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GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

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Capvermell

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I had to use London Bridge and Blackfriars instead of Victoria. This cost me an extra £29.40 in KeyGo charges. This has been refunded today!
No doubt this is only manual acceptance by a ticket collector after your ticket is rejected by the automated barrier. So if you use an automated fare charging product like Key Go you will be charged extra fares and only a small minority will manage to get that overcharge back.

Absolutely nothing in the normal automated fare charging system has been altered to reflect the fact that only a Saturday service is being run on a Saturday meaning that as far as I'm concerned Saturday rules on the validity of railcards and the non applicability of the weekday £13 minimum fare on a Network Card discounted ticket should also all apply.
 
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infobleep

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No doubt this is only manual acceptance by a ticket collector after your ticket is rejected by the automated barrier. So if you use an automated fare charging product like Key Go you will be charged extra fares and only a small minority will manage to get that overcharge back.

Absolutely nothing in the normal automated fare charging system has been altered to reflect the fact that only a Saturday service is being run on a Saturday meaning that as far as I'm concerned Saturday rules on the validity of railcards and the non applicability of the weekday £13 minimum fare on a Network Card discounted ticket should also all apply.
Well is it not the case that in most Christmas periods a Saturday timetable is run but with weekday restrictions, save public holidays and the rare TOC who relaxed restrictions.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Given Southern have loaded Journey planners with the cut down Victoria service until 11/2/22 doesn't look like there will be any more restoration of Victoria services in the short term. Given WFH guidance is being pulled and govt calling the pandemic at an end there is a potential for a rapid return of traffic to at least what it was last Autumn initially so likely to be more pressure to put direct Vic services back in.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Given Southern have loaded Journey planners with the cut down Victoria service until 11/2/22 doesn't look like there will be any more restoration of Victoria services in the short term. Given WFH guidance is being pulled and govt calling the pandemic at an end there is a potential for a rapid return of traffic to at least what it was last Autumn initially so likely to be more pressure to put direct Vic services back in.
Wouldn't put my hopes on any full restoration of Victoria services before the middle of February. Victoria services are still running at the weekend during this time though.
 

Bayum

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Is there a cost benefit to not using Victoria? Seems a bit of a crazy world when we’re not running services into/out of a major London termini.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Is there a cost benefit to not using Victoria? Seems a bit of a crazy world when we’re not running services into/out of a major London termini.
No. NR are still have to maintain it to Cat 1 track standards. Wouldn't be surprised its costing more with Vic drivers sitting on cushions to pick up duities reducing their utilisation.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Is there a cost benefit to not using Victoria? Seems a bit of a crazy world when we’re not running services into/out of a major London termini.
No. Its literally because the Train Planning team does not have enough resources to created a reduced plan meaning their only option was to use the reduced plan for the London Victoria Blockade at Christmas with trains diverting into London Bridge and roll that over.
 

Bald Rick

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Given Southern have loaded Journey planners with the cut down Victoria service until 11/2/22 doesn't look like there will be any more restoration of Victoria services in the short term. Given WFH guidance is being pulled and govt calling the pandemic at an end there is a potential for a rapid return of traffic to at least what it was last Autumn initially so likely to be more pressure to put direct Vic services back in.

That’s that until then. Then there’s the Copyhold Jn blockade* for half term (massive piece of work, engineering and train planning), and then probably back to the pre Christmas timetable, I guess.

*bet you wish you could have had a week to do a job like that back in the day!
 

Peregrine 4903

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That’s that until then. Then there’s the Copyhold Jn blockade* for half term (massive piece of work, engineering and train planning), and then probably back to the pre Christmas timetable, I guess.

*bet you wish you could have had a week to do a job like that back in the day!
Yeah, trains will return to Victoria for the Copyhold blockade all week, or at least that's the current plan.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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That’s that until then. Then there’s the Copyhold Jn blockade* for half term (massive piece of work, engineering and train planning), and then probably back to the pre Christmas timetable, I guess.

*bet you wish you could have had a week to do a job like that back in the day!
One of my most productive jobs was the entire relay of Hampton Court Jcn over an Easter weekend 14 units.

Copyhold is two fast leads (GVs) and four C or D's for the Bi-Di crossovers. That would have been 3 core weekends for the relay plus at least one 28hr beforehand and two afterwards. So 9 days equivalent and actually less than this blockade as it has a 52hr beforehand so 11 days. Granted would have needed a 40TSR for 4 weeks though and risk of an overrun on multiple occasions.

Im all for blockades but it was 3 years ago that there was a blockade to upgrade 3B's to Brighton but still need another one. Then of course there will still be quarterly 28hr mtce cyclics. The European model is that major blockades deliver a modernised railway that needs minimal mtce but we are way off that approach but with weekend leisure traffic being a key market that needs to be exploited perhaps we will start to see a changed approach.
 

Surreytraveller

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Given Southern have loaded Journey planners with the cut down Victoria service until 11/2/22 doesn't look like there will be any more restoration of Victoria services in the short term. Given WFH guidance is being pulled and govt calling the pandemic at an end there is a potential for a rapid return of traffic to at least what it was last Autumn initially so likely to be more pressure to put direct Vic services back in.
You cannot run anymore services to Victoria without doing away with the Balham terminators, as the additional South Croydon and Epsom to Victoria extras wiggle onto the fast lines at Balham to avoid the terminators
 

Nicholas Lewis

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You cannot run anymore services to Victoria without doing away with the Balham terminators, as the additional South Croydon and Epsom to Victoria extras wiggle onto the fast lines at Balham to avoid the terminators
Understand all that im just postulating that with WFH rescinded traffic levels will rapidly return to at least Autumn 2020 levels and the current lack of through running to Vic may create more pressure being bought to bare. Anyhow I doubt GTR will be able to respond until after Copyhold blockade now so they need to up the PR.
 

Surreytraveller

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Understand all that im just postulating that with WFH rescinded traffic levels will rapidly return to at least Autumn 2020 levels and the current lack of through running to Vic may create more pressure being bought to bare. Anyhow I doubt GTR will be able to respond until after Copyhold blockade now so they need to up the PR.
PR they do seem to have the resources for. If only they put as much resource into trying to run a train service as they do with propaganda
 

Peregrine 4903

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Understand all that im just postulating that with WFH rescinded traffic levels will rapidly return to at least Autumn 2020 levels and the current lack of through running to Vic may create more pressure being bought to bare. Anyhow I doubt GTR will be able to respond until after Copyhold blockade now so they need to up the PR.
This is a more general point, but why do people always forget about NR Train Planning, who put in an equal amount of hard work to make sure timetables are valid and work.
 

Surreytraveller

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This is a more general point, but why do people always forget about NR Train Planning, who put in an equal amount of hard work to make sure timetables are valid and work.
Hard work in throwing out GTR's attempts

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Hard work in throwing out GTR's attempts
Probably more a case that people are unaware of the existence of them
 

Horizon22

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This is going to become slightly more than just an inconvenience if, as recently announced, working from home stops being required and Plan B is dropped. Most TOCs have seen a significant uptick in crew availability since Christmas and decreased Omicron rates.

I am normally supportive of "emergency timetables" but in this particular instance I think it will be more beneficial to more individuals to run with ad-hoc cancellations in the day and have Control deal with them as part of their daily tasks.
 

Surreytraveller

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This is going to become slightly more than just an inconvenience if, as recently announced, working from home stops being required and Plan B is dropped. Most TOCs have seen a significant uptick in crew availability since Christmas and decreased Omicron rates.

I am normally supportive of "emergency timetables" but in this particular instance I think it will be more beneficial to more individuals to run with ad-hoc cancellations in the day and have Control deal with them as part of their daily tasks.
Is the stock available?
 

Horizon22

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Is the stock available?

Eh? Since when has there been an issue with stock. The issue has been with crew shortages. Agreed it might take a bit of hard work to get the sets in the right place for the start of an SX timetable (which may lead to a few cancellations as stock is misbalanced) and everything won't sync up straight away but this is a very drastic reduction in service which whilst people might accept for a week or so, close to 6-7 weeks (and as a WFH mandate is dropped) is really not going to be seen in a good light.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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This is a more general point, but why do people always forget about NR Train Planning, who put in an equal amount of hard work to make sure timetables are valid and work.
Thats a fair point but the underlying reason reported on this thread has been a lack of GTR train planning resource to deal with changes driving by Omicron impact. What your actually illuminating of course is teh fact there is this resource as well which hopefully in GBR will be merged together to deliver an integrated solution not one where one side is marking the homework (i acknowledge thats an over simplification but when its a single operator there isn't so much to do).
 

infobleep

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Wouldn't put my hopes on any full restoration of Victoria services before the middle of February. Victoria services are still running at the weekend during this time though.
Which is when most people don't work but I accept the weekend might be busier than at commuter times during the week.

That isn't meant as a criticism. Just a statement of facts as I see it.
 

Surreytraveller

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Eh? Since when has there been an issue with stock. The issue has been with crew shortages. Agreed it might take a bit of hard work to get the sets in the right place for the start of an SX timetable (which may lead to a few cancellations as stock is misbalanced) and everything won't sync up straight away but this is a very drastic reduction in service which whilst people might accept for a week or so, close to 6-7 weeks (and as a WFH mandate is dropped) is really not going to be seen in a good light.
There hasn't been an issue with stock because of the reduced timetable. But if you're suggesting that a full SX timetable is reinstated, then stock could become an issue
 

Minstral25

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Hopefully GTR will use the opportunity whilst crews are available but not necessarily doing much to upgrade the competencies and complete the missing training/updates. It is my understanding that much training and competency work has been delayed due to Covid and that this is another factor reducing staff availability.

Locally it has been reported that the Reigate to Victoria service will resume on 19th Feb, which coincides with start of Three Bridges to Brighton blockade.
 

Surreytraveller

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Hopefully GTR will use the opportunity whilst crews are available but not necessarily doing much to upgrade the competencies and complete the missing training/updates. It is my understanding that much training and competency work has been delayed due to Covid and that this is another factor reducing staff availability.

Locally it has been reported that the Reigate to Victoria service will resume on 19th Feb, which coincides with start of Three Bridges to Brighton blockade.
Route refreshing trips are undertaken, as well as using the opportunity to get off-track drivers back on track
 

maniacmartin

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Another issue that I am running into is that it this is blocking purchase of Advance tickets. I want to buy a weekend SWR&Connections ticket, changing at Clapham Junction, but because the connecting Southern weekend trains from Croydon are being drip-fed into the system at very short notice, it means this ticket pretty much can't be bought in advance
 

Capvermell

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No. Its literally because the Train Planning team does not have enough resources to created a reduced plan meaning their only option was to use the reduced plan for the London Victoria Blockade at Christmas with trains diverting into London Bridge and roll that over.

Why on earth don't they have adequate planning resources to replan a more appropriate timetable after almost three weeks when there was a perfectly good although heavily reduced (especially on the normally extensively served Victoria to Gatwick and Brighton line) service timetable that ran for 7 or so months in 2020 that they surely could have got up and running again within a few days in the week starting Tuesday 4th Jan and that timetable did not divert initially all and then subsequently still the vast majority of services in to London Bridge and also ran a shuttle service from Dorking to Horsham at off peak times including Saturday evening. The only logical reason to divert to London Bridge originally over Christmas Week was because of engineering works on the lines in to London Victoria but that reason disappeared on Tuesday January 4th yet still the diversions to London Bridge and still the ridiculous last train out to Horsham via Dorking at 1725 every day continues. Also absurdly I notice that on that slightly amended (just one additional early morning service) Saturday timetable the first train from London Bridge to Ockley is at 0725 but the first regular hourly train from Ockley to London Victoria is at 0824 after the isolated 0600 service converted from a normally out of service train from Horsham to Victoria on a Saturday. So clearly they think this timetable is only designed for walkers going out to Surrey for the day and not for people going in to London on a weekday to use hospitals, undertake urgent business tasks and the like.

Had my LinkedIn profile viewed a few days ago by a person who describes themselves as being an "Amended Timetable and Rolling Stock Planner at GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway)" on their LinkedIn profile but of course no contact at all by that person by phone or email to discuss my issues with the train planning team. Only phone interactions I have had have been with Teleperformance customer service call centre in Bristol, who effectively don't have any proper knowledge or understanding of the Southern network and its amended service patterns of any kind (they don't even know or seem to care where any of the stations are located geographically) and a call back from a lady who is some kind of Customer Liaison Person with GT Railway, who could offer me no specific explanation or justification for why Southern is doing what it is doing running a Saturday service with no evening service south of Dorking for weeks on end while not even offering to pay for a replacement taxi south of Dorking at times of day when trains would normally run on a weekday.

The mask mandate and work from home edicts are all going by this time next week and recorded Omicron infections and therefore Southern/GT Railway staff absences will also be falling fast. Yet despite that normal service still not listed as returning on the current Southern journey planner until Monday 21st Feb some four and a half weeks from.

Seems GT Railway and the Department For Transport are in a conspiracy to recoup past financial losses during COVID from rail users using the excuse of Omicron. Any claims they didn't initially have enough staff working to plan a more appropriate timetable than the Christmas Saturday timetable are surelynow long since busted in terms of any credibility.
 

physics34

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Who arranges the stock, diagrams and paths for these?
Normally at local depot level using existing diagrams and train services. Occasionally they have run route learning special empties but these will very rare these days
 
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