Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[357]

How peculiar, They are on the routes that I sign!

Same for me.

 

[Ken H]

Same for me.

i stand corrected.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

if the failed signal was not a distant signal, ie able to show a yellow aspect, then it would not have AWS. A Red/green only signal is not generally protected with AWS.

This is patently untrue. Not only AWS, I’d also expect the junction signal to have TPWS as it is controlling a converging junction.

 

[lineclear]

if the failed signal was not a distant signal, ie able to show a yellow aspect, then it would not have AWS. A Red/green only signal is not generally protected with AWS.

I think you're confused. This is the case with sequential semaphore stop signals at a signal box, to prevent a driver receiving an AWS bell followed by a signal at danger.

The incident occurred on a Track Circuit Block line with colour light signals.

 

[Ken H]

I remember reading about train crashes of the past when coaches were quite flimsy and would break up in a crash. The fact this crash didnt cause serious injury or death is a tribute to the design of modern rolling stock.

 

[Llama]

There are a few R/G signals I can think of without AWS (even though they are provided with TPWS) but they are all on single lines.

Every single R/G signal I can think of that isn't on a single line has AWS fitted.

 

[USRailFan]

I remember reading about train crashes of the past when coaches were quite flimsy and would break up in a crash. The fact this crash didnt cause serious injury or death is a tribute to the design of modern rolling stock.

I dunno, from a couple of the photos the damage seems bad enough, that one 158 set is likely a goner...

 

[WelshBluebird]

Bit close to home given the Cardiff - Portsmouth service is my local one that I use multiple times a week (though granted I've not been as far east as Salisbury on there since before covid). Seems incredibly lucky that it wasn't a lot worse - looking at the photos it seems that because of the different directions both trains came into the junction from the blow was more of a "glancing" one rather than a direct impact right into the full rear of the first train (appreciate that it wouldn't have felt "glancing" for anyone involved though!)

I remember reading about train crashes of the past when coaches were quite flimsy and would break up in a crash. The fact this crash didnt cause serious injury or death is a tribute to the design of modern rolling stock.

Of course "modern" here being 30 odd years old now!

 

[Efini92]

It would also have tpws as it’s a junction signal. However if the power had been knocked out it’s possible the tpws could’ve been inoperative.

 

[dosxuk]

I dunno, from a couple of the photos the damage seems bad enough, that one 158 set is likely a goner...

Point still stands - even if vehicles end up being scrapped, they've gotten into that state while successfully protecting the people inside.

 

[BayPaul]

At the risk of attracting heavy criticism I found the Mail coverage the best so far.
Lots of informative photos (some of which have since been lifted by the BBC). Some obviously wrong information. “Locomotive” instead of unit, but that probably came from emergency services press office.

I agree - I am definitely amongst the Daily Mail haters, but in this case, they have put together a good article, with pictures and maps that make it much clearer to me what happened (in terms of what train went where, obviously not why). The text coverage also seemed mainly factual, with limited speculation, and all of that apparently from 'sources'. Like everyone else, I am amazed and thankful that the number of injuries was so small in a collision that clearly had an awful lot of energy behind it.

 

[Efini92]

Point still stands - even if vehicles end up being scrapped, they've gotten into that state while successfully protecting the people inside.

I’m no expert but I’d reckon they’ll repair that.

 

[Ken H]

Bit close to home given the Cardiff - Portsmouth service is my local one that I use multiple times a week (though granted I've not been as far east as Salisbury on there since before covid). Seems incredibly lucky that it wasn't a lot worse - looking at the photos it seems that because of the different directions both trains came into the junction from the blow was more of a "glancing" one rather than a direct impact right into the full rear of the first train (appreciate that it wouldn't have felt "glancing for anyone involved though!)

Of course "modern" here being 30 odd years old now!

I think the Mk3 was the first really strong vehicle. I am unsure about the Mk 2. Mk 3 introduced 1975. 46 yrs ago. I remember my first Mk3 ride. I would have been 19.

 

[507 001]

I’m no expert but I’d reckon they’ll repair that.

I doubt it, having seen some closer photos of the 159, the damage to the driver’s side is extensive.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Politics For All has leaked the incident report on Twitter

Doesn't look to be accurate - it is the SWR train that is on its side in the photos

 

[bnm]

The accident was east of Salisbury, so there is no reason trains can't still run to Westbury and Yeovil. If buses are needed, it willbe towards Andover/Basingstoke and Romsey/Southampton

I'm told by an SWR Guard that nothing has been able to leave Salisbury depot this morning. Hence why there's only a shuttle between Gillingham and Exeter using units that outstation at Yeovil and Exeter overnight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it, having seen some closer photos of the 159, the damage to the driver’s side is extensive.

Add to that that 158s are "on the way out" to some extent due to their age and old, polluting engines, and that TfW's entire fleet will become available fairly soon, and that SWR are going to be using fewer due to abandonment of the Bristol services, I suspect the one with the worse damage, at least, will be scrapped, with other vehicles from the set potentially becoming spares donors. Might even be easier to cut up on site if it's fairly wedged.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Add to that that 158s are "on the way out" to some extent due to their age and old, polluting engines, and that TfW's entire fleet will become available fairly soon, and that SWR are going to be using fewer due to abandonment of the Bristol services, I suspect the one with the worse damage, at least, will be scrapped, with other vehicles from the set potentially becoming spares donors. Might even be easier to cut up on site if it's fairly wedged.

Other than accident damage, I’ll be surprised to see a 158 vehicle scrapped in the next 10-15 years. Plenty of older stock to get rid of first, they’re popular, reliable and don’t suffer from corrosion. Equally the TfW sets are non-standard (Perkins engines, ETCS fitted so very non-standard cab etc) so it will be interesting to see where they go.

 

[43096]

Add to that that 158s are "on the way out" to some extent due to their age and old, polluting engines, and that TfW's entire fleet will become available fairly soon, and that SWR are going to be using fewer due to abandonment of the Bristol services, I suspect the one with the worse damage, at least, will be scrapped, with other vehicles from the set potentially becoming spares donors. Might even be easier to cut up on site if it's fairly wedged.

I’d say at least one car of each unit has questionable futures. Assuming the other three are fixable then the centre car into one of SWR’s 158s and the rear 159 car to GWR to match with the surviving GWR 158 car would seem an option to maintain fleets as far as possible. Once EMR get their 170s sorted then 158889 could go to SWR if they need an extra set.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Apart from the relative lack of injuries, the other cause for thankfulness (reading RTT so public info) is that an eastbound GW passed the junction just before the SW.

Times at Tunnel junction forthe two GWR trains according to Real Time trains were:
1F27 1841.75
1F30 1842.75,
so they would have passed each other on the curve between Tunnel Junction and Laverstock South.
The last recorded time for 1L53 is at Laverstock North, at 1842.5, a few seconds before 1F30 passed Tunnel Junction and entered the tunnel itself.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

True, but infrastructure is supposed to be designed to be fool proof as it is accepted that humans make errors. This is why AWS/TPWS was brought about, for example.

I imagine that if a blank signal is found to be the cause of this, most members of the public would expect RAIB to change a regulation to minimise the risk of a blank signal causing an accident again in the future, especially given most members of the public would likely sympathise with the driver for not noticing a blank signal at night/within a tunnel.

I’m no engineer but solutions I can think of off the top of my head:
• Put big, reflective outlines around signals
• Have a battery back up on signals which powers a red light if it detects that the electricity is cut (similar to how most modern digital alarm clocks come with battery back up power which only kicks in in the event of a power cut).

A couple of questions re LED signals
i've noticed that alongside the main aspect they have a little repeater, I've assumed that this was a battery back up in case of power failure. Secondly if the signal goes blank doesn't the TPWS still work? Surely that's the idea of it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I notice that west of Salisbury, SWR are only running between Gillingham and Exeter St David’s. Is there any reason for this considering that the depot is on this side of the blockage?

Also I notice there are no trains through Andover or Chandler’s Ford which I am guessing is due to a shortage of 159s available on the ‘wrong’ side? Saying that though, the line to Westbury is still open so could they not divert ECS via Newbury and Reading?

RAIB will have the panel and the interlocking quarantined for investigations but they are well aware of the need to minimise operational inconvenience so im sure they will be focussing efforts to getting this activity completed asap and seeing if they can demark the relay room such that the west end of Salisbury can be released back to operations.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Is the junction layout a diamond or a pair of single lead turnouts and up-down facing crossover? I wonder if the southbound GWR passing the junction has any bearing on the route the SWR service has taken to come into collision with the preceding GWR.

The timings shown on RTT indicate the two GWR trains passed south/east of Tunnel junction.

 

[dosxuk]

Add to that that 158s are "on the way out" to some extent due to their age and old, polluting engines, and that TfW's entire fleet will become available fairly soon, and that SWR are going to be using fewer due to abandonment of the Bristol services, I suspect the one with the worse damage, at least, will be scrapped, with other vehicles from the set potentially becoming spares donors. Might even be easier to cut up on site if it's fairly wedged.

I would expect the RAIB to want to recover the most damaged vehicles, even if destined for scrap, to analyse how they behaved in the incident.

158's are still popular trains in this part of the world. I'd be surprised if any becoming available weren't quickly snapped up, especially by EMR after their 170 plans have fallen apart (if they were ever realistic in the first place). As others have said, there's plenty of other older stock ahead of the 158's in the queue to the tin can factory.

 

[Dougal2345]

Other than accident damage, I’ll be surprised to see a 158 vehicle scrapped in the next 10-15 years. Plenty of older stock to get rid of first, they’re popular, reliable and don’t suffer from corrosion.

I can't say I'm a fan of them, far too noisy inside, and the legroom in the GW versions is non-existent. The only thing I like less are Turbos, that are even noisier. But I think there are threads elsewhere detailing the general amazement that they're still considered an acceptable offering for passengers in 2021.

Has there been any news of that obstruction that caused the accident? I believe there was speculation that it might be a stone from the tunnel roof, or something thrown onto the track from a nearby allotment. I guess another possibility is some equipment falling off a previous train?

 

[karlbbb]

Very glad to see there have been "only" injuries in this collision. I must say, that must have been an awful sight for the second train's driver to come around and see the rear of that train, one would imagine he thought the worst. Is there a low speed limit over that junction, out of curiosity?

 

[HowardGWR]

Try booking a ticket from Crewkerne to Southampton on Mixing Deck - you will get some interesting itinaries suggested! (reference my earlier posting). In fairness the line between Bournemouth and Southampton is also unavailable at present due to maintenance for five days.

 

[Brush 4]

I was going to ask a question about detonators, and found this link. If the 7 minute gap is true, shouldn't these have been used? (unless the GWR driver and guard were both too injured to do anything)

What is the purpose of railway detonator equipment?

 

[Ken H]

I would expect the RAIB to want to recover the most damaged vehicles, even if destined for scrap, to analyse how they behaved in the incident.

158's are still popular trains in this part of the world. I'd be surprised if any becoming available weren't quickly snapped up, especially by EMR after their 170 plans have fallen apart (if they were ever realistic in the first place). As others have said, there's plenty of other older stock ahead of the 158's in the queue to the tin can factory.

are 158 body repairs difficult? something about a pre-stressed skin or something.

 

[Chonner]

SWR have managed to put in place a Basingstoke to Andover shuttle. Indeed I am on the the first one ex Basingstoke at 10:07, 2Z21. Informed there will be Rail Replacement buses onwards from Andover.