Integrated Rail plan for Midlands and North of England: Could more be done to level things up?

[WiredUp]

I find it fascinating that the Government announces an eye watering amount of capital investment in the railways of the Midlands and North, and yet the elected representatives of the population who will benefit from it are complaining! You can see why the Treasury doesn’t want to bother, and I suspect they won’t in future if promises to spend big on railways is met by a reaction like this.

Meanwhile Mr Burnham only has to look at the published HS2 maps to see that the elevated part of the station and approaches is right next to Piccadilly, and immediately after crossing Midland Street drops rapidly down into the tunnel. If anything it will significantly improve the area!

Tell me about it. The midlands and the north are getting billions thrown (well at least promised!) at them by the IRP. Parts of Anglia, Southwest England and the Southeast have had peanuts spent on them in decades - and that includes work for Thameslink and all of the Power Supply upgrades in the noughties. CARS has recently effectively been deferred for years thanks to COVID.

So whilst I can understand Dan Jarvis's complaints, Andy Burnham needs to rein his neck in. Manchester is getting a good deal both with HS2 and TRU, as well as the funding announced in October for Metrolink.

 

[QSK19]

Tell me about it. The midlands and the north are getting billions thrown (well at least promised!) at them by the IRP. Parts of Anglia, Southwest England and the Southeast have had peanuts spent on them in decades - and that includes work for Thameslink and all of the Power Supply upgrades in the noughties. CARS has recently effectively been deferred for years thanks to COVID.

So whilst I can understand Dan Jarvis's complaints, Andy Burnham needs to rein his neck in. Manchester is getting a good deal both with HS2 and TRU, as well as the funding announced in October for Metrolink.

Not withstanding the fact that GA have had a fleet of brand new trains whilst TOCs like EMR get cast offs from elsewhere which are already around 20 or more years old and/or in poor condition (156s and 360s from GA, for example!) - and even the Regional replacements will be nearly 25 years old once they’ve all eventually joined EMR. As for Thameslink, how about the introduction of 700s from new? (By the way, before anybody says it, yes EMR are of course getting brand new trains through the 810s)

At long, long last, the focus is on the North and Midlands - I am very pleased and positive about the IRP. Yes, it’s a plan and not all of it may go ahead; but £96bn is not an insignificant sum (or even if, let’s say, half the value were delivered, £48bn is still a good chunk of money spent on the North and Midlands). Personally, I’m grateful for any spend that genuinely improves the MML, whether it be £5m or £5bn

 

[irish_rail]

Not withstanding the fact that GA have had a fleet of brand new trains whilst TOCs like EMR get cast offs from elsewhere which are already around 20 or more years old and/or in poor condition (156s and 360s from GA, for example!) - and even the Regional replacements will be nearly 25 years old once they’ve all eventually joined EMR. As for Thameslink, how about the introduction of 700s from new? (By the way, before anybody says it, yes EMR are of course getting brand new trains through the 810s)

At long, long last, the focus is on the North and Midlands - I am very pleased and positive about the IRP. Yes, it’s a plan and not all of it may go ahead; but £96bn is not an insignificant sum (or even if, let’s say, half the value were delivered, £48bn is still a good chunk of money spent on the North and Midlands). Personally, I’m grateful for any spend that genuinely improves the MML, whether it be £5m or £5bn

Focus has been on the north for a LONG time. You got your new intercity trains 15 years before the south. And look at all those shiny new DMU and EMUs northern now run.

But what has the south west gained in all this time? Oh yeah 5 car 802s with seats so uncomfortable as to not being fit for purpose. And we still make do with 1970s and 1980s regional fleets . And with a population of 6 million in the south west that easily matches some of these NPR areas. But nothing for us, except Okehampton line reopening, woohoo.

 

[Ianno87]

Focus has been on the north for a LONG time. You got your new intercity trains 15 years before the south.

...and what about the previous generation of trains? HSTs on the Western in the late 1970s, versus AC Locos on the WCML from the mid-1960s.... So the GWML to be replaced was newer by about 15 years or so....

 

[BrianW]

Focus has been on the north for a LONG time. You got your new intercity trains 15 years before the south. And look at all those shiny new DMU and EMUs northern now run.

But what has the south west gained in all this time? Oh yeah 5 car 802s with seats so uncomfortable as to not being fit for purpose. And we still make do with 1970s and 1980s regional fleets . And with a population of 6 million in the south west that easily matches some of these NPR areas. But nothing for us, except Okehampton line reopening, woohoo.

The current Secretary of State is showing great interest in the South West, and other parts of England, as demonstrated in this reply to a question from an 'outlying' MP, Dr Andrew Murrison, MP for South West Wiltshire (Con):

My right hon. Friend is right that every decision has a trade-off, which is why it is important that we think about the country as a whole. He will be pleased to hear that I was down in the south-west yesterday using South Western Railway, and I appreciate the importance of that service. I will ensure that he meets the Rail Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), to discuss his specific concerns.

And this to the Member for Hyndburn (Con) which in The North and neglected: It is true—I want to be completely up front—that not every single town, city and village in the country will benefit from the plan, but this is not the end of it. We still have the rail network enhancements pipeline—the RNEP—which my hon. Friend the Rail Minister is working on, and, of course, many other programmes, including Restoring Your Railway, which will bring further opportunities.

Integrated Rail Plan: North and Midlands - Hansard - UK Parliament

Hansard record of the item : ' Integrated Rail Plan: North and Midlands' on Thursday 18 November 2021.

hansard.parliament.uk

 

[A S Leib]

Plus everybody in Greater London, Kent, Sussex and parts of Hertfordshire, Cambridgeshire and Essex who have a dramatically reduced journey time to reach Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland via Euston and HS2

I don't think there's anywhere in Hertfordshire or Essex which would have a longer journey time to the West Midlands or North West via HS2; Peterborough's 1 tph taking nearly two hours to Birmingham, 1 tph taking 2 hours or a change in Doncaster and a slightly faster time to Sheffield and around three hours from Manchester; it's already faster to travel via London from Norwich and Ipswich to Manchester than it is to get the direct service or changing at Ely.

So overall around twenty million people in the greater southeast would benefit from faster journey times to Birmingham and the northwest, and at least fifteen million would be able to get to the northeast significantly faster.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I complete agree with this

Meanwhile Mr Burnham only has to look at the published HS2 maps to see that the elevated part of the station and approaches is right next to Piccadilly, and immediately after crossing Midland Street drops rapidly down into the tunnel. If anything it will significantly improve the area!

 

[matacaster]

Oh right so it benefits a few dormitory towns between London and Birmingham like Milton Keynes, how on earth is that comparable with the lavish spending on the north? The vast vast vast majority of the south gets absolutely nothing from HS2.

Forget about the railway, London benefits from HS2 because more commuters can come from much farther afield (such as Manchester and Birmingham). Far from assisting the north HS2 will tend to suck people in from the provinces, thus denuding many places of the best workers. For Scots (and people in south west) the journey times to London and Birmingham disuade people at the moment, but I bet it's really only commuters who are going to complain about the current 2 hours to London from Leeds. Far more people up north worry about the snails pace between places which are really close like Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

Focus has been on the north for a LONG time. You got your new intercity trains 15 years before the south. And look at all those shiny new DMU and EMUs northern now run.

But what has the south west gained in all this time? Oh yeah 5 car 802s with seats so uncomfortable as to not being fit for purpose. And we still make do with 1970s and 1980s regional fleets . And with a population of 6 million in the south west that easily matches some of these NPR areas. But nothing for us, except Okehampton line reopening, woohoo.

You missed out the 'totally insufficient number' of shiny new DMUs. Many are two car. This is a repeat of transpennine having sardine conditions for circa 10 years simple due to lack of units. This has thankfully fixed at last, but didn't require vast investment in track, stations or signalling, simply buying more units.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

Focus has been on the north for a LONG time. You got your new intercity trains 15 years before the south. And look at all those shiny new DMU and EMUs northern now run.

But what has the south west gained in all this time? Oh yeah 5 car 802s with seats so uncomfortable as to not being fit for purpose. And we still make do with 1970s and 1980s regional fleets . And with a population of 6 million in the south west that easily matches some of these NPR areas. But nothing for us, except Okehampton line reopening, woohoo.

You missed out the 'totally insufficient number' of shiny new DMUs. Many are two car. This is a repeat of transpennine having sardine conditions for circa 10 years simple due to lack of units. This has thankfully fixed at last, but didn't require vast investment in track, stations or signalling, simply buying more units.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Back to the topic:

Yes, build a brand new station in Liverpool and run 400m services between it, Manchester & Birmingham!

Electrify Hull, Halifax, Harrogate and anywhere beginning with the letter H!

Do something that Transport for the North wasn't proposing such as give places like Otley & Wetherby a rail link, should be popular too!

 

[yorksrob]

But what has the south west gained in all this time? Oh yeah 5 car 802s with seats so uncomfortable as to not being fit for purpose. And we still make do with 1970s and 1980s regional fleets . And with a population of 6 million in the south west that easily matches some of these NPR areas. But nothing for us, except Okehampton line reopening, woohoo.

To be fair, Yorkshire still has large legacy fleets whilst we got our Azumas later than you (except on the MML where they withdrew half the IC fleet years before they've built is replacement).

(Not saying that the SW Doesn't need investment as well - Okehampton should just be the start !)

 

[Senex]

Forget about the railway, London benefits from HS2 because more commuters can come from much farther afield (such as Manchester and Birmingham). Far from assisting the north HS2 will tend to suck people in from the provinces, thus denuding many places of the best workers. For Scots (and people in south west) the journey times to London and Birmingham disuade people at the moment, but I bet it's really only commuters who are going to complain about the current 2 hours to London from Leeds. Far more people up north worry about the snails pace between places which are really close like Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

It also makes it easier for government to justify staying centralised in London with much of the civil service and expecting the mere provincials always to come to them, for business and commerce to stay centralised in London where it has tended to congregat eover the last century or so to the disadvantage of the great provincial cities, for national museums, galleries, concert halls, and cultural life in general to stay in London. If it's so easy and so quick to get to and from London, then that supports the arguments for keeping as much as possible centralised in London. This at a time when other countries are genuinely trying to decentralise — but it so suits our governments to keep a tight hand on all the strings amd continue in practice to weaken the powers of regions and districts.

 

[yorksrob]

Back to the topic:

Yes, build a brand new station in Liverpool and run 400m services between it, Manchester & Birmingham!

Electrify Hull, Halifax, Harrogate and anywhere beginning with the letter H!

Do something that Transport for the North wasn't proposing such as give places like Otley & Wetherby a rail link, should be popular too!

Yes, this and lengthen more of the trains. There's still too much of the two carriage railway going on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2021 ==

It also makes it easier for government to justify staying centralised in London with much of the civil service and expecting the mere provincials always to come to them, for business and commerce to stay centralised in London where it has tended to congregat eover the last century or so to the disadvantage of the great provincial cities, for national museums, galleries, concert halls, and cultural life in general to stay in London. If it's so easy and so quick to get to and from London, then that supports the arguments for keeping as much as possible centralised in London. This at a time when other countries are genuinely trying to decentralise — but it so suits our governments to keep a tight hand on all the strings amd continue in practice to weaken the powers of regions and districts.

Yes, this is part of my worry as well, with Northern cities potentially becoming just another dormitory area of London.

I don't really see much benefit in Leeds being less than the 2+ hours away from the smoke than it already is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back to the topic:

Yes, build a brand new station in Liverpool and run 400m services between it, Manchester & Birmingham!

Electrify Hull, Halifax, Harrogate and anywhere beginning with the letter H!

Do something that Transport for the North wasn't proposing such as give places like Otley & Wetherby a rail link, should be popular too!

I'm all for lengthening, but 400m is excessive. 200m is a decent standard regional express length. Liverpool will be getting 2tph of 200m to London via HS2, and there appears to be capacity for a third (slightly slower, but could be priced a bit lower too) as a portion of the Macclesfield if needs be; it is unlikely it will ever be necessary to go above that given that it's close to three times current capacity.

Keep those services in Lime St and do the work to join the City Lines to the Northern Line at Central, as well; as changing Central to wider side platforms by hollowing out the parallel header tunnel (two islands aren't necessary; you could easily have 20-30tphpd capacity on two tracks provided nothing reversed there, as per St Pancras Thameslink). It would be a similar cost to a new station, possibly cheaper, would provide much more local benefit and would solve the passenger capacity issues with Central that exist now.

Absolutely electrify everything, nationally. The Swiss managed it.

 

[A0]

Forget about the railway, London benefits from HS2 because more commuters can come from much farther afield (such as Manchester and Birmingham).

I think you're overplaying the case on long distance commuting.

A season ticket from Coventry to London starts at £ 567 /month - and that's LNW / WMT only.

An any permitted is £ 975 / month.

The latter is over £ 10k / a year - that's on income which has been taxed - and probably a 40% taxpayer at that - so it's the equivalent of £ 20k salary to make it worthwhile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There won't be much long distance commuting on HS2, as you say because of the cost. What there will be is people who travel in one day a week, otherwise working from home, and the likes. HS2 certainly enables that, but to be honest that will mean those people spending in the local economy with potentially higher disposable incomes, so where's the issue?

I suppose it could mean higher house prices in well-connected beauty spots.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I'm all for lengthening, but 400m is excessive. 200m is a decent standard regional express length.

I'm not sure on my opinion for the optimum service length but since HS2 will pass between Liverpool & Manchester it's a pity Liverpool will be limited to services that are forced to split after leaving London.

If Liverpool had capability for 400m services then at least services could operate in a triangle going London Liverpool - Manchester and visa versa, removing the need to split/join.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately if 35km of extra line was built between Marsden and Leeds then Leeds almost all our capacity issues on North-South lines would be solved without the need for enormously expensive "upgrades" of questionable practicality on the ECML - which still don't actually solve them!

We're paying for 90% of a high speed network and getting half the benefit or less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure on my opinion for the optimum service length but since HS2 will pass between Liverpool & Manchester it's a pity Liverpool will be limited to services that are forced to split after leaving London.

If Liverpool had capability for 400m services then at least services could operate in a triangle going London Liverpool - Manchester and visa versa, removing the need to split/join.

That would I think break down in that the two cities have different frequencies - Manchester will have a straight three per hour (which I suspect will end up running as 200m some of the time with 400m only in the peaks, but Manchester does have a larger hinterland).

It "might be nice" if it did have 400m capability, but it is simply not necessary as the demand is not there and is not likely to be there either because it has such a small catchment. There is a long list of rail projects on Merseyside that would be of much more benefit for the cost, such as sorting out Liverpool Central and adding more services to the 8tph of terminators there.