Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Dixie]

Though not everyone joining Euston trains at Runcorn lives in Runcorn.

But whether they live in Runcorn or Widnes, the Wirral or towards Chester, at least they don't have to travel to Warrington as I would strongly suspect they won't stop in Widnes. Warrington already gets a good service North and South

 

[The Planner]

So we've got a Birmingham Curzon St-Nottingham HS route, loudly posted as a 28 minute journey time.
What do you do with such a service at each end?
There are no planned links west from Birmingham or east from Nottingham.
Will it just be a shuttle? As a 200m HS train?
Maybe it then reverses and goes back to Euston.

Depends how they want to utilise the assets, could be a Euston - Curzon St, Curzon St - Nottingham, Nottingham - Euston.

 

[quantinghome]

In the meantime, WECA gets a shed load of money for infrastructure work in the city itself such as trams or guided busways.

Which if you had actually read the full document you would know......

Hope your day improves.....

WYCA have been promised a grand total of £200 million to spend on development of mass transit with something up and running "in the second half of the decade". I await the commitment of the actual money needed to build a mass transit system - the report says this will exceed £2bn for the initial network (which is credible), some of which is expected to come from local taxpayers. Nice.

Except the Mayor's team have just read the small print and found £100 million of the promised money is for developing the Leeds-Sheffield route, which frankly should have been done at high level before they decided to cancel HS2 into Leeds.

My day's going pretty well. The patronising comments I can do without though.

 

[modernrail]

This plan shows how broken our overly centralised system of Government is. Remember, this is a country in which the central Government literally hands out cash to fill pot holes.

The ambition and timescales are one thing. Not enough. However, the biggest problem here is that we effectively have a bunch of announcements in a single document, all of which have been made individually by this Government and with better timescales in the past.

Without a statutory delegation of budget to regional authorities or NR to make this happen, it is nothing more than an aspiration. There can be no trust in it happening because nothing previously announced has happened. When there is no trust in something happening, regional economies cannot plan to improve their GDP, or worse, are distracted into huge amounts of activity on soon to be broken promises.

Yorkshire and the North East Tory MP’s must be wondering what it is all about.

 

[21C101]

which will also allow service increases on the Nottingham/Lincoln/South Humberside route, providing connections to HS2 at Nottingham. Currently the ECML forms a significant barrier to services between Lincolnshire and the rest of the Midlands.

It will mean Birmingham to Lincoln via Nottingham takes less than an hour and a half.

 

[YorksLad12]

So where is Bradford? What is it for? Not wanting to be rude; but seeking to see it as the government may be seeing 'the north'? I confess to thinking that 6-8tph. best 18mins looks quite good ! And 30 mins 'cut' to London for those 'needing' to go there ... Maybe not the best cost-benefit (BCA)? I did note however the MP for Keighley not happy, so a bit of 'cross-party' Bradford Together (just repeated on Radio 4).
I do very much appreciate the benefit Bradford would and should get in terms of ready and rapid access to a wider range of employment destinations and sources of employees. Not sure how to get that to happen.
Similarly Hull??

Good points. Bradford is no longer the economic powerhouse it never really was, but Bradford would point out that that is, in part, because of poor rail links. The rest of us would also point out all of the hills, which don't help much.

From the centre of Leeds to Bradford Interchange, the X6 bus (the fastest) takes around 45 minutes. The train from the centre of Leeds to Interchange takes, say, 20 minutes. Both take a similar route through from Leeds until the outskirts of Bradford (Laisterdyke), when we get all of the elevation changes. So yes; travel time is good, but it could be better. Given that Leeds-Manchester is five fast trains per hour (pre-Covid timetable), Leeds-Bradford(-Halifax) should also have fast, regular services, given the shorter distances.

I'm not saying that that's to the exclusion of other places, but then that's the point of levelling up - we should all be benefitting. Random statements about a 12-minute journey time, or no plans at all (Sheffield, Hull) isn't really it.

 

[adrock1976]

Some of the improvements are eye-wateringly slow.

I have a document somewhere issued when I was in my 30s showing a BR electrification plan which included Trans Pennine.

Looks as though I'll be well into my 80s when it gets finished.

Was that the electrification report that British Rail published in 1980 that had the order of which routes to electrify, and that 85% of the network would/could be electrified by the year 2000 if the Thatcher Government at the time allowed BR to roll up their sleeves and get on with it?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not saying that that's to the exclusion of other places, but then that's the point of levelling up - we should all be benefitting. Random statements about a 12-minute journey time, or no plans at all (Sheffield, Hull) isn't really it.

Everybody isn’t going to benefit. The ethos behind the Northern Powerhouse, and now the levelling up thing, has been clear from the start. Create a small number of regional mini-Londons (Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield) and concentrate all the investment around them and getting people into them. It was quite obvious from the start everywhere wasn’t going to benefit.

 

[childwallblues]

The maps in the document do show that as being built, yes.

I wonder how long before Lymm starts shouting for a station on the Fiddlers Ferry route? It's a fairly big town not to have one.

Personally I think Warringto to Marsden is going to use a lot of infrastructure lst used many years ago.

 

[childwallblues]

Pretty much, the decades of future promises for West Yorkshire continue.

Time for the West Yorks Mayor to actually do something.

Perhaps she yearns for Coronation Street

 

[adrock1976]

I'll be reading the full document before harrumphing in a disappointed manner, but:



I did say (suggest) in a Speculative Ideas thread that the new platforms at Leeds should be built anyway, with all Leeds to Wakefield and beyond services using it. That would free up space at Leeds West End and avoid part of the curves between Outwood/Woodlesford and Leeds.

Sheffield is almost south of Leeds; but to get there you either have to follow a sine wave via Kirkgate and Barnsley or a right-angled triangle via Moorthorpe. Something needs to be done to speed up journey times between these two cities - it sounds like nothing is being proposed.

Bradford to Leeds can be done in 12 minutes, if you're talking about the old city boundaries. You could walk that in 12 minutes...

While having had a look at Google Maps, I have noticed that there is an area in Bradford called New Leeds.

I am unsure if it would take 12 minutes to walk from Interchange to New Leeds, as I think you would have to get across the main Wakefield Road at some point.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is there any update on the Barnett consequentials from today's announcement?

No this is money that was already budgeted for the department, they are just allocating where it is spent.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Erewash Valley is (with the exception of Toton's new station) not in scope.

That seems deeply short sighted.

 

[Roast Veg]

That seems deeply short sighted.

We shall see what happens when Network Rail take a look at how they can accommodate the required HS2 trains to Sheffield. They may determine that the Erewash Valley is the only way to make up the paths. The IRP doesn't think so. Since they don't have to handle Birmingham to Leeds traffic, which goes via Manchester, it doesn't seem like a hard requirement.

 

[James90012]

For NPR this sounds to me like the right and balanced solution. Whenever I attended webinars or read the various documents it felt so aspirational it didn't seem credible. This makes better use of already planned high speed infrastructure and is therefore an efficient solution. Clearly it's not as ambitious as some of the early thinking, but none of those proposals were ever committed (I don't think) by Government so nothing is truly being 'lost'.

I also noted that things like electrification to Hull (and the other NPR destinations) is acknowledged in the document as not part of the core proposal, but I think really electrification should be part of the Core NPR scheme so the whole lot can be electrific when the TPE route upgrade is complete.

The same can not be said for the fundamental changes to HS2 and the reliance on the ECML going forward. Leeds was committed as part of Phase 2b to have high speed services with journey times to match so there is a real cut there, and similarly for York and stations to Newcastle. That said, with a perfect run I've done King's Cross to York in as little as 1 hour 45 on the current infrastructure, so it does seem to be the 'right way' for York and stations to Newcastle. I think the Edinburgh question will come out in the Union Connectivity review, I cannot see a world where Glasgow is faster to get to by rail than Edinbrugh which suggests to me the WCML and HS2 will remain the key route to Edinburgh, but perhaps instead of 2 high speed trains per hour it's 1 with 1 quick service via the ECML and a further 'semi fast'.

The bit that falls through the cracks is the connectivity from Nottingham northwards, towards Leeds and York but that's a function of TfNorth and TfWest Mids looking east west but not north/south to each other.

 

[asw22]

Just quoted Bradford to Leeds in 12 minutes. NPR must be coming through Bradford then.

Just heard him say Warrington to Marsden. Electrification cannot deliver Leeds to Bradford in 12 minutes. Track speeds will just not allow it.

The DfT press release says "separately, we could halve journey times between Bradford and Leeds, to be as low as 12 minutes". I'd say that "could" is of more importance there than "12 minutes".

My hope that been that if Clayton-Leeds has actually been built with a new spur to the Donny line the proposed HS2 station could have been used for ECML services, albeit maybe with shorter platforms which would free up capacity in the existing station for the improved NPR and local services.

As it looks now there'll be nothing done at Leeds station and pretty much it'll stay as it is for the next 20-30 years.

Current journey time from Leeds to Bfd Interchange is around 18 mins at the moment, with 1 or 2 intermediate stops? How quick would it be if it was non-stop with no other upgrades? Would a 12 min service require 4-tracking? A fast train every 15 mins (taking 12 mins) could work on 2 tracks with a stopper every 15 mins taking 18-20 mins although platform/throat capacity at each end would presumably be the main issue.

Bradford Interchange to New Pudsey (Leeds West, Conservative) is definitely doable by train in 12 minutes.

On a serious note, it is not unheard of to be waiting for 12 minutes for a platform to become available at Leeds Rail Station

With extra trains planned into Leeds this will be a bottleneck that will need resolving.

Leeds Rail Station to Bradford Interchange is impossible in 12 minutes due to the gradients and curves on this line
Not sure if the Leeds to Bradford Forster Square train could be speeded up, but then this has the Shipley triangle to deal with.

 

[Roast Veg]

On a serious note, it is not unheard of to be waiting for 12 minutes for a platform to become available at Leeds Rail Station

With extra trains planned into Leeds this will be a bottleneck that will need resolving.

Leeds expansion is within scope. No designs for it, of course.

 

[6Gman]

Was that the electrification report that British Rail published in 1980 that had the order of which routes to electrify, and that 85% of the network would/could be electrified by the year 2000 if the Thatcher Government at the time allowed BR to roll up their sleeves and get on with it?

It might well be; somewhere in my career I acquired a photocopy of a sequential listing of projects.

 

[adrock1976]

For NPR this sounds to me like the right and balanced solution. Whenever I attended webinars or read the various documents it felt so aspirational it didn't seem credible. This makes better use of already planned high speed infrastructure and is therefore an efficient solution. Clearly it's not as ambitious as some of the early thinking, but none of those proposals were ever committed (I don't think) by Government so nothing is truly being 'lost'.

I also noted that things like electrification to Hull (and the other NPR destinations) is acknowledged in the document as not part of the core proposal, but I think really electrification should be part of the Core NPR scheme so the whole lot can be electrific when the TPE route upgrade is complete.

SNIP

Regarding electrification to Hull, I remember seeing a news item years ago that First Group (present operator of Hull Trains) developed or came up with a proposal that they would fund the Doncaster - Selby - Hull wires, and would charge Network Rail for use of the wires in return for running extra services or something like that.

What happened to those plans?

PS As it was so long ago, my memory may be slightly fuzzy regarding the deal that First Group had put forward.

 

[Skie]

I certainly see lots of people joining Euston trains at Runcorn.

And we can assume the relevant Local Authority (Halton BC) will be kicking up stink.

Runcorn is an odd station and has been seeing a regular decline in usage over the past few years. Could be down to the new bridge being tolled. I certainly have colleagues who in the past would drive to the station instead of travel via Merseyrail to Lime Street as it was so well placed on the road network. The new bridge has removed a lot of that connectivity too, with the old bridge being largely only useful for local traffic (and newly tolled).

I think it’s a myth that Runcorn itself has a high demand for London journeys. It was a useful parkway station, that’s all.

 

[miami]

Have you ever been involved in strategy development or project delivery?

Nothing that even attempts something as pathetic as no deliveries for 20 years in a best case scenario, especially one with a track record of replacing the strategy roughly three times in that period.

For comparison the Apollo program lasted 11 years, accomplishing its headline goal in 8 years.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Was that the electrification report that British Rail published in 1980 that had the order of which routes to electrify, and that 85% of the network would/could be electrified by the year 2000 if the Thatcher Government at the time allowed BR to roll up their sleeves and get on with it?

It might well be; somewhere in my career I acquired a photocopy of a sequential listing of projects.

You mean this one

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoTBRB_Electrification1981.pdf

 

[MarkyT]

It certainly seems like bi-mode Auroras will be wasted within ten years of their introduction as, once the MML is fully electrified in the early/mid 2030s they will run all the way under wires - the only benefit of the Diesel engine will come for occasional diversions over the Erewash Valley

In which case most or all of the modular diesel generator rafts can be removed, with the trains becoming wholly electric in normal service. Some or all of the engines might be replaced by modular battery packs that can be installed in the same space, as proposed for some other 8xx units. Like bi-mode diesel, that would also provide off-grid range that can be used for moderate distance diversions and to continue service through temporary isolations, either planned for maintenance or in an emergency.

 

[Ianno87]

For comparison the Apollo program lasted 11 years, accomplishing its headline goal in 8 years.

With enormous (near-bottomless) amounts of resource and money thrown at it, of course.

 

[quantinghome]

For NPR this sounds to me like the right and balanced solution. Whenever I attended webinars or read the various documents it felt so aspirational it didn't seem credible. This makes better use of already planned high speed infrastructure and is therefore an efficient solution. Clearly it's not as ambitious as some of the early thinking, but none of those proposals were ever committed (I don't think) by Government so nothing is truly being 'lost'.

It's only efficient if you have segregation of high speed and local services over the whole length. On the basis of the commitments given in the report it looks like high speed and local services will be sharing tracks between "somewhere east of Standedge" and Huddersfield, and between Ravensthorpe and Leeds. This massively reduces the efficiency of the line, and means the newly built expensive section from Manchester to " east of Standedge" cannot be used to its full potential. So the opposite of efficient I'm sorry to say.

 

[adrock1976]

You mean this one

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoTBRB_Electrification1981.pdf

Yes, that was what I was referring to in my previous post.

 

[Ianno87]

It's only efficient if you have segregation of high speed and local services over the whole length. On the basis of the commitments given in the report it looks like high speed and local services will be sharing tracks between "somewhere east of Standedge" and Huddersfield, and between Ravensthorpe and Leeds. This massively reduces the efficiency of the line, and means the newly built expensive section from Manchester to " east of Standedge" cannot be used to its full potential. So the opposite of efficient I'm sorry to say.

"Full potential" is going to be governed by many factors. For example, there is little point (say) having a dedicated NPR line right into Leeds Station if then you don't have enough platforms there.

My hunch is that (taking Leeds-Manchester as an example)
-The scope of TRU, as stated (essentially 4-tracking Huddersfield to Dewsbury, plus grade separation of the area, plus full electrification) buys 8 Fast paths per hour between Leeds and Manchester, plus some journey time reductions
-Then NPR plugs into this, takes those 8 Fast Paths and significantly accelerates them between Huddersfield and Manchester
-That probably starts to "max out" a number of other places, such as the number of practical paths for NPR services on HS2 through Manchester Airport, or the practical platform capacity of Leeds (for example), so expanding the scope even further, whilst theoretically segregating Fast and Slow services even more, doesn't actually yield any further benefit in terms of achievable trains per hour


NPR and TRU combined pretty much give a dedicated pair of "non-stop" tracks all the way from Manchester Piccadilly to Dewsbury.

 

[NoRoute]

With enormous (near-bottomless) amounts of resource and money thrown at it, of course.

Wikipedia reckons $156 Billion in 2019 prices, so around £115 Billion. Add in some inevitable over-spend on the various rail projects, the two projects probably come out about even.

So no more bottomless than a UK railway project.

 

[Ianno87]

Wikipedia reckons $156 Billion in 2019 prices, so around £115 Billion. Add in some inevitable over-spend on the various rail projects, the two projects probably come out about even.

So no more bottomless than a UK railway project.

I must have missed whichever £115 billion rail project has happened of late.

 

[GoneSouth]

Current journey time from Leeds to Bfd Interchange is around 18 mins at the moment, with 1 or 2 intermediate stops? How quick would it be if it was non-stop with no other upgrades? Would a 12 min service require 4-tracking? A fast train every 15 mins (taking 12 mins) could work on 2 tracks with a stopper every 15 mins taking 18-20 mins although platform/throat capacity at each end would presumably be the main issue.

Back in the day a HST used to do it in 15 (and that stopped at Pudsey so 12 achievable between the 2 City centres non stop even then)…

ahhhh them were the days, you could get a daily (yes 1) train from Bradford to Devon. Congrats Mr Shapps on bringing Bradford back up to 1980s speeds (well, by around 2045 you will might)! You can’t make this stuff up.

On the subject of Yorkshire to the south west, I’m assuming this will be a thing of the past too given Leeds to Brum will go to Curzon… the “wins” for Leeds are stacking up nicely.