Alstom and Hitachi now announced as winners of HS2 rolling stock supplier contract

[Mollman]

Reuters are reporting this morning that Siemens have confirmed to them that the report first published in the Daily Telegraph is true, and that it has "scrapped a legal bid to halt the award of a $2.64-billion high-speed train project in Britain to rivals Alstom and Hitachi"; however, it is still to pursue aa claim for damages, but it has declined to say how much this will be for.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/siemens-scraps-legal-challenge-british-063519433.html

ZURICH (Reuters) - Siemens has scrapped a legal bid to halt the award of a $2.64-billion high-speed train project in Britain to rivals Alstom and Hitachi.

The German engineering company will not seek an injunction after losing the contract to build 54 trains for the HS2 high-speed line from London to Birmingham, a spokesman told Reuters, confirming a report in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

Siemens is still pursuing a claim for damages, the spokesman said late on Thursday, but declined to say how much.


Transport Minister Grant Shapps awarded the final contract for the HS2 trains and a 12-year maintenance contract to Alstom of France and Hitachi of Japan on Thursday in a deal worth two billion pounds ($2.64 billion).

Siemens, which had also bid, had already complained that Hitachi and Alstom had only been able to make the lowest offer because they had not kept to the tender conditions.

"Of course we are disappointed," its spokesman said. "We still have questions about the procedure."

The Munich-based company still hopes for further HS2 orders in areas such as signaling technology and was wary of incurring costs from delaying the project had its legal challenge failed.

The 54 trains will travel at speeds of up to 225 mph (360 kph) to Birmingham and eventually Manchester.

Hitachi and Alstom plan to build them at three plants in Britain, safeguarding or creating 2500 jobs.

($1=0.7566 pounds)

(Reporting by Alexander Huebner; Writing by John Revill; Editing by Clarence Fernandez)

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Nah, Hitachi make cracking trains.

I see what you did there.

 

[Gareth]

And well done you!

 

[swt_passenger]

I see from the press release that the bogies will be maintained at Crewe. Is this Crewe Works (off the Chester line) and will the siding be reinstated and electrified to allow the new trains to visit for a bogie-change?

No, bogies are easily transferable items. The exchange is made at the normal maintenance depot, the bogie maintenance will then be done in a specialist facility, as is usual with other fleets.

 

[gingertom]

What's the objection to Jacobs bogies? Using them gives the ability to reduce the train weight by about 30%, so needs less power. Surely has to be a consideration with climate change / environmental concerns?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What's the objection to Jacobs bogies? Using them gives the ability to reduce the train weight by about 30%, so needs less power. Surely has to be a consideration with climate change / environmental concerns?

Greater axle loading for one thing- fewer axles = more mass supported on each wheelset.

 

[swt_passenger]

I searched the thread and couldn’t find a link to the actual DfT announcement, so here goes. Note gratuitous use of the term “bullet trains”:

Britain’s new generation of super-fast ‘bullet trains’ – capable of speeds of more than 200mph – will be designed and built here in the UK, promising massive investment in the north-east and Midlands and thousands of new jobs.

Announced today (9 December 2021) by the government, the state-of-the-art high-speed trains will be built by Hitachi/Alstom JV at their factories in Derby, Crewe and County Durham in a major deal set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK.

Government awards HS2 rolling stock contract

Next generation of Britain’s high-speed bullet trains reaching speeds of over 200mph to be built on home soil.

www.gov.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed - £2bn for 432 vehicles is far from cheap.

The £2 billion includes maintenance by Hitachi-Alstom for 12 years, so similar to the original Pendolino contract with Alstom.
Which makes it difficult to work out a per-vehicle purchase price.

 

[quantinghome]

The £2 billion includes maintenance by Hitachi-Alstom for 12 years, so similar to the original Pendolino contract with Alstom.
Which makes it difficult to work out a per-vehicle purchase price.

Surely there must be a rule of thumb for a % breakdown to the nearest 10%?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely there must be a rule of thumb for a % breakdown to the nearest 10%?

As a 360km/h classic-compatible train, what are you going to compare it with?
They are not off-the-shelf EMUs, and we don't know what was in the other bids for a comparison.
The only vaguely similar procurement was for the original TMST (Eurostar class 373, a UK-compatible version of the 300km/h TGV), but that was 30 years ago in a different era.
Neither DfT nor Hitachi-Alstom will want to disclose their unit pricing.
Roger Ford usually comes up with an educated guess.

 

[TRAX]

Let’s hope Alstom can jam some Avelia expertise in the train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Let’s hope Alstom can jam some Avelia expertise in the train.

You mean like the trademark table-lamps in First Class?
Common to most TGVs, Pendolinos and derivatives (don't know about Avelia).
Apparently it will take another 2.5 years to finalise the interiors of the HS2 trains (involving H-A, HS2 Ltd and Avanti as prospective operator).

 

[stratford]

Apparently it will take another 2.5 years to finalise the interiors of the HS2 trains (involving H-A, HS2 Ltd and Avanti as prospective operator).

Will Avanti have a say if they are losing the franchise before these are introduced?

 

[Bald Rick]

Will Avanti have a say if they are losing the franchise before these are introduced?

Yes - the “West Coast Partnership”half of the franchise was specifically designed to do this sort of thing

 

[Roast Veg]

Yes - the “West Coast Partnership”half of the franchise was specifically designed to do this sort of thing

Hence the Trenitalia involvement in the franchise. Whilst I don't believe First-Trenitalia will have specifically "gamed" this to get the product most like the existing Italian one, there is an interesting alternate history where Stagecoach/SNCF ended up with the AGV - as well as every other possible combination!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will Avanti have a say if they are losing the franchise before these are introduced?

First/Trenitalia are said to be negotiating a new ICWC contract for up to 10 years.

 

[Doomotron]

We don't know if it is or isn't. The awarding of this contract to a main supplier who is undergoing issues of unknown origin and whilst a legal battle is being fought in court over said contract, is controversial at best and incompetent (and maybe illegal, although allegedly the court must've okayed it) at worst.

Yes, we do. Steel is steel, and bad quality steel is the fault of the steel manufacturer, not the buyer of the steel. Unless the design put extra pressure on the steel (which is unlikely as the 385 is a different design yet still had some cracks) or the maintenance of the trains was poor (which is unlikely to cause mass failure of the bodyshells) it's the supplier's fault.

 

[DanNCL]

Yes, we do. Steel is steel, and bad quality steel is the fault of the steel manufacturer, not the buyer of the steel. Unless the design put extra pressure on the steel (which is unlikely as the 385 is a different design yet still had some cracks) or the maintenance of the trains was poor (which is unlikely to cause mass failure of the bodyshells) it's the supplier's fault.

The cracks are unrelated to the Kobe Steel scandal, although Hitachi did purchase aluminium from them which was used on the 80xs. The cracks are believed to be as a result of Hitachi specifying a grade of aluminium for the components in question that wasn’t a good enough grade for the job. That’s Hitachi’s fault, they should have specified the right grade of aluminium.

 

[quantinghome]

As a 360km/h classic-compatible train, what are you going to compare it with?
They are not off-the-shelf EMUs, and we don't know what was in the other bids for a comparison.
The only vaguely similar procurement was for the original TMST (Eurostar class 373, a UK-compatible version of the 300km/h TGV), but that was 30 years ago in a different era.
Neither DfT nor Hitachi-Alstom will want to disclose their unit pricing.
Roger Ford usually comes up with an educated guess.

Good points. We'll see what Capitaine Deltique has to say.

 

[greyman42]

So are the bodyshells going to be manufactured at Newton Aycliffe?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So are the bodyshells going to be manufactured at Newton Aycliffe?

From the press release:

Hitachi Rail recently invested £8.5m in a bespoke welding and painting facilities at its Newton Aycliffe factory, taking its total investment up to £110m. The site, which opened in 2015 and employs around 700 staff, was a major boost for manufacturing in the region and returned train building to the North East. The new welding facility will carry out vehicle body assembly and fit out, before each one is transported to the East Midlands.

 

[hwl]

What's the objection to Jacobs bogies?

On 25m coaches and classic compatible?

You also increase track wear and reduce the usable seating area with in an overall 200m train envelope.

Using them gives the ability to reduce the train weight by about 30%, so needs less power. Surely has to be a consideration with climate change / environmental concerns?

You soon run out of axles as you can wither put traction motors on them or 4x inboard discs to cover if regen/rheostatic braking fails.

Jacobs were explicitly excluded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

As a 360km/h classic-compatible train, what are you going to compare it with?
They are not off-the-shelf EMUs, and we don't know what was in the other bids for a comparison.
The only vaguely similar procurement was for the original TMST (Eurostar class 373, a UK-compatible version of the 300km/h TGV), but that was 30 years ago in a different era.
Neither DfT nor Hitachi-Alstom will want to disclose their unit pricing.
Roger Ford usually comes up with an educated guess.

The Italian Zefiro's are actually classic compatible for the Italian classic network which was very good head start for GB and HS2...
The Italian initial order. follow on order and Spanish Order prices will give a good hint.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

Let’s hope Alstom can jam some Avelia expertise in the train.

From the third placed bid?
Zefiro was what was bid

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The Italian Zefiro's are actually classic compatible for the Italian classic network which was very good head start for GB and HS2...

No more of a head start than for the AGV or the Velaro. AFAIK the UK is the only country in the world where high speed lines have the same track gauge but a more generous loading gauge.

 

[LOL The Irony]

No more of a head start than for the AGV or the Velaro. AFAIK the UK is the only country in the world where high speed lines have the same track gauge but a more generous loading gauge.

Japan has some standard gauge lines and the Shinkansen has a bigger loading gauge than those.

 

[hwl]

No more of a head start than for the AGV or the Velaro. AFAIK the UK is the only country in the world where high speed lines have the same track gauge but a more generous loading gauge.

You might want to check the Italian Zefiro dimensions.... especially the height. Some what under UIC.

Similarly Siemens used the Turkish Velaro as starting point for similar reasons.

Hence it was always going to be two horse race between Bombardier-Hitachi and Siemens.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Was width rather than height the reason?

ICE 3: 3.89 m high, 2.95 m wide

Velaro TR: 4343 mm high, 2924 mm wide

Frecciarossa 1000: 4080 mm high, 2924 mm wide

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Plenty of time to get all the issues sorted. From Dof T announcement

The first train is expected to roll off the production line around 2027. Following a rigorous process of testing and commissioning, the first passengers are expected to be carried between 2029 and 2033

 

[gingertom]

You also increase track wear and reduce the usable seating area with in an overall 200m train envelope.


You soon run out of axles as you can wither put traction motors on them or 4x inboard discs to cover if regen/rheostatic braking fails.

Jacobs were explicitly excluded.

Jacobs seem to be acceptable on the continent. I accept there's differing views either side of the channel regarding what is acceptable and what is not.

With an 8x25m configuration 6 cars of powered bogies with traction motors rated like those from Stadler's Flirt could give an installed power rating of 12MW/16,000HP. That would work quite nice

 

[Wolfie]

First/Trenitalia are said to be negotiating a new ICWC contract for up to 10 years.

Deeply uninspiring. They have been, to be blunt, crap thus far.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Deeply uninspiring. They have been, to be blunt, crap thus far.

I don't think we can give them a proper review yet as they've spent most of their tenure under covid restrictions. However, for the short period they weren't, they felt like they were trying too hard at being Virgin (and still are).