at this point that we passed a 724 to Harlow.....my earlier missing non tracking bus had been running all the time, just about 45 mins late!

We arrived into the small bus station at Hertford - a depressing little affair but the rest of the town was a delight. Again, bustling and affluent and quite attractive. Again, it's mainly Arriva but Trustybus also operate here, using a rather scruffy ex First Solo that I remember very well, it being part of the Bath allocation so I remember them being delivered and serving the city for the next 13-14 years. I had chance for a sandwich and was chomping it when the 724 arrived. It was one of the 17 plate e200mmc that was at Maidstone but has been reallocated to the 724 to meet emissions requirements for its Heathrow leg and was one of the first deliveries in the Arriva sky blue. To be honest, the condition was appalling - dirty, battered paintwork and it embodies the lack of marketing flair in Arriva in contrast to the days when the 724 was a Green Line route. However, worse was to come.

We crossed the River Stort and entered Essex, arriving into Harlow. I had chance to have a quick wander round the town centre. Now, I have an interest in architecture and human geography and so found walking round really interesting. Opposite the bus station is Terminus House which is a large office block now converted to housing - it is basically a human warehouse and has been beset with social problems. Interesting yet demoralising about how we house people for profit. The town centre is also very much as it was built as a new town; it feels you could almost list it as an example of post-war planning and design. That's the interesting bit - good and bad. However, then we get onto the bus related aspects....and it's bleak. The bus station was rebuilt in 2001 apparently - a bizarre two stage design of which half is undercover. There's an information office - locked up. A poster next to it about where to catch your bus - dates from 2017. Bus shelters are a mess, dirty and opaque windows where countless notices have been cellotaped on and then removed. It seems it may be a Harlow Council facility and it's definitely a miserable hell hole. Even worse then is the fleet. There is Galleon Travel with its fleet of partly repainted ex London tat with faded red and dark blue but with Central Connect fleetnames though also referred to as Trustybus - a low quality independent carving a niche on tendered stuff and work discarded by Arriva. That's bad enough. However, I struggle to recall in recent memory an operation by a major operator as poor as Arriva in Harlow. The 724 and Stansted services have 2017 e200mmcs but they were uniformly filthy . The town routes had a selection of 17 year old Solos that were as shoddy as Trustybus if not worse. One had sustained accident damage so simply had a bit of filler, unsanded and unpainted, in the near corner. Other local services were entrusted to larger vehicles such as a former Max standard Eclipse with a range of mis-matched repairs that according to flickr have been like it for four months. There was another newer Eclipse that had been route branded for the 310 - it had been debranded on the cove panels but only on the nearside. It was awful. So I was looking forward to leaving my Essex interlude but then it started going wrong. I wanted to head west (724), south west (410) or north (510) but then suddenly, those vehicles failed to turn up. In the shadow of Terminus House, I felt like I was in Hotel California - I could have gone to Staple Tye several times but nothing to get me away. Eventually, a 508 for Bishops Stortford but I'd have missed the Stevenage connection so I'd have been worse off. Then came the 410 so I was going to try for Broxbourne but the eastern European driver was insistent that my "Arriva ticket" was not valid. At this point, a 724 for Heathrow turned up and I ran to it like it was the last chopper out of Saigon! What had been a mildly diverting 45 mins in Harlow had turned into a two hour trap! In fairness to Arriva and TrustygalleonConnect, the lack of drivers and idiocy of car users blocking roads by panic buying at petrol stations had destroyed any semblance of a timetable though the Arriva drivers in Harlow were no advert for the firm - getting out of cabs, leaving buses idling as they vaped and looked at their phones like recalcitrant teenagers, but why should they care when Arriva clearly don't.

The 724 was a Sapphire liveried e200mmc similarly shifted from Kent, but from the Bluewater service. It was a relief to finally be moving as we headed west. Not wishing to cover old ground, a quick check revealed a service from Ware to Stevenage, operated by Trustybus. I got off in Ware by the college and walked into what is a very pretty small town that feels more East Anglian that South Eastern. The 383 duly turned up and it was a Solo with a dateless plate. This driver had no qualms about my ticket and after about 5 mins, it was just me and the driver for the duration. This was a former Arriva machine with the old moquette as per the Versa and, it transpires, was newer than the Harlow Solos! We made our well to Tonwell where it transpired there was a blockade and that necessitated a diversion....virtully all the way back to Hertford (passing the North station) before he blazed a trail all the way to Stevenage where we were barely more than a few minutes late. Stevenage seemed smarter and happier as a place than Harlow and so did the people. I noticed the shops that had been built on the old London Country depot had now just been demolished, reinforcing the view that we built and pull things down all too quickly to be sustainable. My next bus was another Arriva e300 similar to my earlier example, for the 100/101 to Luton that takes an age at an hour. This is a route that had been a Sapphire service but is now just operated by unbranded fleet of various ages and models. We made our way to Hitchin being shadowed by another bus I recognised in a previous guise - former First 53205 (still with the fleetnumber) still in Buses of Somerset livery from its time in Yeovil was vying with us in the service of Trustybus.

An uneventful run brought me into Luton. Again, it's been ages since I was last there and the European style bus stops by the rail station. I went for an coffee in the Starbucks there though the Arriva bus shop is, of course, now stubbornly closed. This is again Arriva Shires territory but it isn't - since the Shires was split asunder, the former London Country ops are now Southern Counties whilst this was Arriva Midlands....I thought how I could travel on the same OpCo and end up in Wrexham as well as Watford! My bus was the 321 to St Albans and it was a relatively modern machine with a Streetlite that had lost its Sapphire livery. In standard sky blue, it retains Sapphire branding on the headrests but everything else inside had been debranded. We made our way out and past the Matalan store on Castle Street that occupies the former depot site and then....stop. There's a petrol station and people were queuing....that act saw us travel 160 metres in about 15 minutes. Then we crawled up the hill on London Road at walking pace; really, those Streetlites should be on something like Oswestry to Shrewsbury not on an intensive route like that. Dusk was falling fast as we arrived in Harpenden but my phone was dead and I couldn't see if the 357 was operating so I stayed on for the duration; shame as Harpenden looks a nice spot. Instead, I stuck it out on the 321 and into St Albans where a 357 was due to reunite me with my car.

It was a good day but stressful with the twin disruptions of driver shortages and fuel panics. However, I did enjoy it, even Harlow though that did get a bit tiresome. A bit like arriving at a party that isn't as bad as you thought yet you can't then leave because your lift isn't ready to go yet! And Arriva....they have a lot to sort out but without it being a group therapy session, they have to admit they have a problem before they can move on. It may be some wait. Hope you enjoyed the write up and feel free to contribute or make corrections.
 

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Robertj21a

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A good write up, thank you. Unfortunately, Harlow has been appalling (in all respects) for so many decades that it's beyond redemption - Arriva fits in rather well.
 

Wyrleybart

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Thanks for the interesting travelogue "Wazoo". Your knowledge and experience is great, and I confess I haven't really travelled around the patch at all apart from travelling to Ware by train back in 1978 or 1979 to collect a Honda CB125 engine to carry back to Mid Wales. Must have been mad !!

The mentions of debranded Arriva Sapphires seem resonant. Although I only ever used the service once I still have vivid memories of the SN64 plate Streetlites which operated the No 1 and No 2 from Cannock into Walsall. Noisy buses with some creaky and squeaky internal panelling - on a two year old bus !!!! Those Streetlites disappeared, I believe to Derbyshire, and Arriva substituted older vehicles down to 55 plates i nthe few months before they handed it over to the "Chaerider" brand. The "fast" No 1 had gone by then leaving the No 2 to plod to Walsall and back. NXWM appeared on the scene with the X51, which then was ramped up to the level it is today using mostly 15 plate e400 platinums.

But to be fair Chaserider having taken on the ex Arriva "bangers" have outshopped them in a nice bright red colour and they look so much more modern. I have only seen one turquoise Chaserider labelled bus in the last week, but the No 1 has been reinstated on the A34 route. The Cannock - Walsall service seems largely to be Solos these days, and it is bizarre that Chaserider seem to relish the competition with NXWM on the route.
 

cnjb8

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Thanks for the interesting travelogue "Wazoo". Your knowledge and experience is great, and I confess I haven't really travelled around the patch at all apart from travelling to Ware by train back in 1978 or 1979 to collect a Honda CB125 engine to carry back to Mid Wales. Must have been mad !!

The mentions of debranded Arriva Sapphires seem resonant. Although I only ever used the service once I still have vivid memories of the SN64 plate Streetlites which operated the No 1 and No 2 from Cannock into Walsall. Noisy buses with some creaky and squeaky internal panelling - on a two year old bus !!!! Those Streetlites disappeared, I believe to Derbyshire, and Arriva substituted older vehicles down to 55 plates i nthe few months before they handed it over to the "Chaerider" brand. The "fast" No 1 had gone by then leaving the No 2 to plod to Walsall and back. NXWM appeared on the scene with the X51, which then was ramped up to the level it is today using mostly 15 plate e400 platinums.

But to be fair Chaserider having taken on the ex Arriva "bangers" have outshopped them in a nice bright red colour and they look so much more modern. I have only seen one turquoise Chaserider labelled bus in the last week, but the No 1 has been reinstated on the A34 route. The Cannock - Walsall service seems largely to be Solos these days, and it is bizarre that Chaserider seem to relish the competition with NXWM on the route.
If you mean the FJ64 StreetLites, they were transferred to Milton Keynes and Luton in exchange for some Wright Solars around 2018
 

TheGrandWazoo

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A good write up, thank you. Unfortunately, Harlow has been appalling (in all respects) for so many decades that it's beyond redemption - Arriva fits in rather well.
Beyond redemption? It's certainly a long way back and there's no excuse for how poorly managed the whole Arriva operation down there is. Even relatively modern fleet like the e200mmc are filthy but, I suspect, that it's low down on priorities for an overstretched management based in Maidstone.

Thanks for the interesting travelogue "Wazoo". Your knowledge and experience is great, and I confess I haven't really travelled around the patch at all apart from travelling to Ware by train back in 1978 or 1979 to collect a Honda CB125 engine to carry back to Mid Wales. Must have been mad !!

The mentions of debranded Arriva Sapphires seem resonant. Although I only ever used the service once I still have vivid memories of the SN64 plate Streetlites which operated the No 1 and No 2 from Cannock into Walsall. Noisy buses with some creaky and squeaky internal panelling - on a two year old bus !!!! Those Streetlites disappeared, I believe to Derbyshire, and Arriva substituted older vehicles down to 55 plates i nthe few months before they handed it over to the "Chaerider" brand. The "fast" No 1 had gone by then leaving the No 2 to plod to Walsall and back. NXWM appeared on the scene with the X51, which then was ramped up to the level it is today using mostly 15 plate e400 platinums.

But to be fair Chaserider having taken on the ex Arriva "bangers" have outshopped them in a nice bright red colour and they look so much more modern. I have only seen one turquoise Chaserider labelled bus in the last week, but the No 1 has been reinstated on the A34 route. The Cannock - Walsall service seems largely to be Solos these days, and it is bizarre that Chaserider seem to relish the competition with NXWM on the route.
Yes - you must have been mad.

It was clear that Arriva was pulling out of Cannock as the good fleet was moved elsewhere and old stuff introduced in readiness for the disposal. I travelled on some of those routes in October last year, and in May this year after the sale. To be honest, whilst the Arriva Cannock fleet was old, the condition wasn't that bad on the vehicles I experienced. Certainly, the Volvo Eclipses were worth keeping and they look better with a paint job now, and it was better than Arriva Harlow.

One thing that I touched upon was the presentation and under-investment of the Arriva fleet on, what I would consider, are core routes. I don't expect Harlow locals to have anything other than ageing Solos and Darts. The 321 and 100/1 being cases that I highlighted but in Luton, the Busway services are being operated by a range of vehicles, not least 16 year old Eclipses on the F70, with even the newest ones coming in at 9/10 years of age. It's all rather depressing.
 

RELL6L

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A very interesting write up from The Grand Wazoo with his take on Hertfordshire and Harlow and Arriva's operations in that area. This is my original home territory and I was exploring this on London Country RTs and RFs from the late 1960s. I haven't actually travelled so much on the buses in that area recently but it is clear that Arriva are at best in managed decline in the area (as in many other places) with a total lack of investment, hand-me-down buses, shabby presentation, poor publicity and a don't-care don't-spend money attitude. There are some good routes - the 321 for example is as frequent as it was 50 years ago in parts, the 300-302 spine more so and the 310 trunk route still has a good service; also the 15-minute service on the 100/101 from Stevenage to Hitchin and Luton knocks spots off what there was then. However the true rural network has shrunk and Arriva barely features on it. The 324 is a very recent county funded addition to complement the 724 (although there was a route that way before, originally the 393/A through from Welwyn Garden City to Hertford and Harlow via Hoddesdon). I have seen Trustybus fairly recently on the Epping Ongar corridor from Harlow and I thought they were quite good, they now have a fleet of 12 year old Omni City 'deckers operating the trunk 420/420A. This used to be the London Country 339 trunk route but the service is now much better than it was back then and I think Arriva just abandoned it.

On the places, bearing in mind that most of this is a pretty affluent area but had a lot of housing and 'new towns' added in the 1960s and 1970s:
  • Hemel Hempstead town centre is pretty dire but the old town and around there is quite decent
  • Harpenden is a pleasant town but there's no more than an attractive green town centre and common
  • St Albans has a lot to see, if you have time visit the abbey and down to the Georgian streets and lake beyond, it is a very affluent commuter city, you are right about St Peter's Street, it is all worshipping the car
  • Hatfield is only nice in the old town round Hatfield House and east of the railway
  • Welwyn Garden City indeed has a lot to commend it, well laid out, green, spacious and well kept, worth seeing but not that easy as it covers quite a wide area
  • Hertford and Ware are pleasant affluent towns and benefit from attractive sections of river running through them
  • Harlow is very bleak, run down and unloved - what more can you say!
  • Stevenage, in my mind, is much nicer than Harlow. Fifty years ago they were roughly comparable but Stevenage has made an effort, kept up and has a much better cared for town centre
  • Luton is for passing through, less said the better

The gem, if you have time on another visit especially with an interest in architecture, is Letchworth, the first 'garden city' from very early 20th century, which has a lot of interesting and attractive buildings and layout across the town.

Bus-wise the rural routes in the north of Hertfordshire are quite attractive, the 384 would have been much nicer than the 383 (but takes longer) going through real rural areas and past the attractive village of Benington. Buntingford and Bishops Stortford are worth a visit, an attractive day would be Hertford-Buntingford-Royston-Cambridge-Saffron Walden-Bishops Stortford-Hertford. There used to be more rural routes though - for a while there was a two-hourly service from Luton-Airport-Hitchin-Baldock-Buntingford-Bishops Stortford and Stanstead Airport, but that vanished a few years ago - although, to be fair, the current 386 across the rural part here is a lot better than the twice-weekly shoppers service of 50 years ago.

I went out myself on Friday to Essex, with a similar experience around petrol stations, I will either post separately or add to this post later today (on the basis that two buses were Arriva even if nine weren't!)
 

duncombec

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I was in the North-East this week for the Omnibus Society's presidential weekend, and had the chance to sample some of the local operations, either on the bus or from the roadside. I'll be posting the relevant bits in the right threads.

Arriva was an operator that I experienced from the roadside only. I have have a vague idea of sampling their services, but finding an interesting out-and-back route that I could do in limited time was rather beyond my capabilities. It was starkly clear from the very outset that the North East operation receives substantially more care than does the South East: although there were many liveries and variants thereof (new Sapphire, old Sapphire, Max, Hybrid, new corporate, old corporate to name but a few) on various vehicle types, almost every bus was "complete": no panels in a different colour, very few bits of route branding scraped off, few noticeable joins. The number of scraped or dented panels was also minimal and I only saw a single example - that primarily because it was on old sapphire livery so the white scrapes showed up against the light blue background.

The most noticeable thing about the operations in and around Newcastle was the route branding - or dare one say route advertising, given there at best a 50/50 chance (and probably worse) that the bus would be on the route it was branded for. There are simply too many examples to list, but given the high proportion of branding (off the top of my head, 43-45, 52/54, 306, services to Blyth, services to Ashington, services to Alnwick/Morpeth, whatever the Sunderland-Durham service is numbered - 6?), it really should be possible to come up with some sort of system at Jesmond - and whichever other depots were involved - to at least make a modicum of an effort to put the right bus on the right route. All three 685 branded vehicles were parked at the back of Jesmond depot unloved and unmoved the entire weekend. Even leaving the specific route branding aside, there seems to be a multitude of different vehicle types - whether scheduled or not I don't know, but I can't imagine it is particularly easy for any intending passengers on, say, the 43-45 group of services, usually operated with branded double-deckers, to find their service that is now a new corporate-liveried Solo.

It is going to be interesting reading Paul O'Neill's response in BUSES magazine next month to the previous article and associated letters, to ascertain whether he does actually travel beyond the confines of his local company. It really is hard not to see the 'quality' of the operation in this area as being down to the "Head Office Effect."

The scenery around most of Northumbria and County Durham was simply stunning, so hopefully it won't be too many years before I get a chance to be back in the area and try some of the routes currently operated by Arriva for a more "travel-based" experience.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I was in the North-East this week for the Omnibus Society's presidential weekend, and had the chance to sample some of the local operations, either on the bus or from the roadside. I'll be posting the relevant bits in the right threads.

Arriva was an operator that I experienced from the roadside only. I have have a vague idea of sampling their services, but finding an interesting out-and-back route that I could do in limited time was rather beyond my capabilities. It was starkly clear from the very outset that the North East operation receives substantially more care than does the South East: although there were many liveries and variants thereof (new Sapphire, old Sapphire, Max, Hybrid, new corporate, old corporate to name but a few) on various vehicle types, almost every bus was "complete": no panels in a different colour, very few bits of route branding scraped off, few noticeable joins. The number of scraped or dented panels was also minimal and I only saw a single example - that primarily because it was on old sapphire livery so the white scrapes showed up against the light blue background.

The most noticeable thing about the operations in and around Newcastle was the route branding - or dare one say route advertising, given there at best a 50/50 chance (and probably worse) that the bus would be on the route it was branded for. There are simply too many examples to list, but given the high proportion of branding (off the top of my head, 43-45, 52/54, 306, services to Blyth, services to Ashington, services to Alnwick/Morpeth, whatever the Sunderland-Durham service is numbered - 6?), it really should be possible to come up with some sort of system at Jesmond - and whichever other depots were involved - to at least make a modicum of an effort to put the right bus on the right route. All three 685 branded vehicles were parked at the back of Jesmond depot unloved and unmoved the entire weekend. Even leaving the specific route branding aside, there seems to be a multitude of different vehicle types - whether scheduled or not I don't know, but I can't imagine it is particularly easy for any intending passengers on, say, the 43-45 group of services, usually operated with branded double-deckers, to find their service that is now a new corporate-liveried Solo.

It is going to be interesting reading Paul O'Neill's response in BUSES magazine next month to the previous article and associated letters, to ascertain whether he does actually travel beyond the confines of his local company. It really is hard not to see the 'quality' of the operation in this area as being down to the "Head Office Effect."

The scenery around most of Northumbria and County Durham was simply stunning, so hopefully it won't be too many years before I get a chance to be back in the area and try some of the routes currently operated by Arriva for a more "travel-based" experience.
In terms of Arriva, it's an easy thing to do and give them a wholesale kicking. I've experienced a few OpCos in the last year and my unscientific view on those experiences (aside from those I experienced the other day) is:

  • Arriva Merseyside/North West - pretty decent and well presented. A few oddities but overall, it's a good operation. It's received some investment over the years though, in common with the rest of the group, not enough so that in places like St Helens, you're seeing main routes operated by vehicles that are 9-10 years old. That's aside from the phenomenon of services running at 40 min headways...
  • Arriva Cymru - to be fair, it was only the Chester and Wrexham area but again, not a bad operation in similar vein to North West.
  • Arriva Midlands - it was a last chance to travel on the Cannock services. I'd been tipped off on the sale and they had shipped in a load of elderly vehicles ready for the disposal. However, considering they were 15/16 year old Darts and slightly newer Eclipses, they were actually reasonably presented despite all that.
  • Arriva North East - I enjoyed a few trips in Co Durham operated by Darlington depot before heading into Go Ahead territory. The vehicles I saw and travelled on were ok. There was one Max liveried Pulsar that I saw in Gateshead (Stockton depot?) that was really scabby though. Historically, north of the Tyne, vehicles have generally been better presented, and I'd say that Darlington and Stockton are possibly the worst offenders but they're generally ok. ANE does have a real problem with route branding (as I've mentioned before) and you can find vehicles randomly on any route seemingly and this was endemic even before Covid and the operational challenges that it brought. Note: the 685 vehicles are 2007 Omnicities and they can't keep them on the road so Pulsars tend to be preferred on that long route
  • Arriva Southern Counties - this was Maidstone area and it was pretty shoddy. Vehicles running in from Tunbridge Wells were old ex London deckers but reasonably tidy, but Maidstone's fleet of elderly deckers and ageing e200s and other stuff was very careworn.
Moreover, it seems that Arriva are now seen as vulnerable and firms are beginning to nibble away at the margins more actively, than the historic practice of Arriva simply surrendering territory and firms filling the void. Stagecoach has done so in Sittingbourne, as are Go Ahead in South West Durham. The power bases in Merseyside and Yorkshire (not experienced for a couple of years) are certainly outwardly better presented and they have had some investment in recent years though not enough and certainly, it's evident that some areas are looking rather neglected.

One other point from my travels was the 757/758 Green Line services. They received new fleet in 2020 but in terms of the vehicle livery..... looks like dealer white with some half arsed Green Line logo, with the front dash receiving a green wrap in much the same manner as some 1989 purchase where you'd paint the front in your fleet colours whilst the rest of the vehicle retained a previous operators colours.
 

alex397

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I grew up near Harlow so I know it well. It doesn’t sound like it has changed since I left the area! Except Arriva sound worse than they used to be. It sounds like they have declined to the level of the various ‘cowboy’ operators that used to exist there.
The bus station has been described exactly how I remember it. Although the information desk used to be open with a waiting room and racks of paper timetables. They staff in there were really knowledgeable and helpful. Sounds like they are no longer there.

It sounds like Harlow is on a further decline than when I knew it 15 years ago.
 

A0

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@TheGrandWazoo To be fair on your comment " I noticed the shops that had been built on the old London Country depot had now just been demolished, reinforcing the view that we built and pull things down all too quickly to be sustainable." - that unit is/was over 25 years old - for many such units that's more than covered their life expectancy.

As it happens that part of Stevenage is being extensively redeveloped - and that particular site was driven by Stevenage Borough Council https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...er-stevenage-matalan-site-transformed-5085269

A very interesting write up from The Grand Wazoo with his take on Hertfordshire and Harlow and Arriva's operations in that area. This is my original home territory and I was exploring this on London Country RTs and RFs from the late 1960s. I haven't actually travelled so much on the buses in that area recently but it is clear that Arriva are at best in managed decline in the area (as in many other places) with a total lack of investment, hand-me-down buses, shabby presentation, poor publicity and a don't-care don't-spend money attitude. There are some good routes - the 321 for example is as frequent as it was 50 years ago in parts, the 300-302 spine more so and the 310 trunk route still has a good service; also the 15-minute service on the 100/101 from Stevenage to Hitchin and Luton knocks spots off what there was then. However the true rural network has shrunk and Arriva barely features on it. The 324 is a very recent county funded addition to complement the 724 (although there was a route that way before, originally the 393/A through from Welwyn Garden City to Hertford and Harlow via Hoddesdon). I have seen Trustybus fairly recently on the Epping Ongar corridor from Harlow and I thought they were quite good, they now have a fleet of 12 year old Omni City 'deckers operating the trunk 420/420A. This used to be the London Country 339 trunk route but the service is now much better than it was back then and I think Arriva just abandoned it.

There's always a lot of rose-tinted glasses about London Transport / Country which I'm not sure is justified.

The legislation which gave LT an effective monopoly into parts of North Herts for example was massively damaging - it had an arbitrary line which covered places like Baldock, Buntingford and Bishops Stortford - which were rural places back in the 1930s and still largely rural in the 1960s. It meant United Counties carefully skirted the area - which is why for many years there wasn't a regular Stevenage - Hitchin - Luton service, one which seems blindingly obvious now. It meant LT blocked operators like Birch Bros running from Rushden to London from entering Stevenage or Welwyn Garden City. It meant Smiths of Buntingford - who'd been operating services between Buntingford and Hitchin since the 1920s endlessly found themselves in dispute with the Transport Commissioner over fare levels at the behest of LT / LCBS - rural routes serving a small number of people.

Overall the LT legacy on London Country was one of a high cost operation with unreliable vehicles. The prospered for a while in the new towns with their town networks but those started declining in the 1980s. And as a result the London Country operation struggled when privatisation arrived with its heavy cost base and old fashioned way of doing things.

The original legislation in the 1930s was a mistake allowing London Transport such a reach - it should never have had a monopoly into Herts. And when it was decided to split London Country from London Transport, the next mistake was to keep it as one. It should have been split then and merged into other NBC subsidiaries - Eastern National, United Counties, Alder Valley, Southdown, Maidstone and District.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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@TheGrandWazoo To be fair on your comment " I noticed the shops that had been built on the old London Country depot had now just been demolished, reinforcing the view that we built and pull things down all too quickly to be sustainable." - that unit is/was over 25 years old - for many such units that's more than covered their life expectancy.

As it happens that part of Stevenage is being extensively redeveloped - and that particular site was driven by Stevenage Borough Council https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...er-stevenage-matalan-site-transformed-5085269
I know what you're saying and understand that in this instance but similarly, the building and demolition of buildings, and the environmental impact of concrete production, is one of the most damaging and unsustainable aspects of modern life.

Interesting that the wider development will feature a new high quality public transport facility. Something that Stevenage lacks (I could almost hear the ghostly rattle of a Leyland 510 in there) and indeed, was absent in all my stopping off points. The bus station in WGC was ok but the rest....

There's always a lot of rose-tinted glasses about London Transport / Country which I'm not sure is justified.
I think there is and there isn't. There's nostalgia, that's for certain, when you think of RTs trundling from St Albans to Watford etc, or getting a Green Line across London from one far flung spot to another like Tunbridge Wells to Windsor.

However, and your points are correct, most people know that it was never that good and that as soon as the post war car boom began, the Country Area ceased to function properly. Archaic working practices and a high cost base were increasingly exposed, highlighted by the oil shocks and recruitment crisis of the 1970s (imagine that happening now) coupled with the perhaps most militant depots in the LC empire; I think most except the most ardent LT devotees recognise that it was not an exemplar or close to it. Then came London Country (North East).....
 

RELL6L

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So my trip last Friday was in the South Essex area. An area I had not been to for some time and not a particularly attractive area - but it worked logistically for me and it appeared that the sun would last longer there than in most places, which I think it did. I know this is the Arriva thread and I only did two Arriva journeys but there isn't a 'trips' thread.

I started in Basildon, having negotiated the labyrinth of car parks near the station. My first bus was an E400 on the First 25. This was busy much of the way with school children. The route seemed to be a mix of double and single deckers, with the previous journey a Volvo 7900 in the livery of the 100 (Chelmsford to Lakeside every 15 minutes, which it doesn't and it isn't). No problems as we breezed out of Basildon, through Wickford to Rayleigh. Rayleigh is a decent small town with a windmill and remains of an old castle pretty much in the town centre. I then wanted to go to Hullbridge, a small village on the River Crouch opposite South Woodham Ferrers. By keeping an eye on BusTimes I could see that the First 20 I intended to catch was 15 minutes late, but so was the one before. So on a 15 minute frequency one came just when I wanted it. I explored Hullbridge for 15 minutes (enough) to get the next one back to Rayleigh. Both of these were Streetlites. It had been rather overcast until now but the sun came out and stayed out for the rest of the day.

I then took the next 20 to Southend. This one was only about 5 minutes late and left just after twos 25 (which largely parallels the route, giving a 7/8 minute frequency on this section) in quick succession, the second one seemed very early (BusTimes indeed shows it as being 7 minutes early leaving Rayleigh!). The 20 actually interworks with the 27 from Southend to Canvey Island, thereby allowing crew changes at the depot in Hadleigh on both routes effectively. The normal daytime timetable looks like 19 vehicles out, three of these were Streetlites the others all deckers, including three or four Tridents in original barbie colours. This was all going fine and we arrived in central Southend on time.

Probably only because it is "the end of the line" I wanted to visit Shoeburyness. I had looked at Google maps and found a walk between getting off a 1 near Shoebury Leisure Centre and joining the 9 at the terminus at East Beach. Onto Arriva now. The 1 is every 10 minutes with 66-reg E400s and two left the central bus station (called the Travel Centre) pretty much together. I was on the earlier one (with BusTimes you can tell) but the driver was less adventurous and we fell behind. On the road heading east out of Southend towards Southchurch we hit our first petrol station queue, a disorganised shambles with people queueing to turn in from both directions causing delays both ways. Luckily we were only held up about five minutes here and we continued through Thorpe Bay which was not unpleasant. I alighted at the planned spot, just before Asda, and walked past the vape shops and diners of what I think is Shoebury and then along Chapel Road which goes past Shoeburyness garrison. Attractive military style architecture, much of the garrison has been converted to housing but it is still open for weapons testing and bomb disposal and part of the beach is fenced off as a firing range. After the garrison the path reaches the sea front and I walked along to East Beach which was a popular spot in the sunshine with people playing on the grass and down on the beach.

My next bus was an Arriva Versa on the 9, back through Shoeburyness proper, through Asda and then along the sea front into Southend. At Asda we hit another petrol station problem, here there was a tanker making a delivery, the petrol station was closed but cars were queuing both ways in anticipation of it opening. There were Asda staff in hi-vis jackets but they were not doing anything about the chaos at this point. We were barely delayed but in the other direction there were two 1s, a 7 or 8 and a 9 going nowhere. The 9 was every 12 minutes but there wasn't another one after mine from East Beach for some time! It looks like things cleared within an hour or so. The route back to Southend along the sea front was quite pleasant. I alighted in Southend just before the bus heads inland and walked along to the pier before heading up to the town centre for my next bus. Plenty of people out enjoying he sunshine. At this point I had seen no cancellations, with full services running on all the Arriva and First routes I had seen. A couple of First buses had been late but were catching up and Arriva was not to blame for the madness of the fuel queues.

My next bus was the Stephensons 17 to Leigh on Sea. I had to find the stop described as Heygate Avenue stop L, but this turned out to be right outside the bus station. The supported 17 is about the only route left that goes through Westcliff on Sea, a prosperous part of Southend which is clearly now not good bus territory although it used to have its own municipal bus operation. Indeed at Southend pier one of their former vehicles was parked up. The 17 runs hourly through the morning, with the last bus leaving Southend at 1.30, then another at 4.30. However I had looked on BusTimes the previous day and seen that the 1.30 journey had not always operated, with the bus heading off instead for an early school run, so I was on the preceding journey. Indeed on the bus had a piece of paper advising passengers that the last journey was not going to run - sensible given that most takers would be returning from shopping in Southend. Nothing specific on their website or Twitter though. This was a Scania E400 decker with good views as we went round the twee Victorian streets of Westcliff on Sea, quite a few passengers coming and going but not enough to justify a frequent service. Leigh on Sea, the proper old bit by the sea front, is a charming olde worlde village with lots of seafood pubs and restaurants, busy at lunchtime, and also old fashioned fish sellers in ancient premises on the cobbled streets as well as galleries and of course frontage on to the sea (or maybe its the River Thames here) with plenty of boats. Well worth a visit. I left the 17 in the main high street, walked down to the old town and through to the station. From Leigh station I took a First 26 (Streetlite, on time) to Hadleigh, a pleasant green area by the church.

Somewhere else I had never been was Canvey island. I don't really know why I wanted to go there as a Google search had not found anywhere nice or anything to do, except for the Castle Point Transport Museum and I didn't have time for that. To get to Canvey Island from Hadleigh was on the First 27, every 15 minutes. BusTimes showed one was coming straight away - it did but it was not in service, went to the depot then continued a few minutes later clearly in service to Canvey Island. The next one was about 10 minutes late but as a bonus was an old Trident in Westcliff on Sea colours. By now services were clearly somewhat ragged and there was missing journeys, short workings and quite long delays. We were held up by a petrol station queue near Hadleigh depot, not for long as it was on a dual carriageway but tricky as there was a bus stop while we were trying to pass the queue. Past Benfleet station and quite scenic (in a rustic abandoned boats on dry land sort of way) across the short bridge to the island but as soon as we got there we hit another queue. I can understand why you might queue to leave Canvey island but not to get on it! Through non-descript housing estates I escaped at Canvey town centre one-way system rather than stay on the the bitter end. I did this as I could see a 21 was nearby and would turn up to take me back via a different route. The 21 was another Streetlite and was running 30 minutes late, but went past the Esplanade area on the south of the island where there was a pleasure beach and activities. Unfortunately, because of the occasional flooding, you would only be able to see the river on a double decker. We left the island by a different route and the queue to get onto the island was even worse here! I don't think either of these queues was petrol station related. Sorry but Canvey Island is not worth a visit.

I got off the 21 at Benfleet Station and took a train to Grays, somewhere I hadn't been to since the 1970s I reckon, and I couldn't remember much. I walked down from the station to the river front here but again flood protection improvements meant there wasn't much to see. At the bus station there were lots of smart blue and silver Ensign buses including BCIs, a type I had not seen before. Ensign's fleet was well presented and uniform, unlike First. After a short breather I took a First 5A (E400) back to Basildon. This is an alternative to the 'trunk' 100 service, seems to be mainly double deckers compared to the Volvo 7900 hybrids on the 100, and was in slightly less disarray than the 100 was. Two petrol stations in Stanford-le-Hope caused problems but worse for the other direction and we were back in Basildon about 20 minutes late.

So little sign of staff shortages in South Essex, at least for the major operators, although Stephensons obviously have a problem. First and Arriva buses both seemed pretty well turned out and were running OK until the petrol station fiasco and Friday afternoon traffic disrupted things, even then they seemed to give it their best shot and things kept running. Arriva's buses were predominantly in the current colours, Firsts mostly but with a few older and different liveries. Stephensons buses all looked smart and clean, as did Ensign. Very different from the scenery of my previous trips in Northumberland but enjoyable none the less.

As The Grand Wazoo has baited me for some scenic pictures here are a handful - one even has a bus in it!
Rayleigh: Shoeburyness: Southend
Southend: Leigh on Sea: Leigh on Sea
Basildon montage.jpg
 
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A0

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Interesting that the wider development will feature a new high quality public transport facility. Something that Stevenage lacks (I could almost hear the ghostly rattle of a Leyland 510 in there) and indeed, was absent in all my stopping off points. The bus station in WGC was ok but the rest....

Knowing the area quite well, though not having lived there for some years now, my observations would be:

Hemel - the old bus station was dire and in a poor location - the new one is better sited, especially as most buses also serve Marlowes which means both ends of the shopping area get served, which wasn't always the case.

St Albans - never had a bus station as such and St Peter's Street only really works for buses running through - when they start terminating there it gets messy.

Hatfield - again, never had a bus station (the one built on the old BAe site at Comet Way really doesn't count) and Hatfield's quite spread out with the station, the 'New Town' centre, the Galleria and University all in different places.

Welwyn Gdn City - that bus station dates from the late 1980s when the Howard Centre was built - but has been recently reconfigured.

Hertford - that dates from the early 80s I believe - I think it's fine for the size of town, Hertford's pretty small and it doesn't have the volume of traffic that Hitchin for example has.

Harlow - I remember the old Harlow bus station - not been to Harlow for years so can't comment.

Stevenage - as you say about to be redeveloped. The old bus station was pretty dingy though particularly when Ted the Grass (aka Edward the Confessor) was next to it.

Luton - the old Luton bus station was nasty. Putting the new one next to the station makes far more sense, though it does make the railway station seem even worse !
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Knowing the area quite well, though not having lived there for some years now, my observations would be:

Hemel - the old bus station was dire and in a poor location - the new one is better sited, especially as most buses also serve Marlowes which means both ends of the shopping area get served, which wasn't always the case.

St Albans - never had a bus station as such and St Peter's Street only really works for buses running through - when they start terminating there it gets messy.

Hatfield - again, never had a bus station (the one built on the old BAe site at Comet Way really doesn't count) and Hatfield's quite spread out with the station, the 'New Town' centre, the Galleria and University all in different places.

Welwyn Gdn City - that bus station dates from the late 1980s when the Howard Centre was built - but has been recently reconfigured.

Hertford - that dates from the early 80s I believe - I think it's fine for the size of town, Hertford's pretty small and it doesn't have the volume of traffic that Hitchin for example has.

Harlow - I remember the old Harlow bus station - not been to Harlow for years so can't comment.

Stevenage - as you say about to be redeveloped. The old bus station was pretty dingy though particularly when Ted the Grass (aka Edward the Confessor) was next to it.

Luton - the old Luton bus station was nasty. Putting the new one next to the station makes far more sense, though it does make the railway station seem even worse !
Does Hemel have a new bus station? Just seems like a collection of roadside stops by the former Debenhams and then a more comprehensive number further up the town centre.... unless I missed something?

Hertford is not a great bus station. I'd agree that it's big enough but it's a very pleasant place to wait for a bus. It seems odd that the islands on the stands don't have bus shelters so you have to stand in the lee of the car park and sprint across if it's raining.

Not certain I'd agree that St Albans never had a bus station. It did, being adjacent to the depot but quite distinct as a bus station although the ornamental gardens were removed to increase parking when depots were closed. Mind you, it was a bit peripheral up the top of St Peters Street and the current arrangements are probably appropriate even if the constant stream of cars wasn't particularly nice.

I'd agree that almost anything would be better than the hellhole that was Bute Street bus station in Luton. One for the connoisseurs of bad bus stations and yes, the new facility is better. Good that there's the Starbucks but it's rather rudimentary. I actually quite like some parts of Luton station with its 1930s architecture - it just needs a lot of TLC but I guess that when redevelopment comes, it will all be swept away
 

SteveHFC

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I've recently started using the Arriva buses in Luton & Dunstable again recently, having had my driving licence revoked on medical grounds at the beginning of the year. I realise this is only from my own personal experience, but I've had no issues regarding buses not turning up or running late. The vast majority of trips I've made have seen the buses turn up pretty much on time, and the buses are generally nice and clean on the inside, even if some are a bit tatty.
 

RELL6L

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Does Hemel have a new bus station? Just seems like a collection of roadside stops by the former Debenhams and then a more comprehensive number further up the town centre.... unless I missed something?

Hertford is not a great bus station. I'd agree that it's big enough but it's a very pleasant place to wait for a bus. It seems odd that the islands on the stands don't have bus shelters so you have to stand in the lee of the car park and sprint across if it's raining.

Not certain I'd agree that St Albans never had a bus station. It did, being adjacent to the depot but quite distinct as a bus station although the ornamental gardens were removed to increase parking when depots were closed. Mind you, it was a bit peripheral up the top of St Peters Street and the current arrangements are probably appropriate even if the constant stream of cars wasn't particularly nice.

I'd agree that almost anything would be better than the hellhole that was Bute Street bus station in Luton. One for the connoisseurs of bad bus stations and yes, the new facility is better. Good that there's the Starbucks but it's rather rudimentary. I actually quite like some parts of Luton station with its 1930s architecture - it just needs a lot of TLC but I guess that when redevelopment comes, it will all be swept away

St Albans had a 'bus garage forecourt'. It was used for terminating services from the south and east, mainly run by the St Albans garage but also short journeys on the 321 (which never had a St Albans allocation). Now I think they just do a U turn at the roundabout at the top of St Peters Street and wait time at the bus stops. There never was a satisfactory turning point from the north and west, terminating services from this direction generally went on to the station and turned there. Not describable as a 'bus station', just a few stops outside.

I liked the old Hertford bus station but that went years ago, it would be far too big now. The old Luton one was awful. Always thought Stevenage was OK. In my time the Leyland National was not as prevalent in Stevenage as in other places, they didn't have a local allocation for some years, there was just the 300/303 from Hatfield passing through, originally with early full length versions with 'bumslider' seats thrown off coach work by the first dual purpose ones. Most local services were run by farebox Atlanteans with the 'Superbus' service run mainly by Swifts and Metro Scanias, including three ex King Alfred. Also 3 RTs because the Atlanteans could not fit under a bridge on the road to Hitchin. So my 'sound' of the old bus station is 0680 Atlanteans and the glorious roar of Metro Scanias. And Charles Cook came in with Metropolitans later... Harlow similarly had farebox Atlanteans on nearly all the local services - how low have they fallen now!

As per above I went to Basildon last week, the bus station there is a dire concrete horror, but at least there are some shops in it. Southend, by contrast, is modern and bright and close to the central shopping street.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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St Albans had a 'bus garage forecourt'. It was used for terminating services from the south and east, mainly run by the St Albans garage but also short journeys on the 321 (which never had a St Albans allocation).
Ah....but when is a forecourt not a bus station? :s
I liked the old Hertford bus station but that went years ago, it would be far too big now. The old Luton one was awful. Always thought Stevenage was OK. In my time the Leyland National was not as prevalent in Stevenage as in other places, they didn't have a local allocation for some years, there was just the 300/303 from Hatfield passing through, originally with early full length versions with 'bumslider' seats thrown off coach work by the first dual purpose ones. Most local services were run by farebox Atlanteans with the 'Superbus' service run mainly by Swifts and Metro Scanias, including three ex King Alfred.
Indeed, the Atlantean is probably a more representative ghost. Stevenage did have Nationals as many were inflicted on LCBS. This particular photo shows just how we should refrain from thinking it was all good in the past https://www.flickr.com/photos/16794...-2kzo8Ya-9bki2B-2m5zvCe-7ZNPWz-86qADb-g5S35F/ - credit to the photographer Paul
 

A0

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St Albans had a 'bus garage forecourt'. It was used for terminating services from the south and east, mainly run by the St Albans garage but also short journeys on the 321 (which never had a St Albans allocation). Now I think they just do a U turn at the roundabout at the top of St Peters Street and wait time at the bus stops. There never was a satisfactory turning point from the north and west, terminating services from this direction generally went on to the station and turned there. Not describable as a 'bus station', just a few stops outside.

I liked the old Hertford bus station but that went years ago, it would be far too big now. The old Luton one was awful. Always thought Stevenage was OK. In my time the Leyland National was not as prevalent in Stevenage as in other places, they didn't have a local allocation for some years, there was just the 300/303 from Hatfield passing through, originally with early full length versions with 'bumslider' seats thrown off coach work by the first dual purpose ones. Most local services were run by farebox Atlanteans with the 'Superbus' service run mainly by Swifts and Metro Scanias, including three ex King Alfred. Also 3 RTs because the Atlanteans could not fit under a bridge on the road to Hitchin. So my 'sound' of the old bus station is 0680 Atlanteans and the glorious roar of Metro Scanias. And Charles Cook came in with Metropolitans later... Harlow similarly had farebox Atlanteans on nearly all the local services - how low have they fallen now!

As per above I went to Basildon last week, the bus station there is a dire concrete horror, but at least there are some shops in it. Southend, by contrast, is modern and bright and close to the central shopping street.

Erm, Stevenage actually got the first couple of Nationals for the Superbus services. The MS's only lasted ~5 years, introduced in '72/'73 gone by '78.

The LNs then would have arrived from Hatfield on 300/303 among others.

Does Hemel have a new bus station? Just seems like a collection of roadside stops by the former Debenhams and then a more comprehensive number further up the town centre.... unless I missed something?

Well, those bus stops are technically the bus station - but the old bus station wasn't exactly salubrious or packed with facilities for passengers. The oddity with Hemel unlike Stevenage or Harlow (as other New Towns) is there were still alot of on-street bus stops near the shops rather than just the bus station.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Erm, Stevenage actually got the first couple of Nationals for the Superbus services. The MS's only lasted ~5 years, introduced in '72/'73 gone by '78.

The LNs then would have arrived from Hatfield on 300/303 among others.



Well, those bus stops are technically the bus station - but the old bus station wasn't exactly salubrious or packed with facilities for passengers. The oddity with Hemel unlike Stevenage or Harlow (as other New Towns) is there were still alot of on-street bus stops near the shops rather than just the bus station.
Ah right - I wasn't being snarky but wondered if I'd not spotted something :D

Interesting how Hemel is markedly different, Stevenage has changed a bit from its New Town "heyday" but is still recognisable and is reasonably well kept whilst Harlow is quite the time capsule!
 

A0

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Ah right - I wasn't being snarky but wondered if I'd not spotted something :D

Interesting how Hemel is markedly different, Stevenage has changed a bit from its New Town "heyday" but is still recognisable and is reasonably well kept whilst Harlow is quite the time capsule!

I think that Hemel's the "best" of the 3 as a town. I wonder if this is in part because of the fact its local council, Dacorum, actually covers more than just Hemel as it includes other towns like Tring and Berkhamsted as well as the villages. Whereas Stevenage Borough Council only covers Stevenage so places like Hitchin or Knebworth which neighbour Stevenage are covered by North Herts District Council. Harlow's similar to Stevenage in that respect. And both their councils have been overwhelmingly run by one party for a very long time.

In terms of their bus provision - since privatisation their path to where they are today was London Country North East (LCNE) for Stevenage and Harlow, London Country NW (LCNW) for Hemel.

I don't think there's any doubt LCNW was a better operation than LCNE.

When LCNE was split Harlow went to County Bus along with Hertford and Grays whilst Stevenage went to Sovereign. Again, I think it's fair to say County was a better operation than Sovereign.

Things improved in Stevenage when Luton and District (L&D) bought out most of the Sovereign operation - and it was clear the presentation standards and reliability improved. L&D also bought out LCNW, again presentation and standards seemed to improve. AJS / Blazefield always seemed to struggle with the Sovereign operation - and its poor performance in terms of profitability was ultimately the reason AJS sold it.

Of course all have ended up back under the same ownership with Arriva. But all seem to be struggling to maintain a viable operation - and I keep tracing the root cause of that back to the LT parentage of London Country.
 
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RELL6L

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Yes, Stevenage did have Nationals, just not many, and I think the first ones were soon swapped out to King Alfred in exchange for the MSs, as these seven were the only ones NBC had anywhere. And yes they came through from Hatfield on the 300/303. But in terms of departures per hour - and in particular my personal memory - the Atlanteans reigned supreme at that time. Much later they got more Nationals, in the days of the B-type smaller version for rural services.

And yes St Albans garage forecourt was a bus station in all but name. It had different stands for different routes all properly laid out with timetables etc. And an enquiry office. The good old days!

Quite agree that when they split LCNE was the worst of the four while LCNW was quite a bit better. They both overextended themselves with London tenders (as did SE) running motely collections of all sorts, I remember cast-off Glasgow Atlanteans with the panoramic Alexander bodies that were prone to fall apart, I think on the 292. I vaguely recall Hatfield having a strike at some point and closing shortly thereafter. St Albans was all single deck then took on the 84 with Olympians but lost it again to LT (Metroline) again before long. Meanwhile Metroline competed on the 310 from Enfield to Hertford. There were other equally dodgy competitors for London and other routes, Sampsons, East Midland with REs running down on a bizarre route from Mansfield to somewhere (Brentwood?) to operate local Essex routes, Eastern National on the 107 (or 307)... I think both LCNW and LCNE came pretty close to financial disaster at this time.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Yes, Stevenage did have Nationals, just not many, and I think the first ones were soon swapped out to King Alfred in exchange for the MSs, as these seven were the only ones NBC had anywhere. And yes they came through from Hatfield on the 300/303. But in terms of departures per hour - and in particular my personal memory - the Atlanteans reigned supreme at that time. Much later they got more Nationals, in the days of the B-type smaller version for rural services.

And yes St Albans garage forecourt was a bus station in all but name. It had different stands for different routes all properly laid out with timetables etc. And an enquiry office. The good old days!

Quite agree that when they split LCNE was the worst of the four while LCNW was quite a bit better. They both overextended themselves with London tenders (as did SE) running motely collections of all sorts, I remember cast-off Glasgow Atlanteans with the panoramic Alexander bodies that were prone to fall apart, I think on the 292. I vaguely recall Hatfield having a strike at some point and closing shortly thereafter. St Albans was all single deck then took on the 84 with Olympians but lost it again to LT (Metroline) again before long. Meanwhile Metroline competed on the 310 from Enfield to Hertford. There were other equally dodgy competitors for London and other routes, Sampsons, East Midland with REs running down on a bizarre route from Mansfield to somewhere (Brentwood?) to operate local Essex routes, Eastern National on the 107 (or 307)... I think both LCNW and LCNE came pretty close to financial disaster at this time.
The interesting bit (getting back to Arriva) is how they via Drawlane/British Bus and then buying Blazefield all but reunited London Country under common ownership (albeit excepting Slough). Since then, they've all but exited what was the South West business with just Guildford remaining and a few remnants of other routes, have largely left Sevenoaks area (former SE), and the rest is pared back from where it was.

LCNE was a basket case losing £5.5m in 20 months before being split (according to Wikipedia) - I seem to recall that both Hatfield and Stevenage depots had industrial action but we are talking 30+ years ago. BTW, I think they had the 292 and 313 (?) and East Midland ran from Mansfield to Ongar with an outbase at Wyatts Green.
 

RELL6L

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The 313 was always a London Country route through from St Albans to Enfield. It ran hourly during the day with hourly peak extras between Potters Bar and Enfield. It was run by RFs from St Albans. At this time the 84 bypassed Potters Bar so the 313 was the only route between St Albans and Potters Bar. Even though St Albans had MBS Merlins and SMW Swifts I do not recall ever seeing either class on the 313, although the ghastly Bristol LHSs did occasionally appear. Eventually St Albans got a small batch of short Nationals which started on the 313. I don't think it was tendered, nor was it a 'London' route, probably until St Albans closed. I don't know if it was ever worked by Potters Bar but now it is worked by Enfield, with a much better service than ever before. Equally Potters Bar to St Albans now has a better service with the 84.

Yes Arriva have put a lot of it back together but its somewhat hotch-potch, with all of Surrey sold except Guildford, which I had always thought of as probably the least financially successful bit with competition from other operators as against monopolies in Crawley, Reigate, Leatherhead, Croydon hinterlands etc which have all gone. The Sevenoaks area was always difficult territory and all that remains is the 402 coming in from Tunbridge Wells, a Maidstone & District town, and the 308 from Gravesend, a former M&D route but from an LC garage (Northfleet). Grays remains but only runs London routes of which the 370 is the only recognisable one from London Country days, everything else they then ran has gone to Ensign or elsewhere. While Arriva has a presence in St Albans, Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City there isn't a depot in this area, buses coming in from Stevenage and Hemel. Nor does Watford even have a depot! Apart from the trunk routes and Watford locals most services have been lost to independents such as Uno and Centrebus. The Amersham area is long since abandoned except for the single route 1 from High Wycombe. High Wycombe was also sold into City of Oxford but then turned up back again. The Slough, Staines and Weybridge areas were also sold and abandoned. Arriva seem to be constantly reorganising regions so that parts are under the Midlands region and parts the south east, not good for consistency.

Back in the day London Country was run on similar lines as London Transport, with rigid rules on scheduling, duty length, vehicle types etc, although more relaxed in that (unlike LT) one bus could switch between routes during the course of a driver's duty. But compared to the more nimble competitors from further out it must have been an incredibly high cost operation. It suffered horribly during the mid-1970s from shortage of spare parts and drivers and really never recovered.
 

A0

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Yes, Stevenage did have Nationals, just not many, and I think the first ones were soon swapped out to King Alfred in exchange for the MSs, as these seven were the only ones NBC had anywhere. And yes they came through from Hatfield on the 300/303. But in terms of departures per hour - and in particular my personal memory - the Atlanteans reigned supreme at that time. Much later they got more Nationals, in the days of the B-type smaller version for rural services.

And yes St Albans garage forecourt was a bus station in all but name. It had different stands for different routes all properly laid out with timetables etc. And an enquiry office. The good old days!

Quite agree that when they split LCNE was the worst of the four while LCNW was quite a bit better. They both overextended themselves with London tenders (as did SE) running motely collections of all sorts, I remember cast-off Glasgow Atlanteans with the panoramic Alexander bodies that were prone to fall apart, I think on the 292. I vaguely recall Hatfield having a strike at some point and closing shortly thereafter. St Albans was all single deck then took on the 84 with Olympians but lost it again to LT (Metroline) again before long. Meanwhile Metroline competed on the 310 from Enfield to Hertford. There were other equally dodgy competitors for London and other routes, Sampsons, East Midland with REs running down on a bizarre route from Mansfield to somewhere (Brentwood?) to operate local Essex routes, Eastern National on the 107 (or 307)... I think both LCNW and LCNE came pretty close to financial disaster at this time.

London Country North East (LCNE) had a strike which I think affected all of its depots, not just Hatfield and Stevenage. It lead to them losing their LRT contracts, the 292 to BTS, 298 and 313 to Grey Green. They didn't look at London again until the early '90s when as Sovereign they took on some local routes in Harrow.

Sampson's weren't competition. They were a particularly shoddy operator even by the motley standards of the mid 1980s. They'd been running coaches for some years, they were a particular favourite for schools work. At tendering the only Hertfordshire work they got was the Welwyn / Hatfield locals ('G' routes) - they took them over in mid 1986 and were gone by early 1988 before LCNE's strike IIRC, in no small part due to a bunch of ex LCNE drivers setting up Welwyn Hatfield Line in August 1987 - which immediately emptied the Sampson's services and led to Herts County Council (HCC) withdrawing their subsidy on virtually all the routes (there was a revised G4 and a couple of peak hour services left). They ran a particularly decrepit fleet of Fleetlines, Bristol REs and Nationals and attracted widespread criticism for lack of standards wherever they operated - they also got turfed out of some LRT contracts for similar reasons. Eventually Sampson's sold out to County Bus - who took over Sampson's depot in Hoddesdon which allowed them to close the old Hertford depot.

The 84 is an odd one - although it ran to Barnet it was in fact an HCC contract and passed to London Country in 1982 from LT before de-regulation or privatisation of the National Bus Company. It went back to LT in 1986.

Eastern National did rather better with LRT contracts - going to the extent of setting up a division to specifically bid for and run such routes. That said I'm not sure which has fared worse, Eastern National under First or the old London Country / Luton and District areas under Arriva.

The 313 was always a London Country route through from St Albans to Enfield. It ran hourly during the day with hourly peak extras between Potters Bar and Enfield. It was run by RFs from St Albans. At this time the 84 bypassed Potters Bar so the 313 was the only route between St Albans and Potters Bar. Even though St Albans had MBS Merlins and SMW Swifts I do not recall ever seeing either class on the 313, although the ghastly Bristol LHSs did occasionally appear. Eventually St Albans got a small batch of short Nationals which started on the 313. I don't think it was tendered, nor was it a 'London' route, probably until St Albans closed. I don't know if it was ever worked by Potters Bar but now it is worked by Enfield, with a much better service than ever before. Equally Potters Bar to St Albans now has a better service with the 84.
The 313 stopped running up to St Albans in 1982 https://www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/current/313.html with the Potters Bar - St Albans section replaced with a revised 84.

I think after this point it was a London route, whereas the 84 was an Herts County Council route.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The 313 was always a London Country route through from St Albans to Enfield. It ran hourly during the day with hourly peak extras between Potters Bar and Enfield. It was run by RFs from St Albans. At this time the 84 bypassed Potters Bar so the 313 was the only route between St Albans and Potters Bar. Even though St Albans had MBS Merlins and SMW Swifts I do not recall ever seeing either class on the 313, although the ghastly Bristol LHSs did occasionally appear. Eventually St Albans got a small batch of short Nationals which started on the 313. I don't think it was tendered, nor was it a 'London' route, probably until St Albans closed. I don't know if it was ever worked by Potters Bar but now it is worked by Enfield, with a much better service than ever before. Equally Potters Bar to St Albans now has a better service with the 84.
It was a different incarnation of the 313 https://bus-routes-in-london.fandom.com/wiki/London_Buses_route_313. They had the 298 as well - all being stripped from them for poor performance as it was indeed an LRT service as Zippy illustrates https://www.flickr.com/photos/theoriginalzippy/21817372158/in/photolist-zeVJCW-nuu7Nq

EDIT: @A0wen beat me to this
 
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A0

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It was a different incarnation of the 313 https://bus-routes-in-london.fandom.com/wiki/London_Buses_route_313. They had the 298 as well - all being stripped from them for poor performance as it was indeed an LRT service as Zippy illustrates https://www.flickr.com/photos/theoriginalzippy/21817372158/in/photolist-zeVJCW-nuu7Nq

EDIT: @A0wen beat me to this

Yes - and the "old" 313 (i.e. which ran to St Albans) disappeared long before St Albans garage closed.

The LRT 298 and 313s (i.e. 1986 onward) were actually operated from Hatfield - they may have been interworked with the 300 / 303 which at that time ran to Potters Bar. The 292 was operated by St Albans.

The interesting bit (getting back to Arriva) is how they via Drawlane/British Bus and then buying Blazefield all but reunited London Country under common ownership (albeit excepting Slough). Since then, they've all but exited what was the South West business with just Guildford remaining and a few remnants of other routes, have largely left Sevenoaks area (former SE), and the rest is pared back from where it was.

Quite - though the old North East and North West areas have seen a fair bit of contraction. Garston garage has gone with all Watford services being run from Hemel now. They don't have a depot in St Albans or Hatfield - both off loaded during the Blazefield era.

They don't operate any of the local services in St Albans (all in the hands of independents), they only operate a couple of the locals in Hemel or Watford (again the bulk in the hands of independents). But then you see some really bizarre things - like they don't have the Hertford locals but they do have the Ware ones ? And bizarrely they do have the two remaining Welwyn Garden City locals - particularly ironic since the Welwyn GC 'G' routes were ones London Country lost completely in the first franchise round back in 1986 - so must be operating those from Stevenage or Hertford with the dead mileage.

That said Herts County Council don't help in some ways - that new 324 running from Ware / Hertford - Welwyn GC is particularly bizarre, when the 724 barely carries more than a handful of people between Welwyn GC and Hertford - and they've even got an hourly Sunday service on it...... When I'm bored one Sunday I must pop down there and go for a ride, I'd probably increase the usage by 100% on whichever journey I got on.
 
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Flange Squeal

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It might not come as a surprise to some to learn that Guildford depot is now set to close.

 
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