Does seem to be to save a diagram, 3 unit diagrams required to run the service half hourly this uses 2, be that because of a shortage of train crew or rolling stock, nothing to do with pathing or capacity.
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Northern Dec 2022 Manchester area Timetable Consultation
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I've seen that, I don't live along the line, but the comments I've seen on social media over the past couple of years...
This probably is for another thread, but Northern really need not to send 156+150 down the Mid-cheshire as they don't fit on the platforms.
I think Widnes is a victim of the decision to remove the second off peak stopping service between Manchester and Warrington. Urmston and Irlam stay at 2tph. I meant to include it in my list, it's the same at Birchwood.
Warrington West is similar, only 1tph to Manchester and it's exceptionally slow.
Warrington West is similar, only 1tph to Manchester and it's exceptionally slow.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
More about running them across Warrington, I think?
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This is why I wonder if it is an error. It doesn't seem to be a service designed for 2 diagrams, it seems to be a service designed for 3 with one missing.
They did introduce the 2310 Manchester Airport - Carlisle in December 2019 but without the Lancaster stop, I presume because Avanti would have had to keep the station open longer, staff employed later which I guess would have been a stumbling block.
Changing the last Piccadilly to Lancaster from 2225 to 2150 puts us back to the old days of pretty much a guaranteed hotel if you want to go to "evening things" in Manchester.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, it's very poor. They really should look to see if it can be pushed half an hour or so later like it used to be. I don't know if they've worked out the shifts and that saves a considerable sum, though.
Hopefully the local Press in Lancaster and Barrow pick it up and push the point - surely they should be louder than OPSTA? (Not that the Southport thing really affects this one) - if you actually live there (rather than just having noticed it as I do) perhaps it would be good to bring it to their attention.
It doesn't show all operators, but shows some of the others such as TfW, but not Avanti or Cross Country. That's OK.
The main thing for me is that my local service reverts to the pre-2018 timetable and, as already said, services terminate in the main Piccadilly station. In a way the post-2018 timetable has just about got to within a semblance of working nowadays, excepting the reliability of the 769s. Oh well.
The main thing for me is that my local service reverts to the pre-2018 timetable and, as already said, services terminate in the main Piccadilly station. In a way the post-2018 timetable has just about got to within a semblance of working nowadays, excepting the reliability of the 769s. Oh well.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I "might" have just tipped off the Lancaster Guardian and Barrow Evening Mail about the earlier last train from Manchester, let's see if that can get them some consultation responses 
Unlikely to be strengthening on the Barrow/Windermere due to platform lengths, although running 2*2 car 195s on some Barrow services is being investigated.
Should also be noted that the Blackpool to Manchester services (and Liverpool to Blackpool/Wigan) expected to revert to 4 car 331s from December 2022 so that will be a capacity loss also. (The 3 car units will be swapped back to Leeds area to run as 6 cars there once capacity at Leeds allows).
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is actually possible to run 6 car to Barrow, but you have to lock up the back unit north of Carnforth. I've seen it done in TPE days.
4 car to Barrow is certainly doable to Barrow with all coaches in use, I've also seen that, might require local door at some of the smaller stations.
I think I've seen 4 to Windermere before, too (double 156), but it might similarly require local door at intermediates.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Under the original Option B (or C) proposals, I believe that Trafford Park, Humphrey Park, Chassen Road and Glazebrook would all have got 1tph, Widnes would have retained 3tph, while Halewood and Hunt's Cross would have had 2tph. But the Oxford Road stopper (1tph) would have terminated at Warrington Central instead of running through to Lime Street, with 2tph stoppers from Lime Street also terminating at Warrington Central.
The change in Option B+ is because of the consultation responses, supported by TfN, that demanded retention of cross-Warrington services, especially direct trains from Warrington West to Padgate, Birchwood and Manchester. The through stopper has to skip-stop to stay ahead of the following semi-fast.
The consequent poor service at the minor stations is an unintended consequence of the assumptions in the business case for the construction of Warrington West, which raised unrealistic expectations about the service provision that would be possible at the new station.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Option C came very, very close to doing that. As did B+ in most places other than the vexatious issue of the CLC, but what Northern have put up is a lesser version of B+ with more cuts, some of them really sloppy such as a 3-diagram Rose Hill half hourly service with one diagram lopped out but nothing else changed.
Option C fell down on a a combination of:
1. "The Southport Question"
2. Driver training requirements
3. The level crossing impacts of diverting TfW via Northwich, and
4. The Operational Cost of it, as it required quite a few increases to turnround times etc to provide a neatly structured service through Central Manchester.
2 and 3 could have been delivered with more time to do so.
td97
Established Member
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Oh dear
AM peak services on Preston - Bolton - Manchester are full and standing with the 6 carriage provision today. One day several weeks ago a 319 was substituted and it was sardine style.
The corridor sees a lot of students heading to Oxford Road so is not badly affected in terms of fewer office commuters .
I hope local stakeholders will have enough clout to retain 6 carriage services west of the Pennines.
Weren't the 4 cars used on Blackpool to Liverpool and Wigan to Liverpool before they went East?
I don't think it's safe to assume that Blackpool to Manchester will go to 4 cars - there's 31 3 car units and only 12 4 car ones, unless the 333s were to go I'm not even sure there's enough space in the Leeds area to even stable them all!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
319s can't easily be reduced to 3 cars as there is equipment under every coach. That's why LNR's 321s were moved to Scotland with 319s replacing them - 321s can be easily shortened as one of the trailers is a "dead" trailer with no equipment required for operation.
But that's a bit moot, because you wouldn't want to replace 6 x 24m with 6 x 20m, as that's an overall reduction. You'd go to 8 x 20m.
That is interesting. I wonder if they could be lengthened to six instead !
There are some 6 car workings to Barrow now (mainly to move units around), however the rear set is usually locked throughout from the airport as it can easily take 5-10 minutes to lock the set out and this isn't allowed for in the timetable.
Issue with class 195 in multiple as a 4 car is there are no butterfly switches on the outside and the external crew access will not work with the drivers key in. So all passengers for Dalton and Roose would have to be in the rear set with the guard. This risks people who are not in the correct part from Ulverston being overcarried as there's no gangway between sets, and there are also accessibility issues as there is no wheelchair space (or lugs for a ramp) at the local door at the front of the rear set so it makes the train at Dalton and Roose (currently accessible)inaccessible for wheelchair users. There would likely be the same problems on the Windermere line.
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Think it's 20 or 21 3 cars heading east, so that will leave 10 or 11 in the west. Thats a maximum of 5 six car diagrams (more realistically I think there would be 4) certainly not enough to cover all the Manchester to Blackpool's as at present. 323s (single units) likely to be more common on Wigan to Liverpool stoppers from Dec 22.
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It just means more driving in for our household!Although I no longer live in the area, I was pleased to see that the local stations at the Manchester end of the Calder Valley line get their half hourly service back. The Leeds - Chester has calls at Low Moor added. This was supposed to be a part-replacement for the former TPE link between Leeds and Warrington yet it's the slowest train on the CV now, all stations Leeds to Todmorden.
A few other random comments -
Didn't the Walkden line go up to 3 per hour before Covid? If so, it's back to two, with an extra in each peak.
EMR still has some peak hour stops at Chinley to cater for Stockport commuters.
The Ordsall Chord is down to one train per hour as expected, not good value for what it cost. If it's the Redcar service even the overhead wires won't be used.
A few other random comments -
Didn't the Walkden line go up to 3 per hour before Covid? If so, it's back to two, with an extra in each peak.
EMR still has some peak hour stops at Chinley to cater for Stockport commuters.
The Ordsall Chord is down to one train per hour as expected, not good value for what it cost. If it's the Redcar service even the overhead wires won't be used.
Greybeard33
Established Member
I believe the 6-car 331s on the Blackpool route have to use SDO at some stations due to short platforms. That rules out older units (including Northern's 323s) that are not equipped with SDO.
Yes, the 319s are due to be handed back to Porterbrook by the May 22 timetable change, with the West Midlands 323s backfilling diagrams.
Adlington, Blackrod (DOWN), Layton (UP) and Leyland are the problem stations. There was a proposal floating about in 2019 at getting the 323s retrofitted with some form of SDO, however that's gone really quiet - I imagine someone had a look at the potential cost!
I wouldn't be too sure on that one. Though yes, in retrospect, 1tph is a pathetic showing for a ~£100m investment.
323235
Established Member
Glazebrook is very similar to Carrington, which is being taken over by new build houses. I think some level of extra development is inevitable and an eco village would be in keeping with the horticulture and nature of the area but whether is financially attractive enough is another matter.
As @yorksrob said it has some very good leisure options and there is enough demand to seemingly justify a ticket office for 3 hours in the morning on weekdays.
It isn't that far from Leigh, Lymm, Partington and Cadishead, so is a quieter railhead for these places particularly to Liverpool.
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From what I've heard the 323s from West Midlands Trains are running late again due to Class 730 introduction slipping further behind. They can't count on a full compliment for May 2022.
I was in a 6-car 195 from Manc to Barrow last month. On the approach to Wigan we were told that the rear 3 coaches would be detached there and so everyone would have to move to the front. (We did leave Wigan late but caught the time up fairly easily.) It was therefore surprising on arrival in Barrow when both units were still coupled together. There wasn't any obvious reason why they needed all 6 coaches south of Wigan so I'm assuming they just forgot at the airport. It's also odd they didn't change at Preston as the train was scheduled to stop for longer.
6 coaches will fit into the platform at Barrow but not at many (any?) of the other Furness Line stations. There was even one station (Dalton I think) where only one passenger door was opened.
There are insufficient three car 331s even today, with various pieces of EMU work in the Liverpool area still withdrawn, for the Manchester Airport or Hazel Grove to Blackpool North services to all be diagrammed with pairs.
The Manchester Victoria - Preston units will be released.
It seems likely that at least one more electric unit than today will be needed to provide separate Hazel Grove diagrams, which could be a four car if available, or a pair of three car 331s if not.
So however you look at it it's very unlikely that there are enough 331s to cover 2tph Manchester Airport - Blackpool North in pairs.
However, with a small amount of work at Layton and Adlington (Lancs), and a more significant amount of work at Leyland, and putting all of the calls at Salwick back into the South Fylde, pairs of 323s would be feasible.
Regarding the Cumbria services, the net provision of three two car 195 diagrams and a driver for shunting might be all that'd be necessary for these to run as five car between Manchester Airport and Preston.
I also note that the incoming fleet would hint at a small surplus of two car class 156 and three car class 323.
The Manchester Victoria - Preston units will be released.
It seems likely that at least one more electric unit than today will be needed to provide separate Hazel Grove diagrams, which could be a four car if available, or a pair of three car 331s if not.
So however you look at it it's very unlikely that there are enough 331s to cover 2tph Manchester Airport - Blackpool North in pairs.
However, with a small amount of work at Layton and Adlington (Lancs), and a more significant amount of work at Leyland, and putting all of the calls at Salwick back into the South Fylde, pairs of 323s would be feasible.
Regarding the Cumbria services, the net provision of three two car 195 diagrams and a driver for shunting might be all that'd be necessary for these to run as five car between Manchester Airport and Preston.
I also note that the incoming fleet would hint at a small surplus of two car class 156 and three car class 323.
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