Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Bletchleyite]

The whole thing is comical.

I think it actually looks quite sensible, to be honest. More of a Swiss/German NBS* type approach (build the infrastructure where you need it, not as a blanket new thing), and I've always supported that concept for HS2.

* Neubaustrecke, just meaning new-build line, but in practice this is more of an add-on type approach than the French/Spanish one.

 

[quantinghome]

I've skimmed the report and quite apart from the major cutting back, there is awful lot of 'could' for something that describes itself as a 'plan'. The timescales are seriously unimpressive as well. Despite trumpeting a better service to Nottingham it looks like that won't be delivered for another 20 years!

 

[Ianno87]

Honestly?

Not a bad result I'd say for East-West NPR. Appears to be new line Warrington to Marsden, via HS2 through Manchester. Presumably connects into the Fiddlers Ferry route or something to get into Liverpool (seems to be loosely implied by the maps), and onto TRU to get into Leeds.

I think it actually looks quite sensible, to be honest. More of a Swiss/German NBS type approach (build the infrastructure where you need it, not as a blanket new thing), and I've always supported that concept for HS2.

And not building infrastructure where it is not simply needed. e.g. no point doing TRU through Huddersfield only to then have NPR bypass it. TRU just enables some early benefits of NPR, without then being abortive.

 

[LOL The Irony]

No mention of the HS2-WCML link to Golborne.

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

 

[MontyP]

This picture shows the scope of the IRP, showing a selection of non-London journey times. Taken from page 33 of the published IRP.

That junction between Warrington and Manchester Airport looks interesting ... Presumably it would allow E-W, N-S, E-S and E-N? If all grade-separated then I can't think of any other similar junction on the UK network.

 

[Mikey C]

I've skimmed the report and quite apart from the major cutting back, there is awful lot of 'could' for something that describes itself as a 'plan'. The timescales are seriously unimpressive as well. Despite trumpeting a better service to Nottingham it looks like that won't be deliver for another 20 years!

View attachment 105797

You'll get the MML electrification by 2032ish according to that diagram, so there will be some earlier benefits

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

The maps in the document do show that as being built, yes.

I wonder how long before Lymm starts shouting for a station on the Fiddlers Ferry route? It's a fairly big town not to have one.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On funding, the £96 billion includes the future spend (£42.5 billion) to complete HS2 (London-Crewe) as well as the extensions.
Other spend (£ billion):
HS2 western leg 17
TRU completion (full electrification) 5.4
HS2 eastern leg/MML/ECML upgrades 12.8
NPR new line 17.2
There is also 1.5 billion on local upgrades

 

[HSTEd]

How would they shave 20 mins off London-Leeds via ECML? What scale of work would need to be done? As per previous discussions, large sections of 140mph running would only take 6 mins off the journey time to York, so what else would be required?

One non stop train a day from London to Leeds.

Upgrades are ultimately a mirage to stop people complaining about cutting the stuff that actually matters long term.

 

[Mikey C]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

The Golborne Link is still in the document, when you look at the maps

 

[miami]

Is there proposed route for this Warrington - Marsden new line.

From the map it looks like Warrington, south of Lymn to the Phase 2B junction north east of High Leigh

If so, it could allow High Speed trains from the south to Warrington to avoid the Winsford-Acton bridge bottleneck (on the assumption that Bank Quay is used for the trains, and there are links to the WCML)

 

[MontyP]

One non stop train a day from London to Leeds.

Upgrades are ultimately a mirage to stop people complaining about cutting the stuff that actually matters long term.

Very cynical ... but probably true

 

[Roast Veg]

Appears to be new line Warrington to Marsden, via HS2 through Manchester. Presumably connects into the Fiddlers Ferry route or something to get into Liverpool (seems to be loosely implied by the maps), and onto TRU to get into Leeds.

The IRP specifically mentions Bank Quay low level, so it must be Fiddlers Ferry. EDIT: Fiddlers Ferry is explicitly confirmed.

 

[quantinghome]

You'll get the MML electrification by 2032ish according to that diagram, so there will be some earlier benefits

Great. 'Only' 11 years to wait. For comparison, ECML electrification was approved in 1984 and open to Leeds by 1988. The idea that this 'plan' is delivering things quicker is pure spin.

 

[Gareth]

I think it actually looks quite sensible, to be honest. More of a Swiss/German NBS* type approach (build the infrastructure where you need it, not as a blanket new thing), and I've always supported that concept for HS2.

* Neubaustrecke, just meaning new-build line, but in practice this is more of an add-on type approach than the French/Spanish one.

I mean the whole thing. It's been a calimity from the start.

I'll also believe the Warrington-Manchester-Marsden stuff when I see it.

 

[A0wen]

How would they shave 20 mins off London-Leeds via ECML? What scale of work would need to be done? As per previous discussions, large sections of 140mph running would only take 6 mins off the journey time to York, so what else would be required?

Well, the average speed on a London - Leeds service at the moment is about 85 mph (133 mins to cover 185 miles), to hit 110 mins (20 minute saving) would mean increasing that average to nearer 100 mph.

The ECML's pretty straight between London and Doncaster, so I'd expect there to be some capacity increases and tidying up of junctions. More of what was done both in the 60s and 80s as part of speeding up journeys along there.

 

[Howardh]

How will Edinburgh and Newcastle areas benefit from all this? Will the direct trains from there to London be any faster? Will they have to change on to HS trains somewhere? Will HS trains run there but just be slower?

 

[WestRiding]

So the Clayton to Leeds new line has been done away with too.

 

[physics34]

Without reading it does it mention anything about the East croydon works?

Without reading it does it mention anything about the East croydon works?

 

[Starmill]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

The maps in the document do show that as being built, yes.

Not so fast, check page 12:

The Union Connectivity Review is considering the
case for alternatives to the Golborne Spur for faster and higher capacity connections from HS2 services to Scotland.

 

[Roast Veg]

How will Edinburgh and Newcastle areas benefit from all this? Will the direct trains from there to London be any faster? Will they have to change on to HS trains somewhere? Will HS trains run there but just be slower?

All London services from these locations will travel on an upgraded ECML.

 

[Starmill]

Without reading it does it mention anything about the East croydon works?

It's the Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the North. No.

 

[Ianno87]

I'll also believe the Warrington-Manchester-Marsden stuff when I see it.

You can see it in this very plan. You have to start with the strategy before you know what you're delivering in a coherent, integrated manner.

 

[quantinghome]

Well, the average speed on a London - Leeds service at the moment is about 85 mph (133 mins to cover 185 miles), to hit 110 mins (20 minute saving) would mean increasing that average to nearer 100 mph.

The ECML's pretty straight between London and Doncaster, so I'd expect there to be some capacity increases and tidying up of junctions. More of what was done both in the 60s and 80s as part of speeding up journeys along there.

But it's been demonstrated that you only save 6 minutes by upgrading to 140mph. All the easy junction and station upgrades have been done already. As for capacity increases they are looking to up it to... wait for it... 8 fast trains per hour. Whoop dee doo.

 

[achmelvic]

Shapps keeps repeating that we'll see improvements sooner than waiting for HS2 in the 2040s.

Given the timescales shown in the IRP above what we'll actually get is:
Electrification of MML and Transpennine in the next 10-12years
Upgrades of ECML between mid 2020's and mid 2030's
HS2 from Birmingham to EMP opening in the mid 2040s
New line from Warrington to Marsden including HS2 2B opening early 2040's

So really it's just some upgrades happening before the 2040's.....

Oh and some studies into getting a West Yorkshire mass transit and 'how to get HS2 to Leeds' (assume is/was Clayton-Leeds HS line).

 

[Gareth]

You can see it in this very plan. You have to start with the strategy before you know what you're delivering in a coherent, integrated manner.

You know full well what I meant.

 

[HSTEd]

You can see it in this very plan. You have to start with the strategy before you know what you're delivering in a coherent, integrated manner.

We had a strategy - its just it keeps being "reviewed" every five minutes to ensure nothing ever actually gets built.

 

[physics34]

It's the Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the North. No.

It's the Integrated Rail Plan for the Midlands and the North. No.

Cool. I thought it was an announcement for the whole country until just now

 

[Ianno87]

We had a strategy - its just it keeps being "reviewed" every five minutes to ensure nothing ever actually gets built.

No, we had lots of competing proposals to get from everywhere to everywhere. *Now* we have a strategy.

 

[A0wen]

Great. 'Only' 11 years to wait. For comparison, ECML electrification was approved in 1984 and open to Leeds by 1988. The idea that this 'plan' is delivering things quicker is pure spin.

The plan to electrify to Peterborough was already in place by then though, so the first 70 or so miles from Kings Cross had at least been planned. Were there many (any ?) significant track or junction changes for that scheme ?

I suspect the key to this on the ECML will be increasing capacity - so look at the 2 track sections north of Peterborough and any "slow" junctions. There's not a huge amount that can be done south of Huntingdon that hasn't already been achieved - the obvious one would be Welwyn, but I doubt that's on the cards.