Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[numero uno]

My problem with the IRP is the new NPR line doesn't reach Yorkshire. How can extra services be added to a two track railway that already has pinchpoints especially at Leeds and Sheffield stations? They talk of 8tph Leeds- Manchester but how is there room for them in Leeds especially ?

In terms of Leeds station, the report mentions that they are going to increase capacity at the station whilst at the same time designing the Leeds Metro so that it reduces the heavy rail demand for local routes. The NPR services are also expected to be through services that turnback at York (or presumably Hull/Newcastle at some point).

This seems to be heavily reliant on delivering a Leeds Metro that is close to the aspirational mass transit plan WYCA announced earlier in the year. That would essentially cater to the entire West Yorkshire region but would presumably be eye wateringly expensive to deliver.

 

[Glenn1969]

In terms of Leeds station, the report mentions that they are going to increase capacity at the station whilst at the same time designing the Leeds Metro so that it reduces the heavy rail demand for local routes. The NPR services are also expected to be through services that turnback at York (or presumably Hull/Newcastle at some point).

This seems to be heavily reliant on delivering a Leeds Metro that is close to the aspirational mass transit plan WYCA announced earlier in the year. That would essentially cater to the entire West Yorkshire region but would presumably be eye wateringly expensive to deliver.

£2bn. But funded at least in part via a transport precept paid by residents. I'm in favour of that but would a majority be if it went to a referendum ?

 

[BayPaul]

Manchester and Birmingham excepted, it doesn't. As you suggest, you can't create a metro frequency local network unless you remove fast trains from the local lines. So even where the IRP provides significant benefits such as Nottingham and Derby getting a fast direct link to Birmingham and London, the use of existing lines means local services inevitably will be sacrificed.

It may also allow more metro frequency services in Liverpool, to Runcorn, on the CLC and on Chat Moss, as most of the long-distance services will be removed off these lines to the new NPR line via Warrington.
Obviously not clearly defined at all at present, but I think they are also referring to Leeds, where the implication is that new tram lines across the city centre would allow certain local services to become tram or tram-trains, increasing frequency, whilst freeing up space in Leeds station for the long distance services.

 

[Ianno87]

My problem with the IRP is the new NPR line doesn't reach Yorkshire. How can extra services be added to a two track railway that already has pinchpoints especially at Leeds and Sheffield stations? They talk of 8tph Leeds- Manchester but how is there room for them in Leeds especially ?

TRU / NPR have presumably done the timetable work to show how 8tph can fit, if enough other constraints (e.g. Mirfield area) are removed.

Hence not much point in adding yet more NPR scope, if that 8tph is dictated by a "hard" limit somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2021 ==

Sounds unlikely. I think 8 is grossly excessive, and would still go with 4, just do the infrastructure work to allow them to be 10-car 80x.

No harm in providing the capability for 8, even if you choose not to (initially) use it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No harm in providing the capability for 8, even if you choose not to (initially) use it.

Yes, true, I am all for resilience builds, just not cramming those resilience builds full of trains when the current ones are so short. Due to HS2 it might make sense for the standard length to be 200m rather than 260, but nonetheless I think it should be length before frequency.

You might of course want e.g. peak extras.

 

[Glenn1969]

TRU / NPR have presumably done the timetable work to show how 8tph can fit, if enough other constraints (e.g. Mirfield area) are removed.

Hence not much point in adding yet more NPR scope, if that 8tph is dictated by a "hard" limit somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2021 ==



No harm in providing the capability for 8, even if you choose not to (initially) use it.

if I read it right it will still be a two track railway Marsden- Huddersfield and Westtown- Leeds- York. Not sure how services can maintain high speed for the 33 minute journey time to be delivered or how the fast trains and the stoppers can be pathed.

 

[Class83]

Liverpool FF route is going to need a fair bit of work to get it even close to 100mph working past Ditton. Be interested to see where the speeds / new alignment east of Warrington will go. Suspect that it will be Thelwall before any new alignment starts in which case pretty big job getting over the Ship canal as Latchford viaduct is beyond repair. Not a cheap option but see why they have done it. Reversing at the expanded Piccadilly HS2 station is again going to mean a lot of work around there. Presumably when it heads East from there it will go via Guide Bridge way?

Bradford seems to be pushed through to Leeds as an alternative to a direct route. Presumably LNER will use Interchange instead of FS after this is done.

Lots of flesh to be added to the bones announced

I think there's generally enough space to straighten it out a bit, the biggest challenge will be the merge with WCML at the Runcorn Bridge, current setup sensibly gives the WCML the straighter run, this will need to be reversed when Fiddlers Ferry becomes the express line.

 

[TheBigD]

Wakefield, Barnsley and Rotherham presumably. And the magnet that is the Meadowhall complex

Is Meadowhall still a magnet? Retail is increasingly moving online so are these giant retail complexes still a big draw for people?

 

[Glenn1969]

Is Meadowhall still a magnet? Retail is increasingly moving online so are these giant retail complexes still a big draw for people?

I think they are. As much for the leisure offer and the cinema as the shops

 

[Ianno87]

if I read it right it will still be a two track railway Marsden- Huddersfield and Westtown- Leeds- York. Not sure how services can maintain high speed for the 33 minute journey time to be delivered or how the fast trains and the stoppers can be pathed.

The stated outputs of TRU (From the NPR Statement of Case that can be found at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...ddersfield-to-westtown-dewsbury/#the-benefits) are:

[I presume NR have done some timetabling work to demonstrate all of this]

An improved journey time for Leeds – Manchester Victoria of 43-44mins. (This Scheme delivers on this journey time improvement aim through the provision of dedicated fast lines, increased fast line running speeds of 100mph and electrification throughout the extent of the Scheme route)

An improved journey time for York to Manchester Victoria of 67-69mins. (This Scheme delivers on this this journey time improvement aim through the provision of dedicated fast lines, increased fast line running speeds of 100mph and electrification throughout the extent of the Scheme route)

Capability to operate 8 ‘express services’ an hour on the route. (This Scheme delivers on this capacity improvement aim by removing the existing bottleneck through the provision of a four track railway throughout the Scheme route, removing conflicting train movements at Ravensthorpe through the provision of a grade separated junction and improving train movement capacity at Huddersfield Station through the provision of additional platform capacity and track layouts)

Capability to operate 6 ‘local services’ an hour on the route. (This Scheme delivers on this capacity improvement aim by removing the existing bottleneck through the provision of a four-track railway throughout the Scheme route so allowing for the relocation of the ‘express’ services to the new dedicated fast lines. It also delivers on this capacity improvement aim by improving the capacity of local stations at Deighton, Mirfield and Ravensthorpe)

Performance of the NTPR to be 92.5% (PPM) or higher each period. (The Scheme delivers on this reliability aim by removing the existing bottleneck through the provision of a four track railway and the electrification of the railway throughout the Scheme route, removing conflicting train movements at Ravensthorpe and providing upgraded modern railway equipment throughout the Scheme route)

Freight paths/rights to be retained as existing. (This Scheme delivers on this freight capacity aim by removing the existing bottleneck through the provision of a four-track railway throughout the Scheme route so allowing for the relocation of the ‘express’ services to the new dedicated fast lines which allows for freight to run on the slow lines with the ‘stopper’ services); and

A contribution to Network Rail’s Decarbonisation Strategy and climate policy. (This Scheme contributes to Network Rail’s strategy and policy by delivering the electrification of the railway throughout the Scheme route).

Then NPR comes along, takes that, and lumps another 10 or so minutes off the journey time between Huddersfield and Manchester via a new line, further clear of the slow trains.

 

[stephen rp]

Regarding the table of journey times from Liverpool to Manchester Airport HS (Page 116), what is the reference point in the Ringway area that is being used for comparison with the conventional network?

If the existing Airport rail/Metrolink station is being used (east side of airfield), that is cheating as the HS station I believe is going to be sited on the west side of the airfield.

The reference point that ideally should be used is the journey time to the main terminal building for a fair comparison.

West of the M56...

 

[Ianno87]

Is Meadowhall still a magnet? Retail is increasingly moving online so are these giant retail complexes still a big draw for people?

Around 2 million passengers per year suggest "Yes".

 

[Western Sunset]

It will be fascinating to see how things play out with the East Midlands capacity, and if there are meaningful enhancements at the electrification stage.

A baseline service west from Nottingham would have to include at least:
1tph Ivanhoe line
2tph fast to Leicester
3tph to Derby, one each for Burton-on-Trent, Matlock, Stoke-on-Trent

On top of this it looks like there's a desire for at least 2tph to Birmingham Curzon Street and 2tph to London Euston.

And of course current provision to Derby would be 4tph and there would be a desire to maintain that as a minimum.

I've seen no mention of the so-called Ivanhoe Line anywhere in these proposals. Has it even been suggested it'll re-open to passenger traffic yet, after all the years of wanting?

 

[Roast Veg]

I've seen no mention of the so-called Ivanhoe Line anywhere in these proposals. Has it even been suggested it'll re-open to passenger traffic yet, after all the years of wanting?

"Ivanhoe" here refers to the Leicester-Nottingham slows, as opposed to the line via Coalville.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks.
Didn't know the L'ter - Nottm slows were labelled as the Ivanhoe Line; thought it just referred to L'ter - Burton.

Be interesting to see if HS2 joins the MML going round north of Kegworth or, with a better alignment, to the south, with the actual junction near Kingston.

 

[achmelvic]

Something that's occurred to me this morning, these proposal are said to save £14bn or so, not a small amount but still not massive in government (Track and Trace is in the £37bn area for little obvious benefit) but needed due to the dire state of the public purse at the moment due thanks to Covid.

However I believe HS2 2B to Leeds wasn't going to really kick off construction for another decade or so which is surely when the big costs of it would have kicked in, so how does scrapping it now save that much?

How much would really have been spent on HS2 2B to Leeds in the next few years?

 

[urbophile]

elderly or unaccompanied youngsters

As an elderly and often unaccompanied youngster I resemble that remark!

 

[Glenn1969]

The stated outputs of TRU (From the NPR Statement of Case that can be found at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...ddersfield-to-westtown-dewsbury/#the-benefits) are:

[I presume NR have done some timetabling work to demonstrate all of this]



Then NPR comes along, takes that, and lumps another 10 or so minutes off the journey time between Huddersfield and Manchester via a new line, further clear of the slow trains.

Fine but I am pretty sure it has been descoped and is no longer 4 track west of Huddersfield or east of Westtown. Presumably to save money?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Er, he was lying.

To give him the undeserved benefit of the doubt, he might have been referring to the contactless zonal ticketing system which was announced in parallel, for conurbations in the north/midlands (PTEs).
That would be "like London".

 

[Mikey C]

Something that's occurred to me this morning, these proposal are said to save £14bn or so, not a small amount but still not massive in government (Track and Trace is in the £37bn area for little obvious benefit) but needed due to the dire state of the public purse at the moment due thanks to Covid.

However I believe HS2 2B to Leeds wasn't going to really kick off construction for another decade or so which is surely when the big costs of it would have kicked in, so how does scrapping it now save that much?

How much would really have been spent on HS2 2B to Leeds in the next few years?

£14bn is still a massive sum of money though

In a way the government is being "honest" about the Leeds leg, as they could have just deferred it so that any work on it wouldn't start for ages, with the costs being left for future governments, without getting the flak for actually cancelling it

 

[TheBigD]

Around 2 million passengers per year suggest "Yes".

Fair enough!
My local retail center seems to have lost most of its big names and is long past it's prime.

 

[javelin]

£2bn. But funded at least in part via a transport precept paid by residents. I'm in favour of that but would a majority be if it went to a referendum ?

If the reason the government is proposing the WY mass transit is to take some local trains out of Leeds station platforms to provide more room for regional rail, then it should be central government footing the bill. If the first lines are just duplication of existing heavy rail links it isn't really local transport anymore.

 

[quantinghome]

Obviously not clearly defined at all at present, but I think they are also referring to Leeds, where the implication is that new tram lines across the city centre would allow certain local services to become tram or tram-trains, increasing frequency, whilst freeing up space in Leeds station for the long distance services.

It's hard to see which Leeds local rail services would readily transfer to tram or tram-train. The destinations currently served by local trains (Skipton, Harrogate, Selby, Barnsley, Calder valley) are further than you'd want a tram-train to serve and the typical linespeeds of 75 to 90 mph are higher than any tram-train in use today. Giving a line over entirely to tram-train would slow services down and require very long tram vehicles. Mixing shorter distance frequent tram-trains with train services would force train speeds to be reduced.

 

[Ianno87]

Fine but I am pretty sure it has been descoped and is no longer 4 track west of Huddersfield or east of Westtown. Presumably to save money?

Don't think that 4-tracking was ever in any confirmed scope.

Even if it was, it's apparently not needed anyway to deliver the output.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2021 ==

Fair enough!
My local retail center seems to have lost most of its big names and is long past it's prime.

Suspect somewhere like Meadowhall will just re-invent itself with more leisure/eating in place of retail.

 

[Glenn1969]

Don't think that 4-tracking was ever in any confirmed scope.

Even if it was, it's apparently not needed anyway to deliver the output.

All your quotes from NR say "4 tracking throughout the route to deliver the output". Which is clearly not happening so how can they deliver the output ??

 

[quantinghome]

£14bn is still a massive sum of money though

In a way the government is being "honest" about the Leeds leg, as they could have just deferred it so that any work on it wouldn't start for ages, with the costs being left for future governments, without getting the flak for actually cancelling it

The government is not being honest about this at all. Their main argument, stated in parliament and in media interviews was: "HS2 will take too long, we need to level up quicker, so this is the better alternative". But looking at the actual timescales, there are no significant improvements until the 2030s, which was when HS2 was originally planned to open in full!

 

[Mikey C]

The government is not being honest about this at all. Their main argument, stated in parliament and in media interviews was: "HS2 will take too long, we need to level up quicker, so this is the better alternative". But looking at the actual timescales, there are no significant improvements until the 2030s, which was when HS2 was originally planned to open in full!

View attachment 105856

My point is that they could just have said that the full East Leg was being rescheduled in favour of other rail priorities for the north, thus avoiding the front page headlines about the cancelation

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suspect somewhere like Meadowhall will just re-invent itself with more leisure/eating in place of retail.

I don't think major clothing retailers will suffer from COVID and the move online, and clothing is the bulk of the stores in places like Meadowhall. People like the experience of clothes shopping in person - trying stuff on, looking in the mirror etc. There's been home shopping for clothing for 40+ years - the likes of the Kays catalogue - but most people don't like that and prefer to try on in person. But I agree that the food/drink offerings will increase, as that's all part of the experience of spending a day fashion shopping.

It's things like electricals that there's now basically no point in buying in person.

 

[Roast Veg]

It's hard to see which Leeds local rail services would readily transfer to tram or tram-train. The destinations currently served by local trains (Skipton, Harrogate, Selby, Barnsley, Calder valley) are further than you'd want a tram-train to serve and the typical linespeeds of 75 to 90 mph are higher than any tram-train in use today. Giving a line over entirely to tram-train would slow services down and require very long tram vehicles. Mixing shorter distance frequent tram-trains with train services would force train speeds to be reduced.

Take a look at the WYCA Mass Transit proposals, which go into plenty of detail. Although reference is made to HS2 reaching Leeds, I don't think any of the proposals are meaningfully affected by the IRP, just a few maps.

 

[Ianno87]

All your quotes from NR say "4 tracking throughout the route to deliver the output". Which is clearly not happening so how can they deliver the output ??

No, it says "4 tracking through the scheme route". By "the scheme" it means Huddersfield to Westtown, which is the scope of the TWAO that the document is in support of.