Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Bletchleyite]

are 158 body repairs difficult? something about a pre-stressed skin or something.

They are aluminium unlike other 15x.

 

[HowardGWR]

Very glad to see there have been "only" injuries in this collision. I must say, that must have been an awful sight for the second train's driver to come around and see the rear of that train, one would imagine he thought the worst. Is there a low speed limit over that junction, out of curiosity?

'Come around'? he would have been proceeding in a straight line.

 

[AndyPJG]

Is there a low speed limit over that junction, out of curiosity?

Post #56

 

[Surreytraveller]

One wonders if the driver of the derailed train put out a Railway Emergency Call?

 

[Gloster]

SWR are saying that the line should reopen on Friday. That seems awfully quick if a fall from the tunnel involved.

In case their is any doubt, the photo (similar to the view that I saw many times from the signal box window) is of the junction which is immediately at the London end of the tunnel.

 

[HowardGWR]

SWR have managed to put in place a Basingstoke to Andover shuttle. Indeed I am on the the first one ex Basingstoke at 10:07, 2Z21. Informed there will be Rail Replacement buses onwards from Andover.

There is also an Exeter to Gillingham shuttle in operation.

 

[BayPaul]

'Come around'? he would have been proceeding in a straight line.

Looking on Google Earth It's a curve from both the Andover and Romsey directions, though less so from Andover

 

[bnm]

Try booking a ticket from Crewkerne to Southampton on Mixing Deck - you will get some interesting itinaries suggested! (reference my earlier posting). In fairness the line between Bournemouth and Southampton is also unavailable at present due to maintenance for five days.

I'm on my way from Templecombe to Cowes East on the Isle of Wight. Templecombe-Exeter-Reading-Basingstoke-Southampton.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It is 20mph from the Romsey direction and 50mph from Andover.

 

[sw1ller]

There are a few R/G signals I can think of without AWS (even though they are provided with TPWS) but they are all on single lines.

Every single R/G signal I can think of that isn't on a single line has AWS fitted.

There’s one on the down at Beeston between Crewe and Chester. It’s actually classed as a semaphore that’s been upgraded to a R/G section signal.

 

[HowardGWR]

Looking on Google Earth It's a curve from both the Andover and Romsey directions, though less so from Andover

I see your point. I thought you were mistaken as to which line he was approaching Salisbury from.

 

[D6130]

Is there a low speed limit over that junction, out of curiosity?

20 from the Romsey line and 50 from Andover. (See Sectional Appendix extract upthread).

 

[swt_passenger]

I can't remember if either of them have fuelling facilities?

Fratton does. It deals with GWR in normal circs anyway.

 

[karlbbb]

'Come around'? he would have been proceeding in a straight line.

Sorry, just a layman with a moderate interest in the railways. Looking at the diagram in #56 and the latest picture from the BBC article I'd mistakenly believed the second train was the one approaching via the junction rather than proceeding straight. I suppose that makes it an even scarier sight for any driver to see the rear of a stationary train whilst travelling at up to the 50mph line speed there, no?

 

[ic31420]

I was going to ask a question about detonators, and found this link. If the 7 minute gap is true, shoudn't these have been used? (unless the GWR driver and guard were both too injured to do anything)

What is the purpose of railway detonator equipment? | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

7mins isn't an awfully long amount of time in an emergency situation. Even the most put together staff member will be in shock and you just don't think straight. Added to that there will likely be passengers asking all sorts of SFQ And doing their own thing.

7 mins soon goes. Especially when you have some distance to cover for dets to be effective.

 

[Helvellyn]

Worst thing about the Mail article is them now giving air to the "terrified" passengers whose first thought was somehow to get their phones out and start filming rather than help others.

Same type of person who in a plane evacuation would be filming or grabbing their bags from the overhead lockers.

 

[Gloster]

Tunnel Junction is approached from the Andover direction on a curve, but there is the London Road bridge in the way. From the box in the vee we couldn’t see far beyond the bridge, although we were only a little above driver’s eye-level.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

I was going to ask a question about detonators, and found this link. If the 7 minute gap is true, shoudn't these have been used? (unless the GWR driver and guard were both too injured to do anything)

What is the purpose of railway detonator equipment? | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

A good question.

My observations are:
1 The 7 minute gap may not be accurate, this was from the Daily Mail who would want be on the sensationalist side and maybe there just wasn't enough time to protect with dets.

2 The driver assumed it was protected as he/she had contacted the signaller/ pressed the panic button to stop all trains in the area.

3 I think in these circumstances if dets were required then the driver would go forward and protect the opposite line so it would be up to the train manager/guard to go back and protect the rear and he/she would obviously be very shocked or may have been checking tickets at the time and their first thought would be for the passengers. Also what comms are there between driver and guard apart from the intercom to the rear cab?

4 There was a converging junction so which line would they protect first?

A horrendous situation for any train crew to be in and we can say all we like that is what they are trained for but it's a whole different scenario when one minute you're cruising along in a nice warm train then suddenly you're off the road in a tunnel, ballast flying everywhere and got injured passengers screaming etc.

One further thought, do they use track circuit operating clips still? Sometimes a better bet than dets, although maybe not in this case if the protecting signals had gone dark.

 

[alexl92]

I can't say I'm a fan of them, far too noisy inside, and the legroom in the GW versions is non-existent. The only thing I like less are Turbos, that are even noisier. But I think there are threads elsewhere detailing the general amazement that they're still considered an acceptable offering for passengers in 2021.

Has there been any news of that obstruction that caused the accident? I believe there was speculation that it might be a stone from the tunnel roof, or something thrown onto the track from a nearby allotment. I guess another possibility is some equipment falling off a previous train?

I have to say, I've been pondering how something could have de-railed only the last coach in a set (as multiple sources are suggesting has happened). Don't want to trigger unhelpful speculation though.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Whilst some criticism of passengers filming may be valid, don’t discount the potential value of such footage in helping the investigation establish the facts.

 

[Iskra]

Whilst some criticism of passengers filming may be valid, don’t discount the potential value of such footage in helping the investigation establish the facts.

It can also be useful for emergency call operators to assess the extent of the incident and injuries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to say, I've been pondering how something could have de-railed only the last coach in a set (as multiple sources are suggesting has happened). Don't want to trigger unhelpful speculation though.

Infrastructure damage of some sort? Something falling off the vehicle in front?

 

[2HAP]

Re: Detonators

Apart from only having 7 mins to cover a decent distance on foot, on rough terrain, this was made twice as difficult because there were two routes to protect in the rear of the train. Put yourself in the guard's position. Assuming not injured and fit enough to do so, which direction to go first?

 

[43096]

A good question.

My observations are:
1 The 7 minute gap may not be accurate, this was from the Daily Mail who would want be on the sensationalist side and maybe there just wasn't enough time to protect with dets.

2 The driver assumed it was protected as he/she had contacted the signaller/ pressed the panic button to stop all trains in the area.

3 I think in these circumstances if dets were required then the driver would go forward and protect the opposite line so it would be up to the train manager/guard to go back and protect the rear and he/she would obviously be very shocked or may have been checking tickets at the time and their first thought would be for the passengers. Also what comms are there between driver and guard apart from the intercom to the rear cab?

4 There was a converging junction so which line would they protect first?

A horrendous situation for any train crew to be in and we can say all we like that is what they are trained for but it's a whole different scenario when one minute you're cruising along in a nice warm train then suddenly you're off the road in a tunnel, ballast flying everywhere and got injured passengers screaming etc.

One further thought, do they use track circuit operating clips still? Sometimes a better bet than dets, although maybe not in this case if the protecting signals had gone dark.

Regardless of that, if the GWR service had the route through the junction, there is a fundamental question as to why 1L53 has passed signal SY31, which is the signal protecting the junction from the Andover direction. The driver of 1L53 should have seen the signal before SY31 at single yellow and be braking to stop at SY31.

 

[molecrochip]

7mins isn't an awfully long amount of time in an emergency situation. Even the most put together staff member will be in shock and you just don't think straight. Added to that there will likely be passengers asking all sorts of SFQ And doing their own thing.

7 mins soon goes. Especially when you have some distance to cover for dets to be effective.

But 7 minutes isn't accurate.

Network Rail Wessex confirm on their twitter feed that the incident was 1845. Originally this was quoted as 1846.

That's just two and a quarter minutes after [the front] of the GWR train passed through the Tunnel Junction timing point.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

I have to say, I've been pondering how something could have de-railed only the last coach in a set (as multiple sources are suggesting has happened). Don't want to trigger unhelpful speculation though.

If that's true then I'm wondering how soon the train stopped after it happened, maybe the train pipe rupturing (or some modern equivalent thereof) or the guard using the emergency brake (is that still possible? I'm out of touch with modern stock). We've seen this before in crashes where the rear vehicle(s) only becomes derailed and is caused by the points failing as the train passes over. Maybe the tunnel is just an unlucky coincidence, although it could have been a good thing when you think what happened at Carmont.

 

[Gloster]

Photos on the BBC website show that the Bristol seems to be stopped with the last vehicle just outside the tunnel and so probably not clear of the points (they were very close to the mouth). I am thinking there may have been two elements of luck that prevented the London going straight into the back of the Bristol.

Ignore the BBC’s map: they have the Bristol going the wrong way.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

But 7 minutes isn't accurate.

Network Rail Wessex confirm on their twitter feed that the incident was 1845. Originally this was quoted as 1846.

That's just two and a quarter minutes after [the front] of the GWR train passed through the Tunnel Junction timing point.

Yes, I assumed that the Daily Fail article was making it look far worse than it was.
In those circumstances 135 seconds is very little time for anyone to do anything meaningful.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m led to believe 7 159 units were placed into Clapham yard, with 2 at Waterloo. Also 2x158s in the Southampton area.

I would imagine they’ll try and get them to Fratton for fuel although traction knowledge might be an issue.

believe the decision for Gillingham is due to flooding as it would appear Wilton Jn - Salisbury station is now open. Also only 2 units west side of Salisbury. Hopefully Exeter have started fuelling now!

I’m surprised SWR aren’t running to Westbury via Yeovil pen Mill rather than Gillingham

 

[Llama]

There’s one on the down at Beeston between Crewe and Chester. It’s actually classed as a semaphore that’s been upgraded to a R/G section signal.

Ignoring absolute block R/Gs, I should have added.