Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Roast Veg]

Was there any mention of the Castlefield Corridor bottleneck? As I understand the plans trains could avoid this by going via Warrington/Airport/HS2 on a new line towards Leeds - but will that call at Piccadilly or any new central Manchester station?

Yes, high speed services from Liverpool will travel via Warrington Bank Quay low level, then via new-line NPR and HS2 to Manchester Airport and Piccadilly, then reverse in the platform and head on new-line NPR as far as Marsden, then upgraded existing track to Leeds and beyond.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That junction between Warrington and Manchester Airport looks interesting ... Presumably it would allow E-W, N-S, E-S and E-N? If all grade-separated then I can't think of any other similar junction on the UK network.

Already shown on the latest edition of the Baker Rail Atlas.

 

[Confused52]

So does talk of HS line to Marsden mean a new tunnel rather than attempting to reuse Standedge?

The report says the NPR line will finish to the East of the Standege tunnels, so yes.

 

[Ianno87]

Was there any mention of the Castlefield Corridor bottleneck? As I understand the plans trains could avoid this by going via Warrington/Airport/HS2 on a new line towards Leeds - but will that call at Piccadilly or any new central Manchester station?

Basically Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds services will use HS2 infrastructure and no longer need to run via Castlefield/existing Central Manchester infrastructure.

Will Wigan > Manchester lines (via Bolton and Atherton) eventually be electrified?

Bolton-Wigan is already confirmed via a previous announcement.

 

[A0]

So how long until the NPR line from Manchester to Marsden/East of Standedge gets dropped as well, it's not due to start construction until the late 2030's so 15+ years for future governments to rain back on that plan as well and leave us with just an electrified TP line with a few upgrades between Leeds and Hudd.

How long do you think the process is to identify and consult on a new formation before you can put "boots on the ground" is then ?

Am I to take it you don't believe the process should be followed and the government should simply do what the Chinese government does and turn up and turf people out of their homes etc without question ? Does this approach also apply to new roads, airports or nuclear power stations or are railways special ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With regard to the comment, the straight route through Warrington via BQ LL exists and is not built on. That is very clear from a map.

The Fiddlers Ferry line does a sharp reverse curve through BQLL and Arpley, then a severely restricted bridge over the Mersey, then an abandoned bridge over the MSC whose condition closed the line eastwards in the first place.
The onward route is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail (and the old rail route is blocked by the M6 Thelwall Viaduct piers).

Other text in the document expects the new line to used for London/Birmingham-Liverpool trains, taking them off the WCML south of Ditton

 

[achmelvic]

So in summary what we're left with is:

HS2 Euston to Manchester to relieve WCML, coming in 2040's - going to happen anyway
Highspeed line from Rostherne to Warrington, coming in 2040's - plenty of time to scrap
Highspeed line from Manchester to Marsden, coming in 2040's - plenty of time to scrap
Highspeed line from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway, coming in 2040's - plenty of time to scrap
Electrification of existing TP route between York and Manchester - previously planned, then scaled back, now recommitted
Electrification of MML to Sheffield - previously planned, then scaled back, now recommitted
Upgrades of ECML - most of it previously planned, then scaled back, now recommitted
Electrification of Leeds-Bradford - would likely have happened eventually anyway and unlikely to make much sense without doing the Calder Valley line
A study into West Yorkshire mass transit - yet another proposal after decades of failed attempts

So ultimately only two 'new' projects (the last two) both of which are making up for past failings with the rest resurrected plans from years previously to make up for the scrapping of the HS2 east leg.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I'm intrigued by the mention of "a new high-speed line from Warrington to Manchester". There already three potential routes: Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Northwich, Central to Oxford Road via Glazebrook and Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Earlestown. What would be the purpose of a fourth line?

 

[Western Sunset]

Wasn't there mention recently of re-opening the Kirkby-in-Ashfield to Pye Bridge line to passengers? Presumably, these could serve a new station at Toton (or reopen the old Stapleford & Sandiacre station).

 

[Ianno87]

The Fiddlers Ferry line does a sharp reverse curve through BQLL and Arpley, then a severely restricted bridge over the Mersey, then an abandoned bridge over the MSC whose condition closed the line eastwards in the first place.
The onward route is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail (and the old rail route is blocked by the M6 Thelwall Viaduct piers).

Fixable with some money and land, on a route that is, to all intents and purposes, basically closed at present with little traffic.

 

[JamesT]

HS2 trains from Liverpool south running from Ditton Junction passed Fidler's Ferry through Warrington Bank Quay Low Level and on to the new HS2 line sounds, well, completely bonkers, just to serve Warrington. Can't see how it could possibly be quicker than going via Runcorn.

If you’re getting up to high speed on leaving Warrington then it can easily be faster than a more direct route. You’re also getting better use of the line by having both Liverpool-London trains as well as Liverpool-Manchester/Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Fiddlers Ferry line does a sharp reverse curve through BQLL and Arpley, then a severely restricted bridge over the Mersey, then an abandoned bridge over the MSC whose condition closed the line eastwards in the first place.
The onward route is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail (and the old rail route is blocked by the M6 Thelwall Viaduct piers).

Other text in the document expects the new line to used for London/Birmingham-Liverpool trains, taking them off the WCML south of Ditton

I would expect them to stop there so the lower speed would matter less. Warrington will after all lose the fast Scottish service, so the Liverpool would replace it. I would absolutely expect all NPR trains to stop there (replacing fast CLC services). So in short it doesn't matter.

Building a replacement cycle track is not exactly expensive.

If the trackbed is blocked near Thelwall, diverting it in place of the A56, and diverting that through the bridge north of it with a C road going under, is the obvious fix.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm intrigued by the mention of "a new high-speed line from Warrington to Manchester". There already three potential routes: Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Northwich, Central to Oxford Road via Glazebrook and Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Earlestown. What would be the purpose of a fourth line?

To carry onward to Liverpool, segregated (thus higher speed) than all the others, and get directly to Manchester Airport.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Speaking as a man with crayons and an occasional Rail Rover Leeds to Sheffield (and then on to the East Midlands) seemed to me a journey that was in crying need of a faster time. To Sheffield up the MML seems a modest loss but wouldn't a fast line on to Leeds have been reasonable value?

 

[achmelvic]

How long do you think the process is to identify and consult on a new formation before you can put "boots on the ground" is then ?

Am I to take it you don't believe the process should be followed and the government should simply do what the Chinese government does and turn up and turf people out of their homes etc without question ? Does this approach also apply to new roads, airports or nuclear power stations or are railways special ?

I fully agree that proper process needs to followed and understand why big projects take time to be delivered, it's just the cynic in me suggesting that 15+ years is enough time for this project to get scaled back and/or cancelled as well

 

[Howardh]

Yes, high speed services from Liverpool will travel via Warrington Bank Quay low level, then via new-line NPR and HS2 to Manchester Airport and Piccadilly, then reverse in the platform and head on new-line NPR as far as Marsden, then upgraded existing track to Leeds and beyond.

Thanks, that means time "lost" reversing at Picc then.

 

[TheBigD]

I'd imagine it will resurrect much of the earlier L2E4 work including Newark Grade Separation, bundled in with PSU2, Digital Signalling and the NPR work for York - Newcastle. An approach and electrification from Hambleton Junction westwards to Leeds will be faster than accessing via Wakefield Westgate too. In terms of what is needed for 140mph as someone asked earlier - lots, all yours for say £3-5bn:

- OLE upgrading including fitting Carrier Wire Neutral Sections, HS2P conversion, modification/improvement of clearances and lots of Traction Power supply reinforcement. The equipment on the east coast has been receiving some funding in the past to upgrade to Mk3D and improve it's resilience in known trouble spots. Probably some lifting or rebuilding of certain overbridges to gain the necessary clearances.
- Closure of open platform faces in potential 140mph sections (Biggleswade, Sandy, Stevenage and Northallerton)
- High security palisade fencing throughout
- Aerodynamic modifications in tunnels
- Closure of any Level Crossings in >125mph sections. Some are already in play or anticipated (Lindsells, Love Lane (for Wintringham), Copmanthorpe No.2, Thirsk Station if it gets AFA funding to develop beyond design/feasibility).
- In cab signalling
- Civils works (underbridges, any weak earthworks etc.)
- Track replacement for any pre 1978 CWR and any non pandrol fittings. Lots of track fettling to improve ride quality.
- Swing nose points on the Fast Lines
- Train to structure gauging.
- Probably extra access points as you won't be red zone working on 140mph lines.

Sections to upgrade to 140mph?

1. Woolmer Green to Connington with a slight reduction through Offord
2. New England to Stoke Tunnel
3. Sections north of Grantham to just south of Bawtry where curvature allows.
4. Doncaster all the way through the Selby Diversion up to Colton/Copmanthorpe Area
5. Skelton Junction to around Croft on Tees
6. Perhaps north of Newcastle from say Littlehoughton to Spittal

Other schemes will help in terms of capacity:

- You'd also want to resurrect HW4T; it will also in any event be needed at least as far north as the proposed site of the Alconbury Weald station.
- Grade separation at Doncaster to/from Leeds
- Remodelling York North Throat/Skelton Junction
- Any freight loops between York and Newcastle
- Grade separation at Northallerton
- Darlington Station remodelling (funded)

Forget Closing Welwyn North and adding extra Viaducts and tunnels in the area; I suspect these will be managed by cab-signalling and timetabling modelling.

I was going to ask about potential ECML upgrades so thank you for this comprehensive post.

Probably worth a thread of it own...

 

[A0]

I fully agree that proper process needs to followed and understand why big projects take time to be delivered, it's just the cynic in me suggesting that 15+ years is enough time for this project to get scaled back and/or cancelled as well

So if in 15 years time these no longer make economic sense because things have changed, we should blunder on regardless "because we said that's what we'd do in 2021" and not reflect on the realities at the point the cheques need to be written ?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'd imagine far more journeys are in that direction (East Midlands to London) than to Sheffield or Leeds

And that imbalance will continue whilst rails links north from the East Midlands remain poor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, that means time "lost" reversing at Picc then.

If the reversal is done efficiently with a new driver standing waiting at the front end to take over, it needn't waste any more than a faffy stop at 13/14 does now.

 

[snowball]

I'm intrigued by the mention of "a new high-speed line from Warrington to Manchester". There already three potential routes: Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Northwich, Central to Oxford Road via Glazebrook and Bank Quay to Piccadilly via Earlestown. What would be the purpose of a fourth line?

New alignment Warrington to Lymm to connect with the HS2 approach from the Lymm area to Piccadilly HS2 via Manchester Airport HS2.

 

[ABB125]

So if in 15 years time these no longer make economic sense because things have changed, we should blunder on regardless "because we said that's what we'd do in 2021" and not reflect on the realities at the point the cheques need to be written ?

So we then spend another 15 years paying vast sums of money to consultants to create new plans, only to find that, when the new cheque is about to be written, things have changed (again) and the plans are no longer suitable?

And repeat...

 

[Roast Veg]

The Fiddlers Ferry line does a sharp reverse curve through BQLL and Arpley, then a severely restricted bridge over the Mersey, then an abandoned bridge over the MSC whose condition closed the line eastwards in the first place.
The onward route is now part of the Trans Pennine Trail (and the old rail route is blocked by the M6 Thelwall Viaduct piers).

You can probably expect the line to start descending into tunnel immediately after Wilderspoon Bridge, and for Arpley Junction to be plain-lined. The slow bit immediately west of BQ will need to be looked at because of the level crossings anyway.

Thanks, that means time "lost" reversing at Picc then.

The NIC suggested the underground through station at Manchester was preferable, but the reversal ought to be fast. Services will be doing it from Birmingham towards Leeds as well, and I'm sure it will become very slick. Not nice for people like myself who won't travel backwards though!

It also gives you Manchester Airport access, which is a win.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we then spend another 15 years paying vast sums of money to consultants to create new plans, only to find that, when the new cheque is about to be written, things have changed (again) and the plans are no longer suitable?

And repeat...

This is why the Neubaustrecke concept is good - you do a bit at a time as appropriate in line with the desired timetable, not one big bang project. An evolution, not a revolution. This is what the new NPR looks like.

 

[Moonshot]

Is there anything in these proposals that is actually shovel ready?

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks, that means time "lost" reversing at Picc then.

If the reversal is done efficiently with a new driver standing waiting at the front end to take over, it needn't waste any more than a faffy stop at 13/14 does now.

And any time "lost" is more than offset anyway by high speed running between Liverpool and Manchester and Manchester and Leeds, for through Liverpool-Leeds passengers (the reversal is of no consequence to those passengers boarding alighting at Piccadilly itself).

The only way to avoid the reversal is via an Underground station, for which the report goes into quite a lot of detail (3.19) as to why that's not a panacea (takes 7 years longer to build for starters).

 

[A0]

So we then spend another 15 years paying vast sums of money to consultants to create new plans, only to find that, when the new cheque is about to be written, things have changed (again) and the plans are no longer suitable?

And repeat...

It's a balance - some things do come back around a few years later, that's true. In fact in railway terms you could argue the point using the ECML electrification as an example - both the NER and LNER proposed it, but the economic times weren't right, it was proposed again in the 1960s but the WCML was done instead, so it finally got done in the 1980s - does that mean the work on those earlier plans was a waste? Probably not, because they no doubt resulted in infrastructure changes which then made the final scheme in the 1980s easier.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Wasn't there mention recently of re-opening the Kirkby-in-Ashfield to Pye Bridge line to passengers? Presumably, these could serve a new station at Toton (or reopen the old Stapleford & Sandiacre station).

There is, refers to the Maid Marion line in my previous post, but what is the point in sending passengers to Toton rather than going to Nottingham Station via Trowell?

 

[Howardh]

If the reversal is done efficiently with a new driver standing waiting at the front end to take over, it needn't waste any more than a faffy stop at 13/14 does now.

True, if the new line loops to the south via the airport, it's a much greater distance therefore I wonder what the current time is now from Liverpool/Warrington to Manchester via 13/14 and onwards, compared with a train from Liverpool/Warrington via Airport into platforms (presumably) 1 - 4, change driver and out again?
Admitting that it's common to be held up getting to 13/14 and any trains off that corridor is a bonus!

Secondly, will trains still use the Ordsall curve? If pax need to get to Piccadilly/Airport/all points west won't they use the new line meaning the Ordsall curve becomes more-or-less a disused line, or for local traffic rather than the TPE long-distance trains that use it (rather sparingly) now?

 

[A0]

Is there anything in these proposals that is actually shovel ready?

Probably not by the very definition of this report - it's a *strategy* the very first step in the process.

Some of the items in it are possibly further down the planning process than others, but you wouldn't introduce "shovel ready" projects in a strategy document.