Northern Dec 2022 Manchester area Timetable Consultation

[Confused52]

Under the original Option B (or C) proposals, I believe that Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook would all have got 1tph, Widnes would have retained 3tph, while Halewood and Hunt's Cross would have had 2tph. But the Oxford Road stopper (1tph) would have terminated at Warrington Central instead of running through to Lime Street, with 2tph stoppers from Lime Street also terminating at Warrington Central.

The change in Option B+ is because of the consultation responses, supported by TfN, that demanded retention of cross-Warrington services, especially direct trains from Warrington West to Padgate, Birchwood and Manchester. The through stopper has to skip-stop to stay ahead of the following semi-fast.

The consequent poor service at the minor stations is an unintended consequence of the assumptions in the business case for the construction of Warrington West, which raised unrealistic expectations about the service provision that would be possible at the new station.

Indeed the folk who contributed through their house purchases for the construction of Warrington West will want their money back. The proposed service is an insult.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't be too sure on that one. Though yes, in retrospect, 1tph is a pathetic showing for a ~£100m investment.

Shows how much of a pointless white elephant it was without the other bits being done first.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2021 ==

I was in a 6-car 195 from Manc to Barrow last month. On the approach to Wigan we were told that the rear 3 coaches would be detached there and so everyone would have to move to the front. (We did leave Wigan late but caught the time up fairly easily.) It was therefore surprising on arrival in Barrow when both units were still coupled together. There wasn't any obvious reason why they needed all 6 coaches south of Wigan so I'm assuming they just forgot at the airport. It's also odd they didn't change at Preston as the train was scheduled to stop for longer.

6 coaches will fit into the platform at Barrow but not at many (any?) of the other Furness Line stations. There was even one station (Dalton I think) where only one passenger door was opened.

May well have been a positioning move to get the second unit back to Barrow after a cancellation. As for saying "detached", people might argue a bit less!

 

[Starmill]

Shows how much of a pointless white elephant it was without the other bits being done first.

It's a delicious irony that people call HS2 a white elephant, when nonsense like this is the kind of alternative that the same government plans. Indeed I think that if more people properly understood the scale of the waste in regional rail provision we'd barely have a train service left in this country.

Opening new stations at Reston and East Linton or increasing the frequency of trains between Girvan and Stranraer in 2015 are in the same situation.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the 6-car 331s on the Blackpool route have to use SDO at some stations due to short platforms. That rules out older units (including Northern's 323s) that are not equipped with SDO.

That is a pain. We need cheap modular platform extensions !

 

[skyhigh]

The Leeds - Chester has calls at Low Moor added.

The Leeds-Chester already stops at Low Moor (I think it was the Dec 2019 timetable that changed).

 

[TC7]

The Leeds-Chester already stops at Low Moor (I think it was the Dec 2019 timetable that changed).

I see that Eccles loses its peak call on the Leeds - Chester, although that is replaced by the new peak Victoria - Wigan

 

[Scotrail314209]

Definitely annoying to hear about the Blackpool to Manchester services being shortened, which is quite a key route in both directions. 4 car 319s were regularly full and standing even with 3+2 seating. Do the 4 car 331s have less seats than the 319s?

 

[HST43257]

I’m confused about the 331 situation.

1) What 331s is West Yorkshire getting?
2) What’s happening to the 331s and 333s in West Yorks as it stands?

 

[Halish Railway]

Think it's 20 or 21 3 cars heading east, so that will leave 10 or 11 in the west. Thats a maximum of 5 six car diagrams (more realistically I think there would be 4) certainly not enough to cover all the Manchester to Blackpool's as at present. 323s (single units) likely to be more common on Wigan to Liverpool stoppers from Dec 22.

I’m confused about the 331 situation.

1) What 331s is West Yorkshire getting?
2) What’s happening to the 331s and 333s in West Yorks as it stands?

I seem to remember 16 being the number of 331/0s transferring east, although that could have changed by now. I don’t see why the Yorkshire needs 20 331/0s, equalling 9 diagrams with two units resting.

The 331/1s will transfer west.

I get the impression that reverting to 319s is a temporary measure that should hopefully last a few months before Northern receive more 323s.

 

[jonnyfan]

There have been announcements of platform extensions in a few locations around the North West. Those associated with the Wigan to Bolton electrification. Plus some stations around Cumbria such as Oxenholme, Staveley and Dalton. So there could be further changes with train formation lengths etc coming. I don't know if the Cumbrian ones will be associated with this new timetable but there could be a tie-in there. And more extensions could be announced.

 

[yorksrob]

There have been announcements of platform extensions in a few locations around the North West. Those associated with the Wigan to Bolton electrification. Plus some stations around Cumbria such as Oxenholme, Staveley and Dalton. So there could be further changes with train formation lengths etc coming. I don't know if the Cumbrian ones will be associated with this new timetable but there could be a tie-in there. And more extensions could be announced.

That's certainly good news.

 

[scrapy]

There have been announcements of platform extensions in a few locations around the North West. Those associated with the Wigan to Bolton electrification. Plus some stations around Cumbria such as Oxenholme, Staveley and Dalton. So there could be further changes with train formation lengths etc coming. I don't know if the Cumbrian ones will be associated with this new timetable but there could be a tie-in there. And more extensions could be announced.

Leyland should also be extended to 6 car in time for December 2022. I maybe wrong but I heard Dalton would be platform raising rather than extension although some of the redundant platform may be done at the same time.

 

[30907]

I seem to remember 16 being the number of 331/0s transferring east, although that could have changed by now. I don’t see why the Yorkshire needs 20 331/0s, equalling 9 diagrams with two units resting.

With the present timetable, you need 8 diagrams to work Leeds-Skipton and Ilkley with no interworking with the Bradfords and no peak extras.

 

[scrapy]

With the present timetable, you need 8 diagrams to work Leeds-Skipton and Ilkley with no interworking with the Bradfords and no peak extras.

Plus 2 diagrams for Doncasters

 

[30907]

Plus 2 diagrams for Doncasters

Will they be 6 cars as well?

 

[HST43257]

Will they be 6 cars as well?

They’ve always wanted (minimum) 4 cars, so I’d assume so.

 

[jonesy3001]

I can't see it happening as on the llkley line 4 cars can fit on all platforms unless there is plans to extend them as most are interworked with the Bradford,Skipton and Doncaster lines.

 

[AMD]

I maybe wrong but I heard Dalton would be platform raising rather than extension although some of the redundant platform may be done at the same time.

Yes, it's sorting out the issue on the down side with the gap/step - at present it's local door only with the 195s due to the gap being too big at the Barrow end of the platform.

 

[splashoutradio]

Didn't the Walkden line go up to 3 per hour before Covid? If so, it's back to two, with an extra in each peak.

It did for a while, however from personal experience punctuality would often suffer, and throughout the day, patronage probably didn't warrant 3tph.

Whilst it's by no means the busiest station on the network, it appears that proposed changes to services at Ardwick will see a reduction in usability.
A train from Hadfield to Piccadilly calls at 07:15 and a train from Piccadilly to New Mills Central at 16:57. This means that with the exception of Ashburys and Piccadilly, (stations that to many could be considered walkable and are substantially better served by bus,) there'll be no other stations served by both the outward and return service.

 

[Watershed]

Whilst it's by no means the busiest station on the network

Understatement of the century!

Ardwick recorded 1,520 passengers in the latest ORR annual statistics.

Of course, the possibility of data inaccuracies - for example as a result of people starting late or finishing short, or using zonal tickets which haven't been correctly attributed - cannot be eliminated. But, with respect, it is amongst the quietest stations in the country.

it appears that proposed changes to services at Ardwick will see a reduction in usability.

What, from "very inconvenient" to "almost totally pointless"? Yes, I'd agree.

A train from Hadfield to Piccadilly calls at 07:15 and a train from Piccadilly to New Mills Central at 16:57. This means that with the exception of Ashburys and Piccadilly, (stations that to many could be considered walkable and are substantially better served by bus,) there'll be no other stations served by both the outward and return service.

I wouldn't be surprised if a significant proportion of "passengers" at Ardwick turned out to be short fares bought to 'donut'.

With its current service, there is essentially no purpose to Ardwick remaining open as a station. However, even if it doesn't warrant much of a better service to serve passengers, it could still have some value if it were used in place of taxis between Piccadilly and Ardwick/Longsight depots.

Of course, neither depot is set up for this, as there is no direct walking route from the station to either depot, and hence a taxi would likely be quicker than the combined train and walking time.

 

[Starmill]

Ardwick probably could have a direct walking route to the depot but why bother to pay for one to be installed? Without coming up with some procedure for trains to call on request, for staff use only it would be little use. No doubt that would be very fiddly.

As it stands, the journey times are worse / the generalised costs are higher for the people on the two trains which are made to stop at Ardwick. This is foolish and benefits nobody. The station should just have it's calls all withdrawn, or limited to one a week only, on whichever train passing has the lowest predicted loading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ardwick is a bit useless at the moment, but given the way Manchester city centre is expanding outwards I think it's just biding its time. Once a week to keep it open would probably be OK.

That said I wonder if the footbridge is going to fall down first...

 

[LOL The Irony]

See there's no provision for the 2tph along the Mid Cheshire line.

Of course that wasn't going to happen. The works to make them happen only starts next year anyways. The bigger problem is that there are still no trains every hour on Sundays (the easier of the 2 promised improvements to implement).

Option C fell down on a a combination of:

1. "The Southport Question"
2. Driver training requirements
3. The level crossing impacts of diverting TfW via Northwich, and
4. The Operational Cost of it, as it required quite a few increases to turnround times etc to provide a neatly structured service through Central Manchester.

2 and 3 could have been delivered with more time to do so.

The problem is, nobody is thinking about this pragmatically. Everyone in a position to do something has been seemingly thinking with a get it done by a certain time attitude and not a how long until x is ready attitude. What is exactly stopping them introducing option c over several phases?

 

[Watershed]

Ardwick probably could have a direct walking route to the depot but why bother to pay for one to be installed? Without coming up with some procedure for trains to call on request, for staff use only it would be little use. No doubt that would be very fiddly.

Surely it is obvious? In any sensible, integrated system, a station directly adjacent to two large depots would be used in lieu of outsourced and often unreliable taxis for a journey of a mile and a bit along congested main roads.

Trains would have scheduled calls according to the times when units are required to arrive or depart from the depot. Or, in extremis, there could simply be a standing instruction that traincrew could pass in the cab of any stopping train and ask to be let off. The time lost for a 5 second dwell on a relatively small percentage of trains would be negligible, particularly given the low linespeed.

Of course that is not the world we live in, and thus polluting (predominantly) diesel taxis are used for such journeys instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it is obvious? In any sensible, integrated system, a station directly adjacent to two large depots would be used in lieu of outsourced and often unreliable taxis for a journey of a mile and a bit along congested main roads.

Driving from Piccadilly to Ardwick is through what feels like the death zone, not a congested main road.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course that is not the world we live in, and thus polluting (predominantly) diesel taxis are used for such journeys instead.

Are there such things yet as electric taxis?

 

[Watershed]

Driving from Piccadilly to Ardwick is through what feels like the death zone, not a congested main road.

I am reliably informed that the most direct route to the respective depots is via the Ashton Old Road (A635) and Hyde Road (A57). Both of which certainly see congestion.

Taxi related issues (traffic, taxis not turning up, turning up at the wrong place, going the wrong way etc.) have on numerous occasions caused cancellations, short forms and delays to trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

Are there such things yet as electric taxis?

They do exist, but they certainly do not yet make up the majority of the taxi fleet, nor the subset of that fleet which is used by TOCs.

 

[Starmill]

Surely it is obvious? In any sensible, integrated system, a station directly adjacent to two large depots would be used in lieu of outsourced and often unreliable taxis for a journey of a mile and a bit along congested main roads.

Trains would have scheduled calls according to the times when units are required to arrive or depart from the depot. Or, in extremis, there could simply be a standing instruction that traincrew could pass in the cab of any stopping train and ask to be let off. The time lost for a 5 second dwell on a relatively small percentage of trains would be negligible, particularly given the low linespeed.

Of course that is not the world we live in, and thus polluting (predominantly) diesel taxis are used for such journeys instead.

Yes, most definitely. I was actually thinking of a sensible operational procedure which the train crew might comply with universally (and not merely grudgingly) and the union would sign off on. As you say this is not the world we live in...

A couple of hundred taxi trips per day between Manchester Victoria and Manchester Oxford Road are sometimes required also (this may be lower if crew can share one taxi again). Again, in no sensible country would that be happening. Again, it often takes far longer than booked and trains run late as a consequence.

 

[skyhigh]

I can't see it happening as on the llkley line 4 cars can fit on all platforms unless there is plans to extend them as most are interworked with the Bradford,Skipton and Doncaster lines.

The plan is simply to use the ASDO fitted to 331s. It's all been assessed already.

 

[Kite159]

I bet the pay when challenged are looking forward to having pairs of 331s working out of Leeds, everybody into the front unit with the guard stuck in the back unit

I visited Ardwick a few years ago using the morning train (the one from Hadfield) and was surprised at how many passengers alighted there (around 18). Although how many of those were simply alighting to walk the last mile due to not having a ticket is an unknown