Light rail or tram proposals that never happened!

[bussnapperwm]

West Midlands Metro to Quinton, Great Barr, Wednesfield, Walsall and a Wolves city loop. All good ideas but with 1 now going as Sprint, 3 dead and the Quinton line being built only as far as Edgbaston Village.

Also, WM Metro to Wolves Lower Level. Another proposal that got canned.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

West Midlands Metro to Quinton, Great Barr, Wednesfield, Walsall and a Wolves city loop. All good ideas but with 1 now going as Sprint, 3 dead and the Quinton line being built only as far as Edgbaston Village.

Also, WM Metro to Wolves Lower Level. Another proposal that got canned.

I wasn’t aware of the Wolverhampton low level extension was that during the 90s?

 

[bussnapperwm]

I wasn’t aware of the Wolverhampton low level extension was that during the 90s?

I cant remember reading where, but that was a early proposal

 

[Donny_m]

The Bristol tram scheme has been floated and sunk several times, each with modified routes compared to the previous. The most recent incarnation included a line to the airport. Nowadays the shift has been towards heavy rail, we are currently waiting on the Portishead branch, possible extra shacks between TM and Bath/Parkway and a ‘snipped’ Henbury loop.

Pretty sure I’ve got the 2011 ish Panflet for the tram. The route was ridiculous, especially on spike island balancing on 1800’s stone work alongside the river. Which subsequently fell in the river last year.

 

[Bob Price]

There was a proposed light rail to link Hereford to Gloucester which never got off the page. Trams for Bath have a continued presence. Also the ULTRA PRT system for Cardiff and expansion of the Heathrow pod track.

 

[duncanp]

West Midlands Metro to Quinton, Great Barr, Wednesfield, Walsall and a Wolves city loop. All good ideas but with 1 now going as Sprint, 3 dead and the Quinton line being built only as far as Edgbaston Village.

Also, WM Metro to Wolves Lower Level. Another proposal that got canned.

There is a proposal to extend the Edgbaston Village line along Hagley Road as far as Bearwood, where there is room for a terminus at the bus station.

It would be very convenient for me, but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Techniquest]

There was a proposed light rail to link Hereford to Gloucester which never got off the page. Trams for Bath have a continued presence. Also the ULTRA PRT system for Cardiff and expansion of the Heathrow pod track.

I've never heard of that Hereford to Gloucester light rail scheme, do you have any links to details? It would be an interesting scheme, but light rail through the rural areas just isn't really sensible.

 

[Bob Price]

It was a long time ago, mid 80's when everyone was suggesting schemes. I only know about it because of a friend who has some the trackbed in their back garden. They had bought it but were told there was a proposal to reopen the line as a light rail. It was the talk of the village at the time. However, as with most of these schemes, it never got off the page.

 

[Techniquest]

It was a long time ago, mid 80's when everyone was suggesting schemes. I only know about it because of a friend who has some the trackbed in their back garden. They had bought it but were told there was a proposal to reopen the line as a light rail. It was the talk of the village at the time. However, as with most of these schemes, it never got off the page.

Thanks Similar to that long running proposal to reopen the railway to Rotherwas (Hereford). Rather silly idea really, but more sensible than trying to reopen the railway any further than that.

 

[Kingston Dan]

Looking at the "Today's railways" reviews of 1987 - 1990 - the following were mentioned as "proposed" (first mention only) - in addition to those that actually made it.

1987: Bristol, Glasgow, Leeds, Southampton
1988: Aberdeen, Cardiff, Cambridge, Cleveland, Mid Devon, Glasgow, Hampshire, Liverpool, Norwich, Stoke-on-Trent, Gloucester, Newcastle Quayside (the last two being "tourist tramways")
1989: Dundee, Preston, Hull, Chester, Swindon, Reading, Plymouth, Belfast
1990: Kingston-upon-Thames, Chatham, Chelmsford, Milton Keynes, Southend, North London.
1990 mentioned as "already shelved": Aberdeen, Bedford, Gateshead, Leicester, Swansea, St Albans

How many of these ever got beyond Councillor XYZ mentioning at one meeting: "We're thinking it would be nice to bring the trams back", I'm not sure

The Kingston tram proposal re-emerged in 2004: https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/510258.tram-plan-on-track/

There have also been proposals to extend the district line around the Kingston loop - but I can't imagine anyone has worked out how to get the district line across to the the down slow at Wimbledon without stuffing up the station throat.

 

[russellg]

Sheffield had light rail/monorail schemes proposed such as the "minitram" in the 70's (as well as a heavy rail underground loop line).

Sheffield's Aborted Monorail Plans: What Happened? • The Sheffield Guide

Sheffield's Monorail plans are the stuff of legend, but what really caused it to fail? • Discover the very best of the Steel City with The Sheffield Guide.

www.sheffieldguide.blog

More recently (late 80's/early 90's) there was a proposal to buy a monorail system used at an World Expo and run it down The Moor.

 

[D365]

Sheffield had light rail/monorail schemes proposed such as the "minitram" in the 70's (as well as a heavy rail underground loop).

Was that the plan to send an underground out towards Ecclesall Road and/or Fulwood?

 

[chesterred16]

Looking at the "Today's railways" reviews of 1987 - 1990 - the following were mentioned as "proposed" (first mention only) - in addition to those that actually made it.

1987: Bristol, Glasgow, Leeds, Southampton
1988: Aberdeen, Cardiff, Cambridge, Cleveland, Mid Devon, Glasgow, Hampshire, Liverpool, Norwich, Stoke-on-Trent, Gloucester, Newcastle Quayside (the last two being "tourist tramways")
1989: Dundee, Preston, Hull, Chester, Swindon, Reading, Plymouth, Belfast
1990: Kingston-upon-Thames, Chatham, Chelmsford, Milton Keynes, Southend, North London.
1990 mentioned as "already shelved": Aberdeen, Bedford, Gateshead, Leicester, Swansea, St Albans

How many of these ever got beyond Councillor XYZ mentioning at one meeting: "We're thinking it would be nice to bring the trams back", I'm not sure

One of the local election candidates in Chester - the type that stand in every election but never get in, I forget which party - keeps banging on about bringing trams back to Chester. I've never seen a map or any proper proposals, and I assume there's nothing of any substance in the plan.

 

[russellg]

Was that the plan to send an underground out towards Ecclesall Road and/or Fulwood?

I need to look it up - I did a project at school about transit systems in Sheffield (pre-Supertram, this was 30 years ago!) and I remember reading about it then.

 

[MarkWi72]

West Midlands Metro to Quinton, Great Barr, Wednesfield, Walsall and a Wolves city loop. All good ideas but with 1 now going as Sprint, 3 dead and the Quinton line being built only as far as Edgbaston Village.

Also, WM Metro to Wolves Lower Level. Another proposal that got canned.

The line to Walsall from Brum then integrating with a line to Wednesdbury/Dudley/Merry Hill would be a good way on joining up the dots; but will the WMCA ever join the dots?

The East Brum - North Solihull - HS2 / Arden Cross one might get canned now too.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Sheffield had light rail/monorail schemes proposed such as the "minitram" in the 70's (as well as a heavy rail underground loop line).

I've managed to find some details on the underground loop proposal - see https://walkleyhistory.files.wordpr...-put-it-together-spiral-bound-booklet-144.pdf (which appears to be a 1975 consultation document from the Sheffield/Rotherham Land Use and Transportation Study). The map with the loop is on page 9 of the PDF - I've also attached it below.

Basically the proposal was to have a city centre loop with three stations at Midland, Town Hall (seemingly the only underground station) and Commercial Street, which would serve electrified heavy rail services to Mosborough, Stocksbridge, Barnsley via Elsecar and Chapeltown, Mexborough/Doncaster and Kiveton Park, "offering 15 minute frequencies during the day" (see page 11 of PDF). This doesn't appear to have been progressed any further after the study.

Was that the plan to send an underground out towards Ecclesall Road and/or Fulwood?

The loop line clearly wasn't that. The 1970s study did look into trams as well (PDF page 18) but rejected them. (Unfortunately the map of the proposed tram network, on PDF page 22, wasn't scanned in unfolded form.) The document does say that trams "can eventually be put underground in the City Centre," but I'm not sure how this would relate to Ecclesall Road/Fulwood, and that "eventually" suggests that tunnels weren't examined in detail at that time. I am aware of another proposal for modern trams in Sheffield from the 1960s or early 1970s (I haven't seen a map) that included tunnels, but I understood these were only in the city centre.

(Incidentally, I think that, although trams were rejected in the 1970s, the then Metropolitan County did make reservations for some of the alignments investigated at that time, and I believe some of these ended up being used for Supertram.)

 

[urpert]

From memory, the Sheffield system largely avoids old alignments, although I imagine Edinburgh is probably the winner in percentage terms.

Sheffield also has the highest proportion of street running IIRC.

Tramlink extensions to:

Crystal Palace
Sutton
Croydon Airport
Streatham

Pretty sure Biggin Hill has been floated too (presumably by someone seeing how close New Addington is on a map, without understanding the topography)

 

[John Luxton]

Merseytram was pulled in 2005 after the scheme cost increased from £170m to £270m when Laing O'Rourke won the contract unopposed (the other two bidders pulled out), Liverpool City Council and Knowsley council agreed to increase their share of the scheme funding by £24m but the other Merseyside councils refused to put any more money into the tram scheme and so the government pulled the plug over lack of local support.

Quite a lot of rail had been bought.

Sold in recent years to IoM Transport for the Douglas promenade refurbishment and Crich Tramway Museum. Plus somewhere in else I don't recall.

 

[DerekC]

The Solent tram system would have partly used an old line - the alignment can clearly be seen on google maps, its 'Henry Cort way' in Gosport. After the scheme was cancelled the route was converted into a dedicated bus lane, which can also be used by cyclists and emergency service vehicles. As a recreational cyclist it is a good route to use, but anybody who has driven on the adjacent a32 knows how notorious the traffic is, and indeed in the wider area as a whole. Gosport remains the largest UK town with no railway station serving it direct.

New proposed schemes do crop up every now and then in local media, such as this one from a few weeks ago: https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19483784.southampton-city-council-considering-trams-light-railway/

However, they never seem to materialise in any meaningful way. When digging into the one posted above, for example, it seems to be proposing an increased service pattern rather than building any new infrastructure.

The scheme was known as South Hampshire Rapid Transit and (as @Solenttraffic ) says, planned to use the old LSWR alignment from Fareham to Gosport. The project website still existed until quite recently but seems to have gone now. There was a plan to extend by interoperating trams with heavy rail on the Fareham - St Denys line. I never could work out how that would work. Street running trams with (presumably) side skirts and third rail shoe gear? Hmm. Even if you fitted 750 or 1500vDC OLE, the third rail clearances would have been a big issue.

 

[Martin23230]

I've managed to find some details on the underground loop proposal - see https://walkleyhistory.files.wordpr...-put-it-together-spiral-bound-booklet-144.pdf (which appears to be a 1975 consultation document from the Sheffield/Rotherham Land Use and Transportation Study). The map with the loop is on page 9 of the PDF - I've also attached it below.

For a much older proposal there was the "City & Suburban Railway" loop proposed in 1899 (PDF article, map below) which it seems would have included a short tunnel through the city centre.

Incidentally it seems the University of Sheffield library has a copy of that "Transport Plan Kit", so it might be possible to take a look and see if proposed tram network map is included.

 

[matchmaker]

There have been a number of proposals to extend the Glasgow Subway eastwards - I doubt that this will ever happen.

 

[daodao]

From memory, the Sheffield system largely avoids old alignments

Is that really true? The Sheffield Supertram routes to Middlewood and Malin Bridge are an almost exact replica of the first generation tramway routes to these destinations, at least from Shalesmoor (close to the former Sheffield Royal Infirmary). Sheffield Supertram also uses former tramway alignments along West Street to the City Centre and along City Road (part of the former route to Intake).

 

[geordieblue]

Is that really true? The Sheffield Supertram routes to Middlewood and Malin Bridge are an almost exact replica of the first generation tramway routes to these destinations, at least from Shalesmoor (close to the former Sheffield Royal Infirmary). Sheffield Supertram also uses former tramway alignments along West Street to the City Centre and along City Road (part of the former route to Intake).

I meant old railway alignments as opposed to tram ones - but that's a fair point

 

[John Luxton]

The Light Rail Transit Association published a very good book on this topic last year. "Might Have Been Trams and Tramways" by Tony Young.

I bought a copy on a visit to Crich last summer. Very comprehensive and covers tramways from the early days to the present.

One of the most interesting featured was a proposal to link Southport Tramways with those of Lytham and Blackpool via a transporter bridge across the Ribble estuary!

Might Have Been Trams and Tramways by Tony Young | Waterstones

Buy Might Have Been Trams and Tramways by Tony Young from Waterstones today! Click and Collect from your local Waterstones or get FREE UK delivery on orders over £25.

www.waterstones.com

 

[NorthKent1989]

Read in interesting piece in a local
Croydon blog regarding the tramlink’s lack of expansion in the twenty years it’s been in operation

What might have been: how Croydon Trams should have grown

Have you ever wondered what the Croydon Tram network might look like if the Crystal Palace extension, or the much-talked-about Sutton line, had ever been built? Loyal reader Anthony Norris-Watson c…

insidecroydon.com

The article includes a map of how the tramlink could have been extended to Kingston, Sutton, Purley, Coulsdon, Brixton, Bromley, Lewisham and Crystal Palace

One like that stood out was how the writer says that the 2010s was a wasted decade for the Croydon tram, and with TfL’s finances being in the toilet, the 2020s will be another decade in which there has been no expansion.

Contrast that to the DLR which expanded rapidly in its first twenty years through the 90s & 00s.

 

[duncanp]

Contrast that to the DLR which expanded rapidly in its first twenty years through the 90s & 00s.

And :-

• Nottingham - opened after Croydon, and a major extension in 2015 with the lines to Toton and Clifton South.
• Edinburgh - extension to Newhaven
• Blackpool - extension to Blackpool North station
• Sheffield - tram train to Rotherham
• Birmingham - extensions to New Street station and Library, with four extensions currently under construction (Edgbaston Village, Wolverhampton Station, Digbeth, and Merry Hill)

So even without the effect of Crossrail and COVID on TfL's finances, there have been plenty of opportunities for expanding Croydon Tramlink over the past 20 years.

But I can't help wondering what might have happened if the money and effort expended on the Cross River Tram (Camden Town - Brixton/Peckham) and the West London Tram (Shepherd's Bush - Uxbridge) had been used to design and promote properly funded extensions of the Tramlink Network.

 

[Bob Price]

Shepards Bush to Uxbridge was a non starter as it relied on trams running up main roads full of traffic. The Cross River one should have been built.

Problem was for a chunk of time London had a mayor more interested in gimmicks like the cable car, a garden bridge and an estuary airport to actually have a serious transport expansion plan.

 

[NorthKent1989]

And :-

• Nottingham - opened after Croydon, and a major extension in 2015 with the lines to Toton and Clifton South.
• Edinburgh - extension to Newhaven
• Blackpool - extension to Blackpool North station
• Sheffield - tram train to Rotherham
• Birmingham - extensions to New Street station and Library, with four extensions currently under construction (Edgbaston Village, Wolverhampton Station, Digbeth, and Merry Hill)

So even without the effect of Crossrail and COVID on TfL's finances, there have been plenty of opportunities for expanding Croydon Tramlink over the past 20 years.

But I can't help wondering what might have happened if the money and effort expended on the Cross River Tram (Camden Town - Brixton/Peckham) and the West London Tram (Shepherd's Bush - Uxbridge) had been used to design and promote properly funded extensions of the Tramlink Network.

Exactly, there were definitely opportunities to expand on London’s tram network, even if the Croydon teams weren’t extended, the Cross River tram definitely would have given a chance for London to have a second generation tram system.

Shepards Bush to Uxbridge was a non starter as it relied on trams running up main roads full of traffic. The Cross River one should have been built.

Problem was for a chunk of time London had a mayor more interested in gimmicks like the cable car, a garden bridge and an estuary airport to actually have a serious transport expansion plan.

Which has set London back by at least a decade, apart from CrossRail and a possible, yet another extension to the DLR to Thamesmead, what other expansion plans do TfL have now? Any further schemes like a potential tram expansion won’t happen this side of 2050 and not until the Bakerloo line extension has finished which won’t be until after 2040 at the earliest.

 

[stuu]

Shepards Bush to Uxbridge was a non starter as it relied on trams running up main roads full of traffic. The Cross River one should have been built.

It could have worked if it had included tunnelling in the centre of Ealing, Acton and Southall, similar to many German stadtbahns. Most of the rest of the route would have been fine as a tram. Obviously it would have cost a lot more, but other countries somehow manage that sort of thing

 

[FS-2-11]

There have been a number of proposals to extend the Glasgow Subway eastwards - I doubt that this will ever happen.

The Evening Times still has this article from 2007 up: apparently the East End extension is a "done deal", and will "unequivocally" be delivered in time for the 2014 Commonwealth Games