Alstom and Hitachi now announced as winners of HS2 rolling stock supplier contract

[Bletchleyite]

Strewth, 200mph in an IET. LMAO!

Presumably a HS2 ticket would also include a complimentary voucher for a change of underwear. Blimey.

350s ride considerably more smoothly on the WCML fasts at 110 than on the slows at a much lower speed, so much of that is down to track quality.

 

[tomuk]

I see from the press release that the bogies will be maintained at Crewe. Is this Crewe Works (off the Chester line) and will the siding be reinstated and electrified to allow the new trains to visit for a bogie-change?

I wouldn't of thought so. Bogies dropped at the new HS2 depot at Washwood Heath in Birmingham then zipped up the M6 to Crewe by lorry.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

The Times are reporting Alstom and hitachi are going to be announced as the winners of the HS2 contract.

Alstom and Hitachi win HS2 train bid

The government and HS2 are on the verge of announcing that a £2.8 billion contract for the most prestigious train manufacturing project in the history of Britain’s railways is to be awarded to Derby’s historic Litchurch Lane works and Hitachi’s much newer factory at Newton Aycliffe in Co Durham.The

www.thetimes.co.uk

Unfortunate really. Poor decision if it is to be the case.

Given the ongoing problems with Hitachi I am a little surprised that any more orders are forthcoming until the cause is definitively tracked down and remedied. If the bodyshells are the same dimensions as the 800 series we can look forward to more misaligned seating. There is no excuse for this. If the bay dimension is 1.9 metres (the "Golden dimension", then most of the seats and windows will align without loss in capacity. This is the bay spacing in mark 1 and mark 2 stock, the BREL International Train of 1986, and classes 175 and 180.

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If you read the spec, unless they get to deviate from it it looks like the units will be very comfortable. Things like seat quality, very generous spacing and window alignment in Standard are all specified.

Have you go a reference please?

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Thanks, is that stated anywhere (or inside info? )

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All initial HS2 stock is to be classic compatible for maximum flexibility. Which makes sense, as the only real gain from building UIC gauge is if you're going double deck (the extra width is quite small, and the extra height not all that useful), and it would remove the ability to run them elsewhere, e.g. to divert via the WCML if necessary, as well as flexibility of what to operate on which bit. Plus you're going to need them all for Phase 1 anyway.

It's a large fleet, so there won't be any "off the shelf economies of scale". You only really get that when buying small fleets (and not from Stadler).

If they are to the UK loading gauge, will there need to be extending steps on the HS2 platforms?

 

[stratford]

If these are Zefiro based trains, and with Alstom selling its stake in Zefiro to Hitachi by early next year will this Hitachi-Alstom join venture become just Hitachi?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Have you go a reference please?

Train Technical Specification (PDF)

If they are to the UK loading gauge, will there need to be extending steps on the HS2 platforms?

The Train Technical Specification requires movable steps, which are detailed on pages 141-142.

 

[tomuk]

Given the ongoing problems with Hitachi I am a little surprised that any more orders are forthcoming until the cause is definitively tracked down and remedied. If the bodyshells are the same dimensions as the 800 series we can look forward to more misaligned seating. There is no excuse for this. If the bay dimension is 1.9 metres (the "Golden dimension", then most of the seats and windows will align without loss in capacity. This is the bay spacing in mark 1 and mark 2 stock, the BREL International Train of 1986, and classes 175 and 180.

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Have you go a reference please?

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If they are to the UK loading gauge, will there need to be extending steps on the HS2 platforms?

They are nothing to do with the 800 series. They are based on Hitachi/Bombardier Zefiro like the Italian Frecciarossa 1000.

The published technical spec is:

The One-Space Layout shall provide the following seat pitches, i.e. the distance from the
rearmost point of one seat to the rearmost point of the next seat:
 airline seating - 895mm; and
 bay seating - 2030mm.

For all Windows on a Vehicle, except those at the end of each Vehicle, the longitudinal distance between the start of one Window and the start of the next shall be 1790mm.

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If these are Zefiro based trains, and with Alstom selling its stake in Zefiro to Hitachi by early next year will this Hitachi-Alstom join venture become just Hitachi?

To allow the takeover of Bombardier the EU forced Alstom to divest the Zefiro platform and some other platforms. The Hitachi acquisition is part of this. Going forward it is clear that the TGV\AGV\Avelia family is Alstoms's baby so how much/long Alstom continues in the JV depends on, keeping the EU happy, the financials, the logistics of the manufacturing footprint and the logic of supplying one of your competitors.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Given the ongoing problems with Hitachi I am a little surprised that any more orders are forthcoming until the cause is definitively tracked down and remedied.

You'd think that'd be the case, which makes me suspicious of awarding hitachi the contract. Makes you suspect that someone at the DfT may be in bed with hitachi.

The published technical spec is:

So alignment goes down the toilet. It looks crap but at this stage, they should just go with something similar to the Shinkansen and have airline style windows.

 

[mmh]

Wonderful. But don't complain about lost UK jobs if other Governments respond by reciprocating when ordering UK designed products or indeed choose British last in response...

I would hope they largely do just that, and many countries largely do. France and Germany are not reticent about buying their own...

 

[Bletchleyite]

So alignment goes down the toilet. It looks crap but at this stage, they should just go with something similar to the Shinkansen and have airline style windows.

Um, 895 * 2 = 1790. If it is mostly airline seats, then that's going to be pretty close to fully aligned, though the bays muck it up a bit.

 

[PG]

Strewth, 200mph in an IET. LMAO!

Presumably a HS2 ticket would also include a complimentary voucher for a change of underwear. Blimey.

Could be worse - if CAF had got the contract, they'd need to include free dental treatment to replace lost fillings...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If these are Zefiro based trains, and with Alstom selling its stake in Zefiro to Hitachi by early next year will this Hitachi-Alstom join venture become just Hitachi?

Alstom will assemble the trains at Derby using bogies from their Crewe facility, with major new investments at both sites.
So they are clearly not planning to exit the JV.

 

[tomuk]

Alstom will assemble the trains at Derby using bogies from their Crewe facility, with major new investments at both sites.
So they are clearly not planning to exit the JV.

Is it 'major new investment' though? Assembling trains at a site already assembling trains and building bogies at a site that already refurbishes them.
Crewe is an awful lots smaller than it once was. Another 300 houses being built in addition to those already built, the pub, McDonalds and the older Morrisons.

https://vimeo.com/529274620
Bombardier Transportation site, Crewe

 

[stratford]

Alstom will assemble the trains at Derby using bogies from their Crewe facility, with major new investments at both sites.
So they are clearly not planning to exit the JV.

Yeah, just read the EC judgement (or tried to) and it seems the partnership can continue because Hitachi couldn't go it alone for this one. But in the future Hitachi now own the Zefiro V300 IP so would go alone for future orders.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/mergers/cases1/20215/m9779_2816_2.pdf

 

[Doomotron]

Being made by Hitachi (cracks)

Considering that wasn't actually Hitachi's fault, that's quite a cheap shot to make.

 

[The Planner]

So how many HGV movements between Newton Aycliffe and Derby to satisfy the political need to keep both plants busy, when both plants are equally capable of both interior fitout and structural welding?

Not to mention that I doubt there will be a gauge cleared rail route from HS2 to Litchurch Lane so it will mean yet more HGV moves to get them onto the HS2 network. But that's fine, because the government isn't trying to reduce HGV traffic at all. Honest.

Unless of course they're all classic compatible, then you just need a 60 year old diesel loco to haul them from Litchurch Lane to Birmingham, via whatever insane location the link into the classic network will be.

They're all to be classic compatible and there'll be a HS2 connection at Washwood Heath so direct access off the Derby - Birmingham route, not far to have to drag them by rail to HS2 at all.

I agree about how ridiculous it is that these'll all be moved by road between Newton Aycliffe and Derby, although it's not as bad as the IEP contract where they were all moved by sea from Japan to Newton Aycliffe!

Drag them from Derby to Crewe as they will be using the WCML for mileage runs anyway. Get them on to HS2 at Handsacre off the WCML. What is insane about that?

That connection at Washwood Heath is temporary to get the long welded rail onto the trace. It could well be gone by the time the stock is ready.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Considering that wasn't actually Hitachi's fault, that's quite a cheap shot to make.

We don't know if it is or isn't. The awarding of this contract to a main supplier who is undergoing issues of unknown origin and whilst a legal battle is being fought in court over said contract, is controversial at best and incompetent (and maybe illegal, although allegedly the court must've okayed it) at worst.

 

[mmh]

Drag them from Derby to Crewe as they will be using the WCML for mileage runs anyway. Get them on to HS2 at Handsacre off the WCML. What is insane about that?

That connection at Washwood Heath is temporary to get the long welded rail onto the trace. It could well be gone by the time the stock is ready.

To be fair, their concerns are representative of how HS2 discussion often goes:

- We need a new line! The WCML and ECML are full!
- OK, let's build a new line and the trains for it.
- Why aren't you moving these new trains over the WCML and ECML? Disgraceful!

 

[Purple Orange]

The Manchester-Birmingham service doesn't go in until Phase 2a. Though isn't that potentially going to be a NPR service to Newcastle now?

But that's such a small part of the overall stock requirement that you'd think they'd just order it in one go and rotate them round to cover lower usage.

Isn’t it for ~50 trains? That surely cover all HS2 services, but the NPR will probably need a new order. The Birmingham-Manchester will need to start off as purely HS2 given the time lag between phase 2b and NPR, but it could be that the service could start before the Manchester-Marsden line is built if there is s temporary junction to an electrified Guide Bridge line.

 

[Horizon22]

So 8 on most trains, as most trains will run as a 400m double set. That's a doubling of now.

Do many people want to take bicycles on InterCity journeys? Surely it's more of a regional-train thing.

Not sure about that. Lots of keen cyclists will go around the country for trips to places like Peak / Lake District / Scotland.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Indeed. GWR HSTs had six bike spaces and they were very regularly over capacity.

 

[Roast Veg]

Posters suggesting that companies should be completely excluded based on historic performance have clearly never been involved in contract awards. That's how you end up with litigation against you...

How this’ll work in reality with Alstom selling their share of the Zefiro family to Hitachi is unclear.

It will almost certainly work exactly as described. Even if all the intellectual property transfers to Hitachi Alstom can do the work under licence.

Not to mention that I doubt there will be a gauge cleared rail route from HS2 to Litchurch Lane so it will mean yet more HGV moves to get them onto the HS2 network. But that's fine, because the government isn't trying to reduce HGV traffic at all. Honest.

Unless of course they're all classic compatible

You've answered your own question. Classic compatible only for the foreseeable, as has been known for years.

So are we effectively talking about an 8-car 80x with the bodyshells shortened to 25m (to give exactly 200m for an 8 car train), something the platform already supports, a pointier nose and a faster top speed?

Nope, as mentioned this has to be a Zefiro. The Hitachi press release refers to the "joint platform" which can't be an A-train.

#MML

Timing is perfect.

You heard it here first.

Actually I heard it from you on another thread first, but who's counting. Assuming there's life left in them I agree with you!

 

[BayPaul]

Posters suggesting that companies should be completely excluded based on historic performance have clearly never been involved in contract awards. That's how you end up with litigation against you...

Also, given the list of suppliers that said posters always suggest should be excluded, it effectively would mean that tendering anything would be pointless and Siemens should just be given everything, as every other manufacturer has something that's an issue (arguably, of course, Siemens do to) ! That's not necessarily a way to ensure good value for money...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My prediction is the 390s will be needed for some sort of service launch on HS2 as the Hitachi/Alstom Derby combination will see seriously late delivery.

Much as I love 390s, what an underwhelming open it would be to launch 125mph trains on a 225mph (formerly planned 250mph) railway!

(140mph requires in-cab signalling that they don’t have and even if they did it’s a huge difference from 225mph still)

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Reuters are reporting this morning that Siemens have confirmed to them that the report first published in the Daily Telegraph is true, and that it has "scrapped a legal bid to halt the award of a $2.64-billion high-speed train project in Britain to rivals Alstom and Hitachi"; however, it is still to pursue aa claim for damages, but it has declined to say how much this will be for.

It is interesting that a number of press reports have stated that the design is based upon Japan's bullet trains, but my understanding is that it is based upon the trains jointly built by Bombardier and Hitachi in Italy for FS; FS must be reasonably pleased with those trains as they have placed repeat orders, and - as part owners of Avanti - they may have had some input into the tender evaluation process.

It will be interesting to see details of the proposed design and a list of suppliers/sub-contractors; it has been reported that a Japanese design of pantograph is to be used, which looks bad for Brecknell Willis who have been major suppliers for British trains for many years

 

[43096]

It is interesting that a number of press reports have stated that the design is based upon Japan's bullet trains, but my understanding is that it is based upon the trains jointly built by Bombardier and Hitachi in Italy for FS; FS must be reasonably pleased with those trains as they have placed repeat orders, and - as part owners of Avanti - they may have had some input into the tender evaluation process.

I wouldn’t place much store by the bullet train stuff: it’s likely lazy journalism equating Hitachi = Japanese = bullet train. It was the same with the 395s and IEP.

 

[Roast Veg]

Also, given the list of suppliers that said posters always suggest should be excluded, it effectively would mean that tendering anything would be pointless and Siemens should just be given everything, as every other manufacturer has something that's an issue (arguably, of course, Siemens do to) ! That's not necessarily a way to ensure good value for money...

My money is on the Siemens bid being too expensive, and the CAF and AGV bids not delivering on as many of the contractual assurances for UK job creation as the Zefiro bid. The double whammy of Newton Aycliffe and Litchurch Lane (and Crewe I suppose) will also allow the joint venture to make a few more guarantees about an existing UK workforce, which makes entry into service faster on paper, and likely also cheaper.

Shhh. I’m deploying the tactic of saying something made up several times on different threads, in the hope that it will eventually became accepted as truth. It seemed to work for the 45th President.

Pretendolino until you pendolino? Not as catchy as "fake news".

Reuters are reporting this morning that Siemens have confirmed to them that the report first published in the Daily Telegraph is true, and that it has "scrapped a legal bid to halt the award of a $2.64-billion high-speed train project in Britain to rivals Alstom and Hitachi"; however, it is still to pursue aa claim for damages, but it has declined to say how much this will be for.

This is just par for the course for any rolling stock contract award - Siemens want some of the money they spent on the bid back. Unfortunately every time it happens it makes the press, which damages the public perception of how these things are run. Then people start suggesting that it's ok to exclude a bidder because they don't like them!

It is interesting that a number of press reports have stated that the design is based upon Japan's bullet trains, but my understanding is that it is based upon the trains jointly built by Bombardier and Hitachi in Italy for FS; FS must be reasonably pleased with those trains as they have placed repeat orders, and - as part owners of Avanti - they may have had some input into the tender evaluation process.

I don't think there's any question that the product offered will be from the Zefiro family of trains. With the exit of Siemens and Talgo from the running, it was a straight choice between the Oaris, the AGV, and the option selected. Contrary to all the doom and gloom upthread, I think they made the right choice!

 

[LOL The Irony]

It will be interesting to see details of the proposed design and a list of suppliers/sub-contractors; it has been reported that a Japanese design of pantograph is to be used, which looks bad for Brecknell Willis who have been

I do wonder why Alstom didn't suggest using the Favieley CX, unless they don't want hitachi getting their mits on trade secrets. The head on Shinkansen trains look rather spindly (which is due to the strict noise rules and close proximity of lines to population areas) so it is to be seen how they handle our catenary on the classic routes.

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My money is on the Siemens bid being too expensive

Buy cheap, buy twice, as the saying goes.

With the exit of Siemens and Talgo from the running, it was a straight choice between the Oaris, the AGV, and the option selected.

Siemens only just left. Also the AGV was going to be highly modified and I believe would've lost its jacobs bogies.

 

[Roast Veg]

Buy cheap, buy twice, as the saying goes.

The contract specified parameters for reliability and performance. In so far as they can, all bidders will have attempted to prove that their bids will satisfy those parameters. As long as those awarding the contract are happy, it then comes down to other parameters like price. The Zefiro won't exactly be cheap, or I'd have bought one myself!

Siemens only just left. Also the AGV was going to be highly modified and I believe would've lost its jacobs bogies.

Siemes announced their litigation in October - it was discussed on this forum at the time. Without reading it, I think jacobs bogies were explicitly banned in the spec. Back in 2016 Alstom suggested a tilting stock, but they almost certainly dropped that on cost grounds, since it would only have been a "sweetener".

 

[quantinghome]

The Zefiro won't exactly be cheap, or I'd have bought one myself!

Indeed - £2bn for 432 vehicles is far from cheap.

 

[Gareth]

We don't know if it is or isn't. The awarding of this contract to a main supplier who is undergoing issues of unknown origin and whilst a legal battle is being fought in court over said contract, is controversial at best and incompetent (and maybe illegal, although allegedly the court must've okayed it) at worst.

Nah, Hitachi make cracking trains.