Most dubious railway closure cases

[Western 52]

Over the years, we’ve seen many rail closure cases which seem quite dubious, maybe even where the closure case is founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence. By way of example, take the 1982 closure of the March to Spalding line, where the timetable seemed to be designed to positively discourage use. Just three trains a day, and with “connections” timed to miss! I think there was a train from Cambridge which arrived at Spalding around 1219, with the northward service to Lincoln having left a minute earlier.

There have been many examples of manufactured closure cases – what are the worst examples we can think of?

 

[Mitchei]

Glasgow to Kilmacolm in 1983. The very fact they tried to reverse it only a few short years later says it all. By that time some of the land had been sold and sadly the line only re-opened as far as Paisley Canal.

 

[yorksrob]

The case for Uckfield - Lewes was manufactured to facilitate the construction of a road by-pass. It even included a dodgy "irreparable" viaduct claim into the bargain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the touristy nature of it, Bangor-Caernarfon was arguably poor - but again possibly to build a road!

 

[Llandudno]

Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn.

Inconveniently timed, infrequent trains, some even requiring a change of train en-route with a long wait for the ‘connection’

Fortunately, the line recently reopened with an hourly service, however, TfW are currently only operating one train every 2 hours with the last trains at night missing. Hope this isn’t a precursor to chasing all the passengers away so they can close it again! Only kidding, as TfW are promising hourly Liverpool-Llandudno trains in 2023!

 

[tbtc]

Interesting idea for a thread

There's generally a bit of conspiracy theorist stuff when it comes to these things (were services deliberately timetabled to be useless, or were passenger numbers so poor that there was no financial imperative to run as many services as possible with the stock? some lines were pretty untouched from the nineteenth century, so required a lot of infrastructure work to keep them going which may have tipped the balance in some cases), but some interesting examples nonetheless

Bangor-Caernarfon is certainly a good shout, there was a pretty good Llandudno - Bangor-Caernarfon bus service last time I went that way, which generally suggests a market where heavy rail could/should be viable

(Hull) Beverley - York is one that gets brought up quite often on "Beeching" threads - whilst the existing Hull - York service (via Selby) has never been particularly busy/frequent (and therefore, spreading the Hull - York passengers between two routes may just have resulted in two very lightly used services rathe than one slightly quiet service), I can see why it's a grey area though

Some closures seem "poor" by today's standards but I don't know what demand was like fifty plus years ago - e.g. the frequent bus service means that Tavistock to Plymouth seems worth investigating but commuting has changed over the past couple of generations and I don't know that there was the same market to sustain a train service back then, so I can't criticise the closure

I do wonder sometimes whether Beeching was right about the three lines from Manchester through the Peak District - he suggested closing the Hope Valley and keeping both the Woodhead and Bakewell routes open - BR took the opposite decision - there were merits both ways (but, now that the Woodhead and Bakewell routes are closed, I can't see them coming back) - tricky one

 

[AzureOtsu]

Steyning line from Shoreham by sea to Horsham, even as it was going through the closure process people were sceptical about it actually closing and didn't believe it would actually happen.

 

[Ianno87]

Oxford-Cambridge. Closing it in the same year Milton Keynes gained New Town status.

 

[Titfield]

Oxford-Cambridge. Closing it in the same year Milton Keynes gained New Town status.

Though of course New Towns were designed around the car (user).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though of course New Towns were designed around the car (user).

Not only that, but also they were designed for everyone to live/work within the town, not commute out or in.

 

[30mog]

Personally, I think some re-openings have a dubious side.

Corby branch on MML? Station only re-opened a few years ago and ELECTRIFIED now. Wires north to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby & Sheffield CANCELLED. OK, HS2 might well have a compensation factor for the latter. But surely the former is nothing to do with Corby being a marginal parliamentary seat? A bit like a cluster of constituencies north west of Leeds with 333’s while for most of Northern Rail Pacers are only just history.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I think some re-openings have a dubious side.

Corby branch on MML? Station only re-opened a few years ago and ELECTRIFIED now. Wires north to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby & Sheffield CANCELLED.

Like most places in the South East and South Midlands, the key demand is London, so an electrified EMU railway there made a lot of sense.

 

[RT4038]

Over the years, we’ve seen many rail closure cases which seem quite dubious, maybe even where the closure case is founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence. By way of example, take the 1982 closure of the March to Spalding line, where the timetable seemed to be designed to positively discourage use. Just three trains a day, and with “connections” timed to miss! I think there was a train from Cambridge which arrived at Spalding around 1219, with the northward service to Lincoln having left a minute earlier.

There have been many examples of manufactured closure cases – what are the worst examples we can think of?

I don't think this is quite right - there had never been a frequent passenger train service between March and Spalding - there is simply no demand between these two points in themselves and it is very rural territory. The timetable was not designed to discourage use, it reflected the ongoing commercial reality. The trains were pretty empty in general - I know, I rode them!

 

[Spartacus]

I've been told a few times that Batley - Wakefield via Dewsbury & Ossett was a dubious one, the line being at least as well patronised as the one towards Huddersfield, at least as far as local traffic, right up to the end, but that a combination of duplication Batley - Dewsbury and the number of tunnels, viaducts and bridges over a short distance is what killed it, rather than lack of passengers, plus a desire to concentrate services on Leeds.

 

[RT4038]

Oxford-Cambridge. Closing it in the same year Milton Keynes gained New Town status.

But was this closure 'founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence', as per the OP? I don't think so. Was the line losing money at the time - undoubtedly.

 

[mike57]

I do wonder sometimes whether Beeching was right about the three lines from Manchester through the Peak District - he suggested closing the Hope Valley and keeping both the Woodhead and Bakewell routes open - BR took the opposite decision - there were merits both ways

Do we know why BR kept Hope Valley and abandonded Woodhead? Woodhead had been recently modernised, and was electrified and seems the obvious choice to keep. The only problem I could see would be the continuation of Sheffield Victoria, with access to the 'main' Midland station being by means of a reversal, but I suppose a chord could have been built to avoid it and Victoria could still have been closed.

 

[Spartacus]

Do we know why BR kept Hope Valley and abandonded Woodhead? Woodhead had been recently modernised, and was electrified and seems the obvious choice to keep. The only problem I could see would be the continuation of Sheffield Victoria, with access to the 'main' Midland station being by means of a reversal, but I suppose a chord could have been built to avoid it and Victoria could still have been closed.

The Hope Valley generated freight traffic and does to this day, while the Woodhead was merely a through route, much of which's traffic was already dying.

 

[RT4038]

Steyning line from Shoreham by sea to Horsham, even as it was going through the closure process people were sceptical about it actually closing and didn't believe it would actually happen.

But because 'people' (whoever they may be) were sceptical, does that make it dubious 'founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence' ? was the line losing money - undoubtedly. Could the financial position have been improved with capital expenditure? Possibly. Would the line have been a priority for the scarce capital investment money available - No, this was by and large prioritised on Inter City route modernisation. [Bournemouth electrification or retain Horsham-Shoreham .... Hmmm]

 

[Eyersey468]

But because 'people' (whoever they may be) were sceptical, does that make it dubious 'founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence' ? was the line losing money - undoubtedly. Could the financial position have been improved with capital expenditure? Possibly. Would the line have been a priority for the scarce capital investment money available - No, this was by and large prioritised on Inter City route modernisation. [Bournemouth electrification or retain Horsham-Shoreham .... Hmmm]

How could the financial position have been improved by capital expenditure?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Hope Valley generated freight traffic and does to this day, while the Woodhead was merely a through route, much of which's traffic was already dying.

I'm also fairly sure that the Hope Valley was the best one in terms of generating leisure journeys, for which it is very popular. Imagine how much less road traffic there would be in the Lakes if there was a railway through the middle of it, or if the Conwy Valley went past Snowdon?

The area around Woodhead is just bleak. Some walkers like that, but others like a decent pub after their walk etc.

 

[RT4038]

How could the financial position have been improved by capital expenditure?

Cheaper to run, presumably? Doubt it would have done so in relation to the overall financial position [taking the of cost of capital into account] though, so not a good investment, but possibly a social one?

 

[stuu]

Personally, I think some re-openings have a dubious side.

Corby branch on MML? Station only re-opened a few years ago and ELECTRIFIED now. Wires north to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby & Sheffield CANCELLED. OK, HS2 might well have a compensation factor for the latter. But surely the former is nothing to do with Corby being a marginal parliamentary seat? A bit like a cluster of constituencies north west of Leeds with 333’s while for most of Northern Rail Pacers are only just history.

Corby became the "logical" terminus for electrification once it was, foolishly, decided to cancel the rest of the electrification. Otherwise there would have been no services using the already installed wires north of Bedford, prior to the introduction of bimodes. It makes sense in those terms

 

[Peter Mugridge]

BR's case to close the Settle - Carlisle was rather dodgy; it was even famously undermined by the manager they sent in to manage the closure...

 

[randyrippley]

Do we know why BR kept Hope Valley and abandonded Woodhead? Woodhead had been recently modernised, and was electrified and seems the obvious choice to keep. The only problem I could see would be the continuation of Sheffield Victoria, with access to the 'main' Midland station being by means of a reversal, but I suppose a chord could have been built to avoid it and Victoria could still have been closed.

The Woodhead locos were said to be getting harder to maintain due to lack of spares.
One serious example that was mentioned was the apparent impossibility of finding copper wire of the correct imperial gauge for rewinding traction motors. Only metric gauge was available and was said not to be suitable.

 

[mike57]

The area around Woodhead is just bleak.

Have to agree. Rode the cycle route up to Woodhead, over the top, and carrying on from Dunford Bridge as part of a Warrington - York in a day about 8 years ago. A choice of getting wiped out on the A628 or an unsuitable (for bikes) track in driving rain, one of those 'never again' moments.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Woodhead locos were said to be getting harder to maintain due to lack of spares.
One serious example that was mentioned was the apparent impossibility of finding copper wire of the correct imperial gauge for rewinding traction motors. Only metric gauge was available and was said not to be suitable.

The power supply system was also "getting on a bit" , - but the fact that virtually every coal train had to be re-engined on route made the operational costs in a declining business pretty unsustainable. This debate though will never die.

Bit like the debate on modernisation era marshalling yards , they could really have done with an electrified Woodhead in WW2 !

 

[Bletchleyite]

The power supply system was also "getting on a bit" , - but the fact that virtually every coal train had to be re-engined on route made the operational costs in a declining business pretty unsustainable. This debate though will never die.

Bit like the debate on modernisation era marshalling yards , they could really have done with an electrified Woodhead in WW2 !

To be fair they did go on to convert Hadfield/Glossop to 25kV without much difficulty, the heavier overhead kit being fine for lighter AC wires. So it's not far-fetched that that could have been done to the whole thing.

 

[A0]

Corby became the "logical" terminus for electrification once it was, foolishly, decided to cancel the rest of the electrification. Otherwise there would have been no services using the already installed wires north of Bedford, prior to the introduction of bimodes. It makes sense in those terms

More to it than that - Corby is a logical 'out suburban' railhead - it's a similar distance to Peterborough from which an electrified commuter service also runs. It needed to become a 'dedicated' service for resilience, otherwise it would have involved interworking with either Nottingham or Sheffield services, so a problem much further up the MML would have caused problems, whereas by being a dedicated service that improved the resilience.

Corby's re-opening stood on its own two feet by virtue of the size of the town and its need for transport links. Add in a dedicated bus link had been in place for some years from Corby to Kettering Railway station.

 

[yorksrob]

But because 'people' (whoever they may be) were sceptical, does that make it dubious 'founded on insecure, made up or even “engineered” evidence' ? was the line losing money - undoubtedly. Could the financial position have been improved with capital expenditure? Possibly. Would the line have been a priority for the scarce capital investment money available - No, this was by and large prioritised on Inter City route modernisation. [Bournemouth electrification or retain Horsham-Shoreham .... Hmmm]

From what I've read, the route was well enough patronised - as evidenced by the passenger surveys undertaken by the local users group. Once the intention to close was known, passengers drifted away.

It has at the time relatively new DEMU's on weekends at least, so electrification wouldn't have been vital (although has it happened at some stage, you could guarantee that the line would still be open).

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn.

Inconveniently timed, infrequent trains, some even requiring a change of train en-route with a long wait for the ‘connection’

Fortunately, the line recently reopened with an hourly service, however, TfW are currently only operating one train every 2 hours with the last trains at night missing. Hope this isn’t a precursor to chasing all the passengers away so they can close it again! Only kidding, as TfW are promising hourly Liverpool-Llandudno trains in 2023!

It was a really useful service until the Covid timetable reduced the frequency.