Northern Dec 2022 Manchester area Timetable Consultation

[Ianno87]

Northern have launched a consultation on the Dec 2022 timetable: Now with actual timetables! (Showing all operators): https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/Manchester2022

December 2022 timetable - Manchester Recovery Task Force​

Earlier this year the Department for Transport, Transport for the North (TfN) and Network Rail sought views of rail users, the public and stakeholders on rail timetabling work that had been undertaken during 2020 by the Manchester Recovery Task Force (MRTF).

The MRTF was set up in January 2020 to develop and deliver solutions that improve the reliability of rail services for passengers. The MRTF was attended by a range of organisations, including the Department for Transport, TfN, train operators and Transport for Greater Manchester amongst others. The objective for the MRTF was to recast the rail timetable to address some of the structural issues around the pre-Covid timetable and provide reliable performance to passengers while different infrastructure solutions, with longer lead times, were planned, and delivered.

The public consultation, which ran from 14 January to 10 March 2021, has been used to help inform further work on the options. This led to a revised recommended timetable structure being developed. You can find out more about this timetable structure and why it was recommended in the consultation feedback document on the Department for Transport’s website.

Following that consultation, consideration of the comments received and the recommendation of the MRTF - and endorsed by the TfN Rail North Committee - Northern and TransPennine Express have produced indicative timetables which have now been published. These timetables are based on the MRTF’s recommended approach and are due to be introduced during December 2022.

Please note that these timetables will be subject to a bid and offer process with Network Rail and further operational refinement. The timings should therefore not be taken as definitive. Also, ongoing railway enhancement work including the Trans Pennine Upgrade will give rise to timetable amendments, during the course of the December 2022 timetable and in following years.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting to see 2tph at all of :
Urmston
Irlam
Birchwood

And one train every two hours for the majority of the day at:
Trafford Park
Humphrey Park
Chassen Road
Glazebrook

Lots of people claimed the cuts would not be so severe, and were of course wrong.

Buxton to Manchester 1tph most of the day

Hazel Grove to Manchester 2tph most of the day

And the DMUs from Manchester Airport via Lancaster call at Deansgate, Bolton, Chorley, Preston, with some calls at Salford Crescent. I hope that they have a rolling stock plan to strengthen those.

Most other points appear to be as expected. A return to 6tph Rochdale - Manchester including 2tph stopping services, and 2tph between Bolton and Blackburn.

 

[joshy.fre_2003]

Some very strange changes compared to now. I notice Blackpool / Preston has lost its 0333 Airport train, and Preston - Colne still doesn’t run early / late enough, especially on Sundays. Also, trains from Blackpool don’t reach Piccadilly and the airport until quite late in the day, and instead all terminate at MCO. Stations between Blackburn and Preston lose out on a Sunday morning service too until half past 10, no better than nowadays. Despite cuts being anticipated, this is quite disappointing on the whole

 

[Starmill]

I think it's not designed to be better in terms of more services. Indeed quite the opposite. Of course they allowed one slot to be wasted providing a Southport to Manchester Oxford Road rather than sticking with 2tph Southport to Stalybridge.

 

[sonic2009]

See there's no provision for the 2tph along the Mid Cheshire line.

 

[Ianno87]

I think it's not designed to be better in terms of more services. Indeed quite the opposite. Of course they allowed one slot to be wasted providing a Southport to Manchester Oxford Road rather than sticking with 2tph Southport to Stalybridge.

Interesting also that, excluding the Southport service, connections at Bolton towards Castlefield are metronomically pretty much every 15 minutes (assuming the Scotland service could be made an open stop).

So the folk of Southport would never have had to wait more than 10 minutes for a connection at Bolton. (As, by definition, two trains cannot arrive from the direction of Lostock Junction at the same time).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2021 ==

Interesting to see 2tph at all of :
Urmston
Irlam
Birchwood

And one train every two hours for the majority of the day at:
Trafford Park
Humphrey Park
Chassen Road
Glazebrook

Lots of people claimed the cuts would not be so severe, and were of course wrong.

Except for Birchwood, that is the current standard hour service at all of them. So not a cut at all. Urmston and Irlam get "promoted" to a fast service. That night be quite popular locally, connecting them to Lime Street faster, Piccadilly directly (that they don't have today) and across the Pennines.

 

[Watershed]

Some very strange changes compared to now. I notice Blackpool / Preston has lost its 0333 Airport train, and Preston - Colne still doesn’t run early / late enough, especially on Sundays. Also, trains from Blackpool don’t reach Piccadilly and the airport until quite late in the day, and instead all terminate at MCO. Stations between Blackburn and Preston lose out on a Sunday morning service too until half past 10, no better than nowadays. Despite cuts being anticipated, this is quite disappointing on the whole

I don't see why this should be particularly surprising? The consultation is broadly about changing service patterns, frequencies and exact timings; there was no proposal to have earlier first or later last trains (noting that, in most cases, they are already as early/late as route opening hours permit).

Sunday mornings are always a pain with the two track railway south of Piccadilly. Unfortunately something has to give to make it work, and that includes the Blackpool. Unless the maintenance strategy is drastically revised - so as to effect equivalent closures at other daylight hours - that's going to stay the same.

I do find it a bit disappointing that there isn't a journey planner or comparison functionality so people can clearly compare the old and new timetables, including for journeys which cross routes. But then again, the previous round of consultations also left something to be desired in areas including cross-industry coordination.

 

[Starmill]

It leaves some very poor intervals. Personally I would have preferred to abandon the pretense and cease serving Glazebrook and Trafford Park, in addition to avoiding the new Manchester Oxford Road terminator. Alas we're doomed to at least some avoidable inefficiency.

 

[LowLevel]

Interesting that EMR largely remains the fast service between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington losing most of the peak time extra calls that have been there since the 90s. Just two up calls and one down at Birchwood as far as I can see, stops at Irlam, Hough Green and Hunt's Cross being withdrawn.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see why this should be particularly surprising? The consultation is broadly about changing service patterns, frequencies and exact timings; there was no proposal to have earlier first or later last trains (noting that, in most cases, they are already as early/late as route opening hours permit).

Sunday mornings are always a pain with the two track railway south of Piccadilly. Unfortunately something has to give to make it work, and that includes the Blackpool. Unless the maintenance strategy is drastically revised - so as to effect equivalent closures at other daylight hours - that's going to stay the same.

I do find it a bit disappointing that there isn't a journey planner or comparison functionality so people can clearly compare the old and new timetables, including for journeys which cross routes. But then again, the previous round of consultations also left something to be desired in areas including cross-industry coordination.

Indeed. Well-managed shrinkage is the best we can hope for anywhere in the country for now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2021 ==

See there's no provision for the 2tph along the Mid Cheshire line.

Indeed not. Nobody was going to pay for that one at a time like this.

 

[tbtc]

The important thing is that Southport passengers have their hourly Castlefield link

If that means that other places have to drop down to just a train every couple of hours (on a network where some other places see their frequency halved) then that's a sacrifice that the people of Southport are happy for other people to make

 

[Starmill]

The important thing is that Southport passengers have their hourly Castlefield link

If that means that other places have to drop down to just a train every couple of hours (on a network where some other places see their frequency halved) then that's a sacrifice that the people of Southport are happy for other people to make

Indeed. And of course no peak only Wigan North Western - Hazel Grove via Golborne EMU services because of Southport.

Perhaps in 2025 we could have as proposed but including an all day Wigan NW - Hazel Grove calling at a new Golborne station, plus the 2tph Southport - Stalybridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It leaves some very poor intervals. Personally I would have preferred to abandon the pretense and cease serving Glazebrook and Trafford Park, in addition to avoiding the new Manchester Oxford Road terminator. Alas we're doomed to at least some avoidable inefficiency.

Glazebrook is in the middle of a field, but it does seem rather ripe for an "eco village" centred on the station.

 

[Halish Railway]

Note as well that Buckshaw Parkway & Horwich Parkway have lost 1tph in each direction.

 

[yorksrob]

I find Glazebrook quite handy for the local nature reserve.

I have to say, I'm rarely the only person leaving/joining the train there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last Manchester to Barrow is 40 minutes earlier than at present, which is a bit poor.

 

[Starmill]

Last Manchester to Barrow is 40 minutes earlier than at present, which is a bit poor.

Again, it was a bit of an outlier being so good in the first place. Probably not a surprise these things are targeted for cost cuts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2021 ==

Glazebrook is in the middle of a field, but it does seem rather ripe for an "eco village" centred on the station.

If some investors can convince the planning authority and have the money, it could be wonderful. But given that's not going to happen...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, it was a bit of an outlier being so good in the first place. Probably not a surprise these things are targeted for cost cuts.

To Barrow yes, but I would say Lancaster justifies later, even if it didn't go further. That said it could well be seen as an "ECS in service" as it is probably just a unit going to Barrow depot for the next day's service.

I will feed it back as it could well just be to keep the Takt clean (which it is) - but Ormskirk has its last service off Takt to make it slightly later, so Barrow I guess could unless it would be too tight on a shift end.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The important thing is that Southport passengers have their hourly Castlefield link

If that means that other places have to drop down to just a train every couple of hours (on a network where some other places see their frequency halved) then that's a sacrifice that the people of Southport are happy for other people to make

+1

A shame. I hope that the decision on Southport is seen for what it is soon, I don't get it. I catch the train to Southport regularly and once past Wigan you don't have that many on the train to be honest... Or maybe I'm just biassed before I get on the train

 

[Starmill]

To Barrow yes, but I would say Lancaster justifies later, even if it didn't go further. That said it could well be seen as an "ECS in service" as it is probably just a unit going to Barrow depot for the next day's service.

I will feed it back as it could well just be to keep the Takt clean (which it is) - but Ormskirk has its last service off Takt to make it slightly later, so Barrow I guess could unless it would be too tight on a shift end.

I think that this was planned in the form of a 2310 Manchester Airport to Carlisle service which formed the first Liverpool bound train the next day. Presumably such ideas are in the bin now as nobody wants to pay for them.

 

[Greybeard33]

See there's no provision for the 2tph along the Mid Cheshire line.

But the peak extras between Stockport and Chester are restored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that this was planned in the form of a 2310 Manchester Airport to Carlisle service which formed the first Liverpool bound train the next day. Presumably such ideas are in the bin now as nobody wants to pay for them.

Ah, yes, I think I recall that one being mentioned before. It does seem TPE have generally trimmed late evening trains, which is a shame if permanent.

 

[daodao]

It leaves some very poor intervals. Personally I would have preferred to abandon the pretence and cease serving Glazebrook and Trafford Park, in addition to avoiding the new Manchester Oxford Road terminator. Alas we're doomed to at least some avoidable inefficiency.

The Northern proposals are much worse than anything envisaged under the Manchester recovery plan consultation proposals, whether option B or C, or even B+, where it was intended to provide half-hourly services (minimum hourly) on as many routes as practicable. A 2 hourly service is worse than useless for suburban trains. For example, the proposed services for stations between Manchester and Irlam and from Manchester to Rose Hill via Hyde are particularly infrequent, with inappropriate skip-stopping.

 

[Starmill]

The Northern proposals are much worse than anything envisaged under the Manchester recovery plan consultation proposals, whether option B or C, where it was intended to provide half-hourly services on as many routes as practicable. A 2 hourly service is worse than useless for suburban trains. For example, the proposed services for stations between Manchester and Irlam and from Manchester to Rose Hill via Hyde are particularly infrequent, with inappropriate skip-stopping.

As I suggested, old inefficiencies die very hard in an industry that is so reluctant to change.

 

[Killingworth]

Some excellent news for Hope Valley stopping services if confirmed. An all day hourly, consistent stopping service has been a goal for decades and looks set to be achieved, eliminating confusing skip stops.

Be careful what you wish for as there's often a sting in the tail, and there is for peak time commuters into Sheffield from the Valley. Currently they have the choice of the Piccadilly departures at 5.46, 6.38 and 7.13 arriving at Sheffield at 6.59, 8.04 and 8.32 respectively. Pre-Covid the latter two were particularly busy. The gap until the next Piccadilly departure at 8.49, arriving at 10.06 is too big.

That problem is to be solved. This is to become Piccadilly departures at 5.46, 6.40, 7.48 and 8.48, arriving Sheffield 6.59, 8.05, 9.06 and 10.06 - which is neater timetabling, but will hack off half the regular commuters. That 8.32 arrival has been a commuter favourite since before WW2.

Those at Dore won't be so sore because EMR will be reinstating their 7.43 from Piccadilly that calls there at 8.28 and into Sheffield at 8.36. Before it was suspended that train had a reputation for almost always being late, usually much more than 4 minutes behind the Northern service it should currently follow at Dore.

It is a consultation so this is certain to be raised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Northern proposals are much worse than anything envisaged under the Manchester recovery plan consultation proposals, whether option B or C, or even B+, where it was intended to provide half-hourly services (minimum hourly) on as many routes as practicable. A 2 hourly service is worse than useless for suburban trains. For example, the proposed services for stations between Manchester and Irlam and from Manchester to Rose Hill via Hyde are particularly infrequent, with inappropriate skip-stopping.

The Rose Hill pattern is particularly odd, it is like there is a diagram missing. Plain hourly (as it was for years) would be better than that mess - it is swapping from half hour to half hour almost randomly. Could it be an error and there actually is a diagram missing, perhaps?

I know some hourly routes do justify a swapover of the minutes past each hour at lunchtime because of specific demands (e.g. the Marston Vale always used to do it so as to best accommodate the school traffic in both directions) but for Rose Hill I think it will have Stagecoach laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Ant158]

The Clitheroe line, despite the half hourly Blackburn to Rochdale, sees no overall improvement and actually loses the afternoon peak train through to Clitheroe that was there previously.

 

[jonnyfan]

Having had a read through the timetables, it is all very underwhelming - not that we should expect anything much in the current climate.
Some good...

• The Airport line finally gets a regular 2tph local all-stops service back.
• Covid cuts look to be mostly reversed between Liverpool and Wigan, between Blackburn, Bolton, Victoria and Rochdale and between Stalybridge and Victoria.
• The biggest benefit is the splitting up of services across Manchester, which we knew was coming, but good to see Crewe, Alderley Edge and Hazel Grove services all starting from the main shed at Piccadilly.
• Much better clock-face, regular service for the Hope Valley local services.
• Peak service between Wigan North Western & Victoria calling at Eccles, presumably this will be an EMU service.

Some neutral...

• Drop in frequency for Buckshaw Parkway and Horwich Parkway, although Horwich has some peak extra calls on the Barrow/Windermere services. Will these services be strengthened? 3 carriages could become a squeeze on those Cumbrian services now routed via Bolton. The current 3rd hourly service is down to 2-hourly currently and was closely timetabled to the main Blackpool services, so overall not a great loss especially with 6-car Class 331s running throughout the day now.
• The frequency of station calls on the Warrington Central line is maintained on the whole. Still a poor 2-hourly off-peak service for Glazebrook, Chassen Road, Humphrey Park and Trafford Park. And only hourly still for Hunts Cross, Halewood, Padgate and Flixton. Good to see Irlam and Urmston getting 2tph still with some faster journey opportunities to Liverpool.
• Warrington West drops down to 1tph to Manchester, but retains 2tph to Liverpool (it does however get some peak time calls in the TPE Cleethorpes service, so that helps to cancel out the loss).

Some disappointing...

• Birchwood drops to 2tph off-peak.
• Widnes gets a raw deal I think, down from 3 to 2tph, the Northern Lime Street to Oxford Road service no longer calls there - the remaining two services (the EMR and local Lime Street to Warrington Central) are timed close together.
• Lack of improvements to Sunday services, noticeably the abysmal Stoke to Piccadilly stopping service remains and the equally abysmal Piccadilly bound service for Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.
• In fact, the Sunday timetable is virtually untouched apart from the Cumbrian services now providing additional calls for Chorley and Bolton and the Wigan - Bolton - Victoria services once again extending to Stalybridge.
• There are better Sunday services for Piccadilly - Hadfield & Glossop, Styal & Wilmslow and Wigan - Bolton - Victoria but these are being re-introduced in December this year.

 

[mrd269697]

Why is Widnes losing a service per hour. It’s one of the busiest ‘non major’ (ie Liv Sth Pway, Warrington Cent) stations on the line.

Ellesmere Port line left to rot again. Mid Cheshire still only hourly - although at least the peak extras are back.

 

[yorksrob]

The Rose Hill pattern is particularly odd, it is like there is a diagram missing. Plain hourly (as it was for years) would be better than that mess - it is swapping from half hour to half hour almost randomly. Could it be an error and there actually is a diagram missing, perhaps?

I know some hourly routes do justify a swapover of the minutes past each hour at lunchtime because of specific demands (e.g. the Marston Vale always used to do it so as to best accommodate the school traffic in both directions) but for Rose Hill I think it will have Stagecoach laughing all the way to the bank.

Being run down to justify tramification perhaps.

How come all of these missing services if enough rolling stock is available (as was promised upon all the withdrawals)?