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Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

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MotCO

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It might not come as a surprise to some to learn that Guildford depot is now set to close.


If the routes are mostly commercial, would they be attractive to other operators? Safeguard is obviously established in town, and may want to expand if it is cost effective. Other contenders will be Falcon and Compass, and obviously Stagecoach. Will any routes be dropped requiring Surrey CC to step in?

I'm assuming that the Arriva Guildford operations will not continue to be operated by Arriva but from another depot.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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If the routes are mostly commercial, would they be attractive to other operators? Safeguard is obviously established in town, and may want to expand if it is cost effective. Other contenders will be Falcon and Compass, and obviously Stagecoach. Will any routes be dropped requiring Surrey CC to step in?

I'm assuming that the Arriva Guildford operations will not continue to be operated by Arriva but from another depot.
There are no other depots nearby - the nearest is probably Croydon so 30 miles away?

It has been expected; about 18 months ago, it was rumoured that a sale was nearly agreed. As it is, Covid stepped in and they have elected to close down - the culmination of a calamitous tenure where Arriva essentially walked away from the former London and Country business, closing down Merstham, Woking and Cranleigh, selling Crawley and Warnham, and now closing down Guildford.

As for who will go in now, I imagine stuff like the 436 will be attractive to operators like White Bus and even Hallmark in addition to Falcon, whilst you'd think that Stagecoach would also be interested in some of those. Guildford to Woking will be the most valued corridor, I'd suspect.
 

Flange Squeal

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If the routes are mostly commercial, would they be attractive to other operators? Safeguard is obviously established in town, and may want to expand if it is cost effective. Other contenders will be Falcon and Compass, and obviously Stagecoach. Will any routes be dropped requiring Surrey CC to step in?

I'm assuming that the Arriva Guildford operations will not continue to be operated by Arriva but from another depot.
I can't personally see Arriva continuing anything, as the other depots on the Kent & Surrey licence are 60-70 miles away in Tunbridge Wells, Maidstone and Gillingham. I think the nearest provincial Arriva premises would be The Shires' High Wycombe, but even that is best part of 40 miles. If there was a more local relocation, even if only retaining some routes, then I'd assume that would be mentioned to help soften the blow?

In terms of where routes would likely go, that is anyone's guess. The 34/35 and 91 are particularly good performers in terms of passenger numbers, and so I'd reckon might be the most attractive routes. White Bus have expanded massively in the last four years and have a good sized depot in Woking now, so I'd expect them to show an interest, particularly the 91 and 436 right on their doorstep. Falcon have similarly grown substantially since the demise of Abellio Surrey, with constant investment in new vehicles of late, and the 436 through Brooklands, and onto Weybridge, runs handily close to their depot for efficient driver changeovers. The 91 requires 5 vehicles at its peak so is a potentially manageable addition for a smaller operator given its patronage, but the 34/35 at current frequencies are probably closer to 10 vehicles. An off-peak round trip is around 3 hours (wthout layover time), with a combined frequency currently of three per hour, so you're probably looking at around 10+ vehicles for those if that service level was retained. The 436 is less than an hour each way, and easily achieved by two vehicles for an hourly frequency or four vehicles for half-hourly, with decent enough time for layovers and therefore a fairly modest output. Both operators have been prepared to take on commercial routes given up by other operators in the past - White Bus the 441 (2 vehicle PVR), and Falcon the 28 (2 vehicles) and 461 (I think at the time around 5 vehicles PVR).

In terms of the remaining routes, the 18 is only a 24 minute round trip at an hourly frequency, so a prime candidate for potential interworking for the sake of efficiency. It could in theory fit within the 46 minute turnaround of Compass' 32, however I think Dunsfold rosters drivers and vehicles together so that would require a rejig of how they do things. Stagecoach operate several already interworked routes into Guildford, so it could probably be slotted into their patterns (the 17/70/71/72/46/65 all interwork with at least some of eachother at points during the day). Arriva appear to currently interwork it primarily with the 36/37 town circulars. Stagecoach would probably be my bet for that little one, although Safeguard would also be ideally placed.

Geographically, the 53/63 to Ewhurst/Horsham would be a good fit for Compass, as they already operate pretty much everything else (bar Carlone's limited day minibus shoppers) in Cranleigh and the immediate surrounds - 24/25/42/43/45/64/69. It would come at the cost of I'd guess 6-7 vehicles though, without long layovers encompassing driver breaks as per their current Dunsfold modus operandi. That could probably be reduced to around 5ish if they opted for hourly on each route, to give a combined half-hourly Guildford to Cranleigh, rather than the current hourly 63 and uneven headway 2bph on the 53 to give 3bph Guildford to Cranleigh.

36/37 town circulars I'd reckon require maybe 5/6 vehicles for their 20 minute frequencies, with potential efficiency if combined with the 18 Onslow Village circular. I'd love to see Safeguard take these on, but I'm not sure if that might be too big a jump in vehicle numbers for them? They successfully won the Park Barn battle when Arriva barged in, even coming out of the fight with Arriva's Bellfields under their arm. They are a good quality operator with a good reputation in Guildford, so it would almost certainly be beneficial to passengers. And a totally irrelevant point, dropping the 3 to make 6/7 would also be good for anyone who, like me, has a silly OCD thing when it comes to bus numbers - Guildford would have a 1-8, and Safeguard a 3/4/5/6/7 :oops:

Finally, the 479 had been commercial for a long time under operators including Countryliner, Sunray Travel and Buses Excetera. When Buses Excetera ceased, it was the last route to find a new operator. The current hourly end-to-end with hourly Bookham shorts (to offer a half-hourly frequency Bookham to Epsom) I calculate to require 4 vehicles, so again a potentially manageable addition for even a smaller operator. While it was commercial prior to Arriva taking it on after Excetera's demise in 2019, the current Arriva route registration says it is supported by subsidies. Not sure if this means it is now a full tender, or if there is just a de minimis funding situation? Like the 53/63, the timetable is very much geared towards operation from the Guildford end, however I can't remember if that's just a more recent thing as, while Countryliner/Sunray ran it from Guildford/Woking, the last operator ran it from Merstham (very much beyond the eastern end, but then we know what happened to them...). Metrobus have had modest expansion with local Epsom area Surrey County Council tenders, so they might even be a contender for that (but then so have Falcon thinking about it). Stagecoach currently operate the tendered Sunday service on the 479.

The A is purely competitive, with Safeguard offering a frequent and established link between Guildford and the hospital, so I doubt that will see replacement by anyone.

Stagecoach are the largest 'big' operator in the area so are perhaps best placed in terms of vehicle resource availability for some of these routes, being able to potentially call on other divisions for vehicles, but I'm not sure how much spare space they have at their Peasmarsh premises these days? The yard has looked pretty full when been past outside of main operating hours for a nosey, but then there have also still been staff cars taking up some of that space, so maybe something could be done if that is the case. Arriva currently manage Guildford bus station, so someone may also get the opportunity to keep buses there overnight like I believe Arriva might do currently (or at least they have an authorisation of seven there). There are some (elderly!) Enviros in the current Arriva fleet should they wish to take some of that on, but it's mainly 2006/2012 Citaros and 2010/11 Versas these days.

These are of course just my completely uneducated ramblings. I'd assume if a deal with another group had been agreed as per Cannock/D&G and Yorkshire Tiger/Transdev then this would have been mentioned in the press release? Assuming that's not the case, my bets are on independents for the 91/436, Stagecoach on the 34/35/36/37, Compass on the 53/63, and I can't decide between Stagecoach or Metrobus for the 479. Lets see how very wrong I probably get proven! :lol:
 
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alex397

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Really not surprising to hear this at all.

It may be different this time, but I wonder if another operator will become much more successful. Just like happened in Crawley when they sold to Metrobus. It’s certainly not the only example of Arriva giving up routes / whole depots and other operators managing to make much more of a success of it.
 

RELL6L

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This is not at all surprising.

Stagecoach would be the obvious party to be interested in the decent routes, but at the moment with National Express, strikes, driver shortages etc on their in tray this may not be the time for them to be doing anything. And I understand their Peasmarsh depot is not that large. I would assume that Guildford's Arriva depot is freehold - it goes back a long time - and may not be for sale although whether housing would be approved here is far from certain I guess.

If not Stagecoach then anybody else would surely be nervous of taking on much as they might feel they would have to be looking over their shoulders for Stagecoach all the time unless Stagecoach made a commitment not to compete on certain routes - not sure that's allowed. Maybe the baton will fall at the feet of Surrey County Council to organise / cajole operators to take routes on one by one. Maybe Stagecoach can take some work on from Aldershot - perhaps interworking with the Kite - as well as Peasmarsh. I agree Compass from the Horsham direction maybe and independents in the Woking area. Not sure if Metrobus would be interested in getting involved at the present time although there may still be a few pilots in the Horsham area looking for something to do! I guess the 34/35 and 91 are profitable but they don't fit very comfortably for anyone. The 479 certainly doesn't. Perhaps Safeguard for some local work but they seem pretty cautious. The buses won't be an attraction to a purchaser and I don't suppose operators will want to take on any staff via TUPE, they'll perhaps wait for Arriva to make them redundant and then recruit.

Interesting times.
 
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Sale of the business as a going concern to another company fell through as Arriva were only interested in selling Leas Road for luxury riverside flats at a vastly inflated price leaving approximately 40 buses with no home.
 

duncombec

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Sale of the business as a going concern to another company fell through as Arriva were only interested in selling Leas Road for luxury riverside flats at a vastly inflated price leaving approximately 40 buses with no home.
Would that be luxury riverside flats that will get a bit wet next time the site floods?

I note from one of the comments (and subsequent Google search) to the Hants & Surrey Bus Blog Post linked to in post #391 that South Wigston depot in Leicestershire is also closing this month, with buses/services moving to Thurmaston.

I don't think we've seen the end of this retrenchment just yet...
 
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It might not come as a surprise to some to learn that Guildford depot is now set to close.

That is a shame to hear. I suppose with the corona virus they have probably not been making much profits.

I wonder who will take over. I suppose that Stagecoach and the independents (eg, Carlone Buses, Compass Bus, Falcon Buses, Rotala Diamond Bus, Safeguard Bus, White Bus Services, etc) will likely take over the routes. I would not really be surprised if Go Ahead Metrobus will be taking over the 53 and 63 and 479 routes. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Is there a date set yet for when Guildford depot will close? If not is it likely to be this year or next year?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Would that be luxury riverside flats that will get a bit wet next time the site floods?

I note from one of the comments (and subsequent Google search) to the Hants & Surrey Bus Blog Post linked to in post #391 that South Wigston depot in Leicestershire is also closing this month, with buses/services moving to Thurmaston.

I don't think we've seen the end of this retrenchment just yet...
Confirmation of it here https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/fond-memories-one-leicesters-oldest-5813470 but again, it was widely rumoured and it's reflective of the retrenchment of Arriva even in one of its former strongholds.

A spokesperson for Arriva said: "Arriva can confirm our Wigston Depot is to be sold later this year, with all bus services operating from our Thurmaston depot.

"The sale does not cause any impact on our customer journeys and we’re working closely with our union to support a smooth transition to Thurmaston and Hinckley depots for our Wigston team.


"Arriva is still proudly serving Leicester and surrounding areas, through our extensive bus network"
That is a shame to hear. I suppose with the corona virus they have probably not been making much profits.

I wonder who will take over. I suppose that Stagecoach and the independents (eg, Carlone Buses, Compass Bus, Falcon Buses, Rotala Diamond Bus, Safeguard Bus, White Bus Services, etc) will likely take over the routes. I would not really be surprised if Go Ahead Metrobus will be taking over the 53 and 63 and 479 routes. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Is there a date set yet for when Guildford depot will close? If not is it likely to be this year or next year?
They were looking to exit before Coronavirus was an issue. The rumours were swirling two years ago especially when the restructure of Arriva Southern Counties was announced.

Appreciate the pressure of Stagecoach's Peasmarsh depot but wonder if they might consider a Woking outstation, or simply seek to find an additional yard, or just do a bit of shuffling with Aldershot?
 

Surreyman

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Guildford - many possibilities re replacement operators, the 18 is I believe a tendered operation, so may be reassigned by Surrey County Council sooner rather than later, it mostly carries fresh air (I see it most days).
Given the issues around resources - depots & staff, I would suspect we could see the routes divided between:
Stagecoach/Safeguard/Whitebus/Falcon/Reptons/Compass.
Worth mentioning that as well as Leas road depot, Arriva have 'on paper' an operators licence for Commercial road bus station for 7 vehicles, although I don't believe any vehicles are left there overnight.
I am a bit rusty on Redundancy notice periods but seem to recall that if more than 100 people, then a longer consultation period is needed.
I imagine staffing issues will be the key issue for potential replacement operators, plenty of driver vacancies around here for all sorts of delivery drivers.
There is a a geographical split in current Arriva operations with routes 47/91/436 being centred on Woking some 6/7 miles north of Guildford.
It used to be said that routes 53/63 the Gfd - Cranleigh - Ewhurst/Horsham routes were the 'moneyspinners' but this may have changed.
As a previous poster mentioned, the Stagecoach Peasmarsh depot is limited in size although there may be scope to move routes to/use Aldershot depot.
 

Hophead

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I guess that Metrobus could take on the routes in the Horsham area?

There's only the 63 and that combines with the 53 to provide a 20-minute interval service (30 on Saturdays, but used to also be every 20) from Cranleigh to Guildford. I don’t think it would be feasible for Metrobus to resource all that from Crawley, even if they have the room.

The advantage of Compass taking it on is that they would then operate all the buses in Cranleigh (the 24 runs every 2 hours to Guildford via the A281), making it simpler for fare-paying passengers. The same would also apply to the Slinfold to Horsham road.

The Compass depot at Dunsfold is also handily located.
 

RELL6L

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Sale of the business as a going concern to another company fell through as Arriva were only interested in selling Leas Road for luxury riverside flats at a vastly inflated price leaving approximately 40 buses with no home.
It's in a high risk flood area, can't see that being approved!
 

Surreyman

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It's in a high risk flood area, can't see that being approved!
Nearby developments have been built on stilts (with low level car parking), local policy is to move industry out of central Guildford, I can see this easily being approved!
I would imagine the occupants in the houses next to Leas road will be delighted, no more engine starts at 6am!
 
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There's only the 63 and that combines with the 53 to provide a 20-minute interval service (30 on Saturdays, but used to also be every 20) from Cranleigh to Guildford. I don’t think it would be feasible for Metrobus to resource all that from Crawley, even if they have the room.

The advantage of Compass taking it on is that they would then operate all the buses in Cranleigh (the 24 runs every 2 hours to Guildford via the A281), making it simpler for fare-paying passengers. The same would also apply to the Slinfold to Horsham road.

The Compass depot at Dunsfold is also handily located.
The question is would Compass Bus want to run the 53 and 63 as they are such major routes. At the moment Compass Bus seem to only run minor rural routes that all finish by around 18:00 or so and have no Sunday service. The one exception being the 37/37A/37B/37C services in the Brighton area. So maybe Compass Bus might not want the 53 and 63 which run seven days a week up until midnight.

I think that Go Ahead Metrobus would be far more likely to take over. It is no further than their E9 and E10 bus routes in Epsom which are miles away from the Crawley depot. They seem more suited to such routes. It is a shame that Metrobus shut down the Warnham depot when they bought the Horsham operations of Arriva as that would have been useful for their ever increasing Horsham and Surrey area operations.

Another option is possibly that Stagecoach could run this route. They could operate the 53 from Peasmarsh depot and the 63 from Henfield depot as i know there is not much space left at Peasmarsh depot. Then the 63 could possibly interwork with the 17 to get to and from Henfield depot.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The question is would Compass Bus want to run the 53 and 63 as they are such major routes. At the moment Compass Bus seem to only run minor rural routes that all finish by around 18:00 or so and have no Sunday service. The one exception being the 37/37A/37B/37C services in the Brighton area. So maybe Compass Bus might not want the 53 and 63 which run seven days a week up until midnight.

I think that Go Ahead Metrobus would be far more likely to take over. It is no further than their E9 and E10 bus routes in Epsom which are miles away from the Crawley depot. They seem more suited to such routes. It is a shame that Metrobus shut down the Warnham depot when they bought the Horsham operations of Arriva as that would have been useful for their ever increasing Horsham and Surrey area operations.

Another option is possibly that Stagecoach could run this route. They could operate the 53 from Peasmarsh depot and the 63 from Henfield depot as i know there is not much space left at Peasmarsh depot. Then the 63 could possibly interwork with the 17 to get to and from Henfield depot.
More pertinently, if the 53/63 are some of the better routes, wouldn't there be some interest from Stagecoach even if at the expense of something else that they currently do?
 
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More pertinently, if the 53/63 are some of the better routes, wouldn't there be some interest from Stagecoach even if at the expense of something else that they currently do?
Yes indeed i think you could be right. I think that Stagecoach would definitely be interested in the 53 and 63 routes. I would guess that these are likely to be the most profitable routes that Arriva Surrey currently run. They are always busy (with fare paying passengers rather than just OAPs like some other routes) which is not surprising as Cranleigh must be the largest place in Surrey without a railway station. So yes i think that Stagecoach will definitely be interested in taking over these routes. Out of all the Arriva Surrey routes the 53 and 63 would probably suit Stagecoach the best.
 

Flange Squeal

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Guildford - many possibilities re replacement operators, the 18 is I believe a tendered operation, so may be reassigned by Surrey County Council sooner rather than later, it mostly carries fresh air (I see it most days).
I believe the following elements of their operation that receive council support are:
  • 3 Sundays (Guildford/Bellfields) - complete
  • 18 (Guildford/Onslow Village) - complete
  • 28 (Guildford/Knaphill) - the one morning journey introduced when the route's then-new operator Buses Excetera revised the timetable, removing a commuter link between Worplesdon/Fox Corner/Pirbright and Brookwood station. It was a £4,320 de minimis, presumably to liven up what was otherwise a dead run between Guildford and Knaphill anyway to start on the 91.
  • 34 (Guildford/Camberley) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 36 (Guildford/Burpham/Merrow) - Sundays
  • 37 (Guildford/Merrow/Burpham) - Sundays
  • 47 (Brookwood/West End) - complete
  • 53 (Guildford/Ewhurst) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 91 (Guildford/Knaphill) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 479 (Guildford/Epsom) - Possibly all of it since Excetera's collapse - route registration says 'Yes' rather than 'In Part' in regards to subsidy, and no distinction between journeys made on council's timetable.
The 436 (Woking/Weybridge) I'm completely unsure about. Surrey County Council's timetable says the service is supported by the council (and Mercedes-Benz World), but the route registration says 'No' in regards to 'Supported by subsidies?'. I know the old Sunday service was, but that no longer runs.
 

Surreyman

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I believe the following elements of their operation that receive council support are:
  • 3 Sundays (Guildford/Bellfields) - complete
  • 18 (Guildford/Onslow Village) - complete
  • 28 (Guildford/Knaphill) - the one morning journey introduced when the route's then-new operator Buses Excetera revised the timetable, removing a commuter link between Worplesdon/Fox Corner/Pirbright and Brookwood station. It was a £4,320 de minimis, presumably to liven up what was otherwise a dead run between Guildford and Knaphill anyway to start on the 91.
  • 34 (Guildford/Camberley) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 36 (Guildford/Burpham/Merrow) - Sundays
  • 37 (Guildford/Merrow/Burpham) - Sundays
  • 47 (Brookwood/West End) - complete
  • 53 (Guildford/Ewhurst) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 91 (Guildford/Knaphill) - Mon-Sat evenings and all day Sunday
  • 479 (Guildford/Epsom) - Possibly all of it since Excetera's collapse - route registration says 'Yes' rather than 'In Part' in regards to subsidy, and no distinction between journeys made on council's timetable.
The 436 (Woking/Weybridge) I'm completely unsure about. Surrey County Council's timetable says the service is supported by the council (and Mercedes-Benz World), but the route registration says 'No' in regards to 'Supported by subsidies?'. I know the old Sunday service was, but that no longer runs.
We could very well end up with operators registering the commercial routes - I suppose they are not supposed to confer? Surrey County Council may then have to put the non commercial parts out to tender, some routes may then end up with more than one operator (this happens already of course).
 

Kieran1990

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arriva has starved Guildford of affordable transport over the last 20 years. Growing up there it always felt the fairs were extortionate and the service was at best shocking.
I hope Safeguard pick up the 18, 36/37 routes- those area’s deserve a local operator.
I remember safeguard were toying with the idea during the Park Barn bus wars of running a Merrow service!

Im sure it’ll come out soon enough who has got picks of the cherry from Arriva
 

Flange Squeal

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Could Safeguard take on the route 3's Sunday operation as a commercial venture?
In theory there is nothing stopping them, or anyone, registering their own commercial replacements for any of the routes - tendered or otherwise. What it would boil down to though is whether they felt it was commercially viable to do so. Not a lot in Surrey is operated commercially on Sundays, the vast majority being tendered even over in Stagecoach's Blackwater Valley area, so I'd be surprised if suddenly such operations were deemed viable now. Safeguard left Sundays well alone when they first launched their new operation over the 3 in retaliation to Arriva's Park Barn incursion, even though that could have potentially seen the tender curtailed and them left sole Sunday operator.

While Safeguard have operated a number of routes in the past, including key ones such as Aldershot - Ash - Frimley - Camberley (roughly equivalent of today's Stagecoach 3), in more recent times they have seemed to shy away from getting involved in much at all away from their established 4/5 local circulars. The only tendered things I can think they've been involved in in recent years was the single vehicle free town centre shuttle bus that ceased in 2008, and the two vehicle Merrow Park & Ride that was lost to Stagecoach in 2013. They did run interworked school/college routes 43/45 for a very brief period after Buses Excetera's demise before they went to Stagecoach, but Safeguard have never jumped in when other routes have become "available" through route withdrawal or operator demise, leaving it to others. I guess they are perhaps just comfortable in what they are doing well with. That said, it would be nice to see them add to their portfolio from a passenger's point of view, if they felt they could keep up their standards over a wider scale and the sums added up to expand.
 

Cesarcollie

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In theory there is nothing stopping them, or anyone, registering their own commercial replacements for any of the routes - tendered or otherwise. What it would boil down to though is whether they felt it was commercially viable to do so. Not a lot in Surrey is operated commercially on Sundays, the vast majority being tendered even over in Stagecoach's Blackwater Valley area, so I'd be surprised if suddenly such operations were deemed viable now. Safeguard left Sundays well alone when they first launched their new operation over the 3 in retaliation to Arriva's Park Barn incursion, even though that could have potentially seen the tender curtailed and them left sole Sunday operator.

While Safeguard have operated a number of routes in the past, including key ones such as Aldershot - Ash - Frimley - Camberley (roughly equivalent of today's Stagecoach 3), in more recent times they have seemed to shy away from getting involved in much at all away from their established 4/5 local circulars. The only tendered things I can think they've been involved in in recent years was the single vehicle free town centre shuttle bus that ceased in 2008, and the two vehicle Merrow Park & Ride that was lost to Stagecoach in 2013. They did run interworked school/college routes 43/45 for a very brief period after Buses Excetera's demise before they went to Stagecoach, but Safeguard have never jumped in when other routes have become "available" through route withdrawal or operator demise, leaving it to others. I guess they are perhaps just comfortable in what they are doing well with. That said, it would be nice to see them add to their portfolio from a passenger's point of view, if they felt they could keep up their standards over a wider scale and the sums added up to expand.
It would also boil down to staff availability. Whilst in theory there will be ex Arriva drivers on the market, knowing how many will be available for any one operator, if any, is a total gamble!
 

A0

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arriva has starved Guildford of affordable transport over the last 20 years. Growing up there it always felt the fairs were extortionate and the service was at best shocking.
I hope Safeguard pick up the 18, 36/37 routes- those area’s deserve a local operator.
I remember safeguard were toying with the idea during the Park Barn bus wars of running a Merrow service!

Im sure it’ll come out soon enough who has got picks of the cherry from Arriva

Well the fairs (sic) are set in order to make a return and therefore reflect the cost of running the service - it's basic economics.

Is there any evidence other operators are cheaper ?

And more to the point, if Guildford is such a profitable area to operate buses, why aren't Arriva's competitors tripping over themselves to build a network there?
 

NewcastleOne

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I was in the North-East this week for the Omnibus Society's presidential weekend, and had the chance to sample some of the local operations, either on the bus or from the roadside. I'll be posting the relevant bits in the right threads.

Arriva was an operator that I experienced from the roadside only. I have have a vague idea of sampling their services, but finding an interesting out-and-back route that I could do in limited time was rather beyond my capabilities. It was starkly clear from the very outset that the North East operation receives substantially more care than does the South East: although there were many liveries and variants thereof (new Sapphire, old Sapphire, Max, Hybrid, new corporate, old corporate to name but a few) on various vehicle types, almost every bus was "complete": no panels in a different colour, very few bits of route branding scraped off, few noticeable joins. The number of scraped or dented panels was also minimal and I only saw a single example - that primarily because it was on old sapphire livery so the white scrapes showed up against the light blue background.

The most noticeable thing about the operations in and around Newcastle was the route branding - or dare one say route advertising, given there at best a 50/50 chance (and probably worse) that the bus would be on the route it was branded for. There are simply too many examples to list, but given the high proportion of branding (off the top of my head, 43-45, 52/54, 306, services to Blyth, services to Ashington, services to Alnwick/Morpeth, whatever the Sunderland-Durham service is numbered - 6?), it really should be possible to come up with some sort of system at Jesmond - and whichever other depots were involved - to at least make a modicum of an effort to put the right bus on the right route. All three 685 branded vehicles were parked at the back of Jesmond depot unloved and unmoved the entire weekend. Even leaving the specific route branding aside, there seems to be a multitude of different vehicle types - whether scheduled or not I don't know, but I can't imagine it is particularly easy for any intending passengers on, say, the 43-45 group of services, usually operated with branded double-deckers, to find their service that is now a new corporate-liveried Solo.

It is going to be interesting reading Paul O'Neill's response in BUSES magazine next month to the previous article and associated letters, to ascertain whether he does actually travel beyond the confines of his local company. It really is hard not to see the 'quality' of the operation in this area as being down to the "Head Office Effect."

The scenery around most of Northumbria and County Durham was simply stunning, so hopefully it won't be too many years before I get a chance to be back in the area and try some of the routes currently operated by Arriva for a more "travel-based" experience.

In terms of Arriva, it's an easy thing to do and give them a wholesale kicking. I've experienced a few OpCos in the last year and my unscientific view on those experiences (aside from those I experienced the other day) is:

  • Arriva Merseyside/North West - pretty decent and well presented. A few oddities but overall, it's a good operation. It's received some investment over the years though, in common with the rest of the group, not enough so that in places like St Helens, you're seeing main routes operated by vehicles that are 9-10 years old. That's aside from the phenomenon of services running at 40 min headways...
  • Arriva Cymru - to be fair, it was only the Chester and Wrexham area but again, not a bad operation in similar vein to North West.
  • Arriva Midlands - it was a last chance to travel on the Cannock services. I'd been tipped off on the sale and they had shipped in a load of elderly vehicles ready for the disposal. However, considering they were 15/16 year old Darts and slightly newer Eclipses, they were actually reasonably presented despite all that.
  • Arriva North East - I enjoyed a few trips in Co Durham operated by Darlington depot before heading into Go Ahead territory. The vehicles I saw and travelled on were ok. There was one Max liveried Pulsar that I saw in Gateshead (Stockton depot?) that was really scabby though. Historically, north of the Tyne, vehicles have generally been better presented, and I'd say that Darlington and Stockton are possibly the worst offenders but they're generally ok. ANE does have a real problem with route branding (as I've mentioned before) and you can find vehicles randomly on any route seemingly and this was endemic even before Covid and the operational challenges that it brought. Note: the 685 vehicles are 2007 Omnicities and they can't keep them on the road so Pulsars tend to be preferred on that long route
  • Arriva Southern Counties - this was Maidstone area and it was pretty shoddy. Vehicles running in from Tunbridge Wells were old ex London deckers but reasonably tidy, but Maidstone's fleet of elderly deckers and ageing e200s and other stuff was very careworn.
Moreover, it seems that Arriva are now seen as vulnerable and firms are beginning to nibble away at the margins more actively, than the historic practice of Arriva simply surrendering territory and firms filling the void. Stagecoach has done so in Sittingbourne, as are Go Ahead in South West Durham. The power bases in Merseyside and Yorkshire (not experienced for a couple of years) are certainly outwardly better presented and they have had some investment in recent years though not enough and certainly, it's evident that some areas are looking rather neglected.

One other point from my travels was the 757/758 Green Line services. They received new fleet in 2020 but in terms of the vehicle livery..... looks like dealer white with some half arsed Green Line logo, with the front dash receiving a green wrap in much the same manner as some 1989 purchase where you'd paint the front in your fleet colours whilst the rest of the vehicle retained a previous operators colours.
Apologies for bringing up posts from 2 weeks ago, but it’s the first time I’ve seen them. I just wanted to add to the North East discussion which seems to changing. As mentioned there’s a lot of off route vehicles in the NE. As a regular on the 308 I have never become so familiar with the services in and out of Cramlington and on the X18 I got to understand the route of 202/203. (Note the 4 E400s 7553-7556 which transferred up from Yorkshire still have the 202/203 branding on the inside of the vehicle detailing the Leeds to Huddersfield route). Blyth services X7/8/9/10/11,308 I believe operate in an interesting way as if let’s say a 308 is running late and then an earlier arrival (from any of the services mentioned) or a spare from the depot will take over even before the vehicle has arrived back to maintain the next journey time. I think that at least used to be the case which as a result lots of branded vehicles go off route although there will be the part of allocating to what ever.
The North East in recent weeks has started to de brand MAX and Frequenta vehicles removing those names and services branded and replacing with the new Arriva icon only. Personal examples that I have seen include 1429/1432 which were Frequenta 63 (Redcar) but now base livery with Arriva on the side. (Tbf these have transferred to Blyth)
I will link examples.

Apologies for bringing up posts from 2 weeks ago, but it’s the first time I’ve seen them. I just wanted to add to the North East discussion which seems to changing. As mentioned there’s a lot of off route vehicles in the NE. As a regular on the 308 I have never become so familiar with the services in and out of Cramlington and on the X18 I got to understand the route of 202/203. (Note the 4 E400s 7553-7556 which transferred up from Yorkshire still have the 202/203 branding on the inside of the vehicle detailing the Leeds to Huddersfield route). Blyth services X7/8/9/10/11,308 I believe operate in an interesting way as if let’s say a 308 is running late and then an earlier arrival (from any of the services mentioned) or a spare from the depot will take over even before the vehicle has arrived back to maintain the next journey time. I think that at least used to be the case which as a result lots of branded vehicles go off route although there will be the part of allocating to what ever.
The North East in recent weeks has started to de brand MAX and Frequenta vehicles removing those names and services branded and replacing with the new Arriva icon only. Personal examples that I have seen include 1429/1432 which were Frequenta 63 (Redcar) but now base livery with Arriva on the side. (Tbf these have transferred to Blyth)
I will link examples.
Credit goes to all of the original photographers
1437 (before 63 Frequenta, Redcar based and current)
Credit Arriva North East
1437 Now
Credit Arriva North East

7622 (Previously X10/11 Max, Blyth based, and indeed still Blyth Based for the same Services)
Before

credit North East Malarkey

7622 now

Credit Michael A Parker

all Photos from Flickr and credit for to the original posters for going out and getting them.

It’s is belived that all if not most of Max and Frequenta services will be done in this format. Reason why-unknown but it may be to aligned the vehicles to the Arriva name rather than thinking of Max and Frequenta.

in other News Man eco city Gas buses 4806,4812,4813 have been repainted and given a light interior refurbishment to same standard we see on Merseyside. Enviro 200 1326 has also been repainted and given a light interior refurbishment.
 
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Mwanesh

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Arriva Guildford was isolated. Whoever dismantled Shires made a mess of things. Guildford should have been under London not Southern Counties.
 

cnjb8

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Arriva Guildford was isolated. Whoever dismantled Shires made a mess of things. Guildford should have been under London not Southern Counties.
London solely operates TfL routes though, so placing Guildford in Southern Counties made sense
 

Surreyman

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Arriva Guildford was isolated. Whoever dismantled Shires made a mess of things. Guildford should have been under London not Southern Counties.
You could argue the same for Colchester but as cnjb8 says they are completely different businesses.
 

Flange Squeal

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I guess Guildford hasn't always been quite so isolated, with there having been depots in Horsell until 2001/2 (6.5 miles), Warnham until October 2009 (22 miles), and Cranleigh until September 2012 (8 miles).
 
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