Luton to Brighton: can I stop off in London during the journey?

[wearytraveller]

Hi all
I'm due to meet my girlfriend in London on Wednesday and have a query.

If I buy a return from Luton to Brighton, can I get off in London, go to the ballet, then get back on the train to complete the outward journey. On Sunday I'd go direct from Brighton to home.

I'm suspecting this isn't strictly allowed, but to buy a single to London, then a single London to Brighton, then a single Brighton to Luton will cost about 50% more than a simple return ticket.

 

[miklcct]

You can do that provided your ticket allows a "break of journey", have the outward validity of at least one day, and return validity at least after Sunday, subject to time restrictions on your ticket, for example, an off-peak return.

 

[Mainline421]

Yes, this is allowed and quite common. A small number of ticket flows have restrictions on Break of Journey on the outward leg of off-peak returns, but assuming this https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LUT&dest=BTN&ldn=1&tkt=SVR is the one you're looking at there are none for this journey.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What type return ticket did you have in mind?

Most walk up return tickets from Luton to/from Brighton are routed "Any Permitted" with a cross London (Maltese Cross) symbol thereon. This, however, means that should you break journey at an intermediate (central London) LU station, once you've exited the LU station, the ticket will almost certainly not let you back in again at the same or another (central London) LU station in order to resume your journey. Not sure if the same issue applies if you were to break journey at an intermediate Thameslink station between St. Pancras and Blackfriars / London Bridge.

Another issue might be time of the day restrictions depending on ticket type held. Can anyone further advise?

 

[wearytraveller]

Thanks for the initial replies.
The ticket would be a standard off peak return, leaving Luton about 3pm on Wednesday, then leaving City Thameslink about 10.30pm, returning Brighton to Luton any time Sunday afternoon.

The train line is quite clear that this can be 'any permitted route', so presumably I could get off in London and catch the tube to Victoria and catch a Southern train from there, rather than staying on the Thameslink. No one would ever do this, but presumably it is permitted.

The break of journey rule is less committal.

 

[alistairlees]

An Off-Peak Return from Luton to Brighton is valid to cross London:
- by Thameslink directly (without changing)
- by tube, from (for example) Kings Cross St Pancras tube to Victoria tube, or to London Bridge tube

I don't see any reason why you can't do this:
- train from Luton to St Pancras
- tube from St Pancras to Covent Garden (for example)
- make your own way, at your own expense, to any of the 'southern' London Terminals stations from which you can catch a train to Brighton - such as Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. You could also go to Charing Cross or Waterloo East.
- take a train from any of those to Brighton (if you are getting on at Charing Cross or Waterloo East, you will need to change at London Bridge)

It is worth noting though that - even though your ticket is perfectly valid to exit the tube at Covent Garden or Leicester (though you may not enter at a station that isn't adjacent to a National Rail station) - the London Underground staff are very likely to say that your ticket is not valid to exit there (it will be rejected by the barriers), and that you will have to pay or go back down the escalator and continue on the tube to a National Rail station. It happens to me every time, although they do down after some arguing - but it does not make for a stress-free journey!

 

[Mainline421]

Break of journey is fine on that ticket yes, the restriction code is 4J see nre.co.uk/4J A tube journey from St Pancras to Victoria etc is also included, but you don't have to this and can instead just resume at City Thameslink as planned.

Don't use Trainline though as they often charge extra fees for the exact same tickets. This will need to picked up from the machine at Luton anwyay, so it'd be quicker to just buy it directly from the same machine instead of involving third party companies.

 

[iphone76]

Thanks for the initial replies.
The ticket would be a standard off peak return, leaving Luton about 3pm on Wednesday, then leaving City Thameslink about 10.30pm, returning Brighton to Luton any time Sunday afternoon.

The train line is quite clear that this can be 'any permitted route', so presumably I could get off in London and catch the tube to Victoria and catch a Southern train from there, rather than staying on the Thameslink. No one would ever do this, but presumably it is permitted.

The break of journey rule is less committal.

Until 10th January, Southern aren't serving London Victoria, so I think you'll have to continue via City Thameslink to continue to Brighton. I'd also recommend getting a railway app or checking the national rail website to ensure your Thameslink train is running before you head down to catch the train.

 

[wearytraveller]

An Off-Peak Return from Luton to Brighton is valid to cross London:
- by Thameslink directly (without changing)
- by tube, from (for example) Kings Cross St Pancras tube to Victoria tube, or to London Bridge tube

I don't see any reason why you can't do this:
- train from Luton to St Pancras
- tube from St Pancras to Covent Garden (for example)
- make your own way, at your own expense, to any of the 'southern' London Terminals stations from which you can catch a train to Brighton - such as Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. You could also go to Charing Cross or Waterloo East.
- take a train from any of those to Brighton (if you are getting on at Charing Cross or Waterloo East, you will need to change at London Bridge)

It is worth noting though that - even though your ticket is perfectly valid to exit the tube at Covent Garden or Leicester (though you may not enter at a station that isn't adjacent to a National Rail station) - the London Underground staff are very likely to say that your ticket is not valid to exit there (it will be rejected by the barriers), and that you will have to pay or go back down the escalator and continue on the tube to a National Rail station. It happens to me every time, although they do down after some arguing - but it does not make for a stress-free journey!

I had no idea a tube journey was included in a cross-London train ticket. I must have given LUL hundreds of quid over the years that they don't deserve.

I'm all for stress free, so will probably get off at City Thameslink and catch a bus along the strand. It sounds like that bus journey would be included if I was going to Charing X, but I doubt a ticket inspector or bus driver would know that...

 

[alistairlees]

I had no idea a tube journey was included in a cross-London train ticket. I must have given LUL hundreds of quid over the years that they don't deserve.

I'm all for stress free, so will probably get off at City Thameslink and catch a bus along the strand. It sounds like that bus journey would be included if I was going to Charing X, but I doubt a ticket inspector or bus driver would know that...

Bus journeys are not included in x-London tickets; only tube (or DLR), as appropriate.

 

[Hadders]

An Off-Peak Return from Luton to Brighton is valid to cross London:
- by Thameslink directly (without changing)
- by tube, from (for example) Kings Cross St Pancras tube to Victoria tube, or to London Bridge tube

I don't see any reason why you can't do this:
- train from Luton to St Pancras
- tube from St Pancras to Covent Garden (for example)
- make your own way, at your own expense, to any of the 'southern' London Terminals stations from which you can catch a train to Brighton - such as Victoria, London Bridge, Blackfriars or City Thameslink. You could also go to Charing Cross or Waterloo East.
- take a train from any of those to Brighton (if you are getting on at Charing Cross or Waterloo East, you will need to change at London Bridge)

It is worth noting though that - even though your ticket is perfectly valid to exit the tube at Covent Garden or Leicester (though you may not enter at a station that isn't adjacent to a National Rail station) - the London Underground staff are very likely to say that your ticket is not valid to exit there (it will be rejected by the barriers), and that you will have to pay or go back down the escalator and continue on the tube to a National Rail station. It happens to me every time, although they do down after some arguing - but it does not make for a stress-free journey!

I agree with this, especially the bit on exiting the Underground. If you're heading to the Leicester Square/Covent Garden area for the opera I suggest taking the Underground from Kings Cross St Pancras to Charing Cross. It's only a short walk and you won't get hassle exiting the Underground at Charing Cross as it's an interchange station so the ticket will operate the barriers.

 

[4COR]

I had no idea a tube journey was included in a cross-London train ticket. I must have given LUL hundreds of quid over the years that they don't deserve.

There are some exceptions to this - I have come unstuck long ago when asking for Upper Warlingham to Enfield Chase return, and being sold (what is now) a "ROUTE CITYTL/SURREY QUAYS" ticket that doesn't have the Maltese Cross (and not realising until I got to the tube barriers at London Bridge...). That ticket has no tube validity.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There are some exceptions to this - I have come unstuck long ago when asking for Upper Warlingham to Enfield Chase return, and being sold (what is now) a "ROUTE CITYTL/SURREY QUAYS" ticket that doesn't have the Maltese Cross (and not realising until I got to the tube barriers at London Bridge...). That ticket has no tube validity.

There is also a route "Any Permitted" (with Maltese cross) availability for journeys from Upper Warlingham to/from Enfield Chase, but those tickets are a little bit more expensive than the one you describe.

 

[Class 466]

Bare in mind if you're doing this on Wednesday there will be no Southern services from Victoria, so Thameslink will be your only real option from London Bridge

 

[Alex365Dash]

If you prefer Southern, there is also the option available of catching the Southern service towards Littlehampton from London Bridge and changing at Hove - depending on where you’re going in the city, you can either leave here or take one of the regular shuttle services from Hove into Brighton, which from a cursory glance at the timetable have fairly good connections.

Thameslink is however both easier (in terms of lack of changes) and quicker.

 

[hkstudent]

There are some exceptions to this - I have come unstuck long ago when asking for Upper Warlingham to Enfield Chase return, and being sold (what is now) a "ROUTE CITYTL/SURREY QUAYS" ticket that doesn't have the Maltese Cross (and not realising until I got to the tube barriers at London Bridge...). That ticket has no tube validity.

Most tickets within Travelcard zones 1-6 do have the option of NOT VIA UNDERGROUND as long as it is viable

 

[4COR]

There is also a route "Any Permitted" (with Maltese cross) availability for journeys from Upper Warlingham to/from Enfield Chase, but those tickets are a little bit more expensive than the one you describe.

I soon came to realise that (whereas I didn't know there was this option at the time, and wasn't asked at the ticket office either - this was in the days of the old Kings Cross Thameslink, prior to the through TL services to the ECML, and prior to London Overground.... It seemed a very awkward route compared to the Northern City Branch and Moorgate...

My point is that, if there is a NOT VIA UNDERGROUND (or similar) route, and you don't specify a route at a ticket office, you *might* not be able to foresee what you get sold!

 

[Joe Paxton]

[...]
It is worth noting though that - even though your ticket is perfectly valid to exit the tube at Covent Garden or Leicester [Square] (though you may not enter at a station that isn't adjacent to a National Rail station) - the London Underground staff are very likely to say that your ticket is not valid to exit there (it will be rejected by the barriers), and that you will have to pay or go back down the escalator and continue on the tube to a National Rail station. It happens to me every time, although they do down after some arguing - but it does not make for a stress-free journey!

I do genuinely wonder whether it being "perfectly valid" is actually the case.

Yes, I do fully appreciate that the NRE information - somewhat buried away as it may be - is that a cross-London LU transfer journeys can be broken (though not resumed), but I am just a little curious as to whether that is actually written in to the agreement between RSP and LUL. It's fairly easy to imagine that such an agreement was basically inherited and carried over from the BR days.

In times past, my general feeling is that such things were a bit looser and less tightly specified that they would be today. Plus I think there would have been fewer concerns about passenger rights or notions about holding someone 'captive' by only allowing a journey between specified stations and disallowing exit at an intermediate station.

I just wonder if the 'right to break a cross-London LU journey' on an NR ticket with a Maltese cross might have been grafted on by RSP in more recent times without really consulting LUL on the matter... perhaps say in reaction to a customer query or complaint that actually managed to reach a pricing/fares manager in one of the TOCs, who regarded it as an inconsistency with broader NR / RSP ticket rules as they had developed.

In other words, maybe just maybe LUL isn't quite the big bad ogre on this issue that it is commonly portrayed to be? Just a thought.


Also, regardless of what the actual validity is or should be, my advice would be to only use NR tickets with a Maltese cross for journeys between stations on the NRE list at the top of the page here:
www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#travelling_connect

Furthermore, whilst I've certainly been somewhat loose / 'inventive' in my interpretation of the stipulation the cross-London Tube journey being made is "subject to route of the through journey being made", I've only done so in terms of central London - I'd certainly advise against pushing it in terms of being 'inventive' with regards to far flung stations on the list (e.g. Upminster, Lewisham, Richmond etc).

 

[XAM2175]

In other words, maybe just maybe LUL isn't quite the big bad ogre on this issue that it is commonly portrayed to be? Just a thought.

I have to confess I'm still having trouble understanding the point of your post.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have to confess I'm still having trouble understanding the point of your post.

My suggestion is that RSP changed the rules as presented to passengers, but didn't consult or negotiate with LU on the matter, hence LU continues to enforce their understanding of the agreement (which dates from at least three decades ago).

At least, something along those lines.

 

[XAM2175]

It is worth noting though that - even though your ticket is perfectly valid to exit the tube at Covent Garden or Leicester (though you may not enter at a station that isn't adjacent to a National Rail station) - the London Underground staff are very likely to say that your ticket is not valid to exit there (it will be rejected by the barriers), and that you will have to pay or go back down the escalator and continue on the tube to a National Rail station. It happens to me every time, although they do down after some arguing - but it does not make for a stress-free journey!

My suggestion is that RSP changed the rules as presented to passengers, but didn't consult or negotiate with LU on the matter, hence LU continues to enforce their understanding of the agreement (which dates from at least three decades ago).

Are we sure it's not just our old favourite poorly-informed staff? I've stopped short on cross-London tickets twice in recent years without a hint of bother at all.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Are we sure it's not just our old favourite poorly-informed staff? I've stopped short on cross-London tickets twice in recent years without a hint of bother at all.

Quite possibly it's just that.

 

[Haywain]

Are we sure it's not just our old favourite poorly-informed staff?

I think that's a certainty. London Underground staff do seem have a tendency to be difficult with anything out of the ordinary.

 

[talldave]

I think that's a certainty. London Underground staff do seem have a tendency to be difficult with anything out of the ordinary.

Especially if you're honest and tell them that the reason you have a ticket to somewhere else is that it's cheaper than a ticket to where you are!!