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GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

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Peregrine 4903

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I can't see why their intention is to only progressively restore services to Victoria instead of to London Bridge on the Saturday timetable rather than just restore the entire darn lot going in to Victoria now the engineering works that were blocking the train paths are over.

If they just switched back to the full Saturday service to Victoria at one go the train route diagrams etc surely all already exist and there can't be a train crew resource issue to run in to Victoria as normal on the Saturday service compared to this still largely diverted to London Bridge service as the journey times for all the trains that normally run to Victoria are several minutes less than going in to London Bridge. This isn't of course true of South Eastern's services from Kent in to London Victoria but none of them have been affected by Southern's project of diversions to London Bridge and they are all running in to the other half of Victoria Station as before.
Saturday timetable is more intentsive than the weekday one, so if the whole reason why the Mon - Fri service was reduced was due to crew shortages and the dft's instruction, you can see why they don't roll over the saturday one.
 
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Capvermell

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It also creates too much workload for train planners who would have to rewrite already completely rewritten timetables for the weekends for engineering works. So another reason why the weekends are kept as is.
So then how on earth do they cope with going from Friday service to Saturday service to Sunday service each week normally if its so much work to do this? The normal Saturday service to Victoria already exists and all its timetables and route diagrams are surely already in the system. Surely problems are only caused by operating partially in to Victoria and partly in to London Bridge on a Saturday, as they are now doing, as that service pattern isn't already prepared and ready and trains that normally run to Victoria on a Saturday will surely clash with train paths of trains that normally run in to London Bridge on Saturday.

And how on earth are they managing to run from Horsham via Dorking in to London Victoria today and then switching back to London Bridge on Monday if changing all these train diagrams and putting them in to the system is so difficult as by flip flopping between London Victoria on Saturdays and London Bridge on weekdays on my route they are clearly only giving themselves a lot more work to do with all the repeated changes involved to achieve that.........
 

Capvermell

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Saturday timetable is more intentsive than the weekday one, so if the whole reason why the Mon - Fri service was reduced was due to crew shortages and the dft's instruction, you can see why they don't roll over the saturday one.
The current Omicron causes Saturday timetable can't be more intensive than the weekday one as they are running precisely the same number of trains on Saturday as on weekdays but then bizarrely changing the final place of termination on Saturday (from London Bridge to Victoria), hence giving themselves considerably more work to do so in train planning and train diagram terms in the process.

None of it makes any sense at all to us as passengers as the train planners and Southern senior management refuse to explain or justify the logic of what is going on in any detailed way.
 

Surreytraveller

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So if weekends are now much busier than weekdays these days then it makes precisely no sense whatsoever to continue running a service pattern from Dorking to Horsham with no trains on Saturday evening that came in to effect some time in the 1960s or 1970s

A quick solution exists by at least making the out of service south of Dorking 2255 from London Bridge in to a passenger service to Horsham but if any train planners are reading this they seem unwillng to take the hint, even though they have acceded to pressure from their own senior staff at Horsham Stationt o convert the early morning out of service train all the way from Horsham through to London Bridge in to a passenger carrying service on weekdays.........
Its been explained why its not a simple matter to run the 22.55 out of London Bridge as a passenger train
 

Peregrine 4903

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The current Omicron causes Saturday timetable can't be more intensive than the weekday one as they are running precisely the same number of trains on Saturday as on weekdays but then bizarrely changing the final place of termination on Saturday (from London Bridge to Victoria), hence giving themselves considerably more work to do so in train planning and train diagram terms in the process.

None of it makes any sense at all to us as passengers as the train planners and Southern senior management refuse to explain or justify the logic of what is going on in any detailed way.
This isn't correct, more trains run on the Saturday base timetable than the Monday - Friday one at the minute.

They cope normally becuase in normal times, the timetable isn't rewritten one week out from trains actually running.
 

infobleep

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One question I think worth asking is what was the reason they ran evening services between Dorking and Horsham last year on a Saturday?

Was there demand making it worthwhile or was it done simply because the timetable was based on the weekday one?
 

Capvermell

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Its been explained why its not a simple matter to run the 22.55 out of London Bridge as a passenger train
Funny that as it seemed to be quite simple for that very thing to happen for over 14 years from Monday to Friday with the 2326 service from London Victoria that formerly used to run only to Dorking in passenger service and then run on empty to Horsham. And it was of course simple to do that very thing with the early morning service from Horsham on a Saturday timetable that normally travels up to London Victoria empty.
 

Surreytraveller

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Funny that as it seemed to be quite simple for that very thing to happen for over 14 years from Monday to Friday with the 2326 service from London Victoria that formerly used to run only to Dorking in passenger service and then run on empty to Horsham. And it was of course simple to do that very thing with the early morning service from Horsham on a Saturday timetable that normally travels up to London Victoria empty.
Its simple for the 23.26 as it was planned in advance.
For the 22.55, as it would take extra time, there driver finishes at a certain time, and that would take them past that finishing time. It would also require an OBS
The early morning one can happen, as another driver is utilised to bring the train out of the sidings early, so the train can depart early using the driver that should have brought the train out of the sidings originally. There is also a spare OBS who can work the service.
 

Capvermell

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One question I think worth asking is what was the reason they ran evening services between Dorking and Horsham last year on a Saturday?

Was there demand making it worthwhile or was it done simply because the timetable was based on the weekday one?

For the lockdown timetable of 2020 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking they decided to run a 6 day a week service from Monday to Saturday that was exactly the same every day plus a separate Sunday service.

On the Monday to Saturday service through trains ran from Horsham up to Victoria through Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton in the morning and evening peak hour periods but in the middle of the day and in the later evening services from Dorking to Horsham were provided by a 4 carriage hourly shuttle service that took an hour for the return trip. The one snag of this time table was that the last train of the evening from London Victoria ran an hour earlier than normal at 2225 and the total journey time from Victoria to Ockley, with the change at Dorking, was 86 minutes instead of 68/73 minutes (last train of the day made a couple more stops and took 5 minutes longer) on through trains. The COVID lockdown timetable was published as a Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday timetable but in reality the service was exactly the same from Monday to Saturday under this timetable.

A copy of the lockdown timetable of 2020 is attached.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Its simple for the 23.26 as it was planned in advance.
For the 22.55, as it would take extra time, there driver finishes at a certain time, and that would take them past that finishing time. It would also require an OBS
The early morning one can happen, as another driver is utilised to bring the train out of the sidings early, so the train can depart early using the driver that should have brought the train out of the sidings originally. There is also a spare OBS who can work the service.
Can you clarify what position you presumably hold with Southern/GoVia that gives you such a clearly detailed knowledge of the line's service pattern as well as the physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements on the line between Dorking and Horsham as expressed here and in some of your earlier posts?
 

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Surreytraveller

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For the lockdown timetable of 2020 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking they decided to run a 6 day a week service from Monday to Saturday that was exactly the same every day plus a separate Sunday service.

On the Monday to Saturday service through trains ran from Horsham up to Victoria through Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton in the morning and evening peak hour periods but in the middle of the day and in the later evening services from Dorking to Horsham were provided by a 4 carriage hourly shuttle service that took an hour for the return trip. The one snag of this time table was that the last train of the evening from London Victoria ran an hour earlier than normal at 2225 and the total journey time from Victoria to Ockley, with the change at Dorking, was 86 minutes instead of 68/73 minutes (last train of the day made a couple more stops and took 5 minutes longer) on through trains. The COVID lockdown timetable was published as a Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday timetable but in reality the service was exactly the same from Monday to Saturday under this timetable.

A copy of the lockdown timetable of 2020 is attached.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Can you clarify what position you presumably hold with Southern/GoVia that gives you such a clearly detailed knowledge of the line's service pattern as well as the physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements on the line between Dorking and Horsham as expressed here and in some of your earlier posts?
What knowledge of physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements?
 

Capvermell

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For the lockdown timetable of 2020 from Victoria to Horsham via Dorking they decided to run a 6 day a week service from Monday to Saturday that was exactly the same every day plus a separate Sunday service.

On the Monday to Saturday service through trains ran from Horsham up to Victoria through Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton in the morning and evening peak hour periods but in the middle of the day and in the later evening services from Dorking to Horsham were provided by a 4 carriage hourly shuttle service that took an hour for the return trip. The one snag of this time table was that the last train of the evening from London Victoria ran an hour earlier than normal at 2225 and the total journey time from Victoria to Ockley, with the change at Dorking, was 86 minutes instead of 68/73 minutes (last train of the day made a couple more stops and took 5 minutes longer) on through trains. The COVID lockdown timetable was published as a Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday timetable but in reality the service was exactly the same from Monday to Saturday under this timetable.

A copy of the lockdown timetable of 2020 is attached.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Can you clarify what position you presumably hold with Southern/GoVia that gives you such a clearly detailed knowledge of the line's service pattern as well as the physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements on the line between Dorking and Horsham as expressed here and in some of your earlier posts?
Also who are you saying would be taken past their rostered finish time by running the 2255 service from London Bridge in passenger service between Dorking and Horsham as clearly isn't the driver is it? Presumably the resistance is to rostering a train supervisor between Dorking and Horsham that would have to travel up to Dorking by taxi as already happens in the late evening on the regular weekday train service since no trains run north up the Mole Valley Line from Horsham on that timetable after 2114.
 

Capvermell

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What knowledge of physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements?
I could have sworn that you were the person who commented on where Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham stations are located in relation to the surrounding villages but perhaps I am misremembering, even though you have displayed a quite remarkable level of detailed local knowledge of operational patterns on the Mole Valley line in almost every other respect that nobody else posting in this thread seems to have.

It might take me a while to plough through all of your posts since Monday last week at https://www.railforums.co.uk/search/2032704/?page=6 and find the one that I am sure I am remember reading as there's more than one thread it could have been posted in.
 

Capvermell

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What knowledge of physical infrastructure and surrounding settlements?
I see that it was actually forum member Rob Gibson who made the post at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gtr-cancellations-including-not-operating-from-victoria-until-10th-jan.226551/page-10#post-5477984 on the line geography and surrounding settlement proximity and density on the Dorking to Horsham line that I wrongly associated with your good self due to your very detailed knowledge about train workings on this section of line.
 

Surreytraveller

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Also who are you saying would be taken past their rostered finish time by running the 2255 service from London Bridge in passenger service between Dorking and Horsham as clearly isn't the driver is it? Presumably the resistance is to rostering a train supervisor between Dorking and Horsham that would have to travel up to Dorking by taxi as already happens in the late evening on the regular weekday train service since no trains run north up the Mole Valley Line from Horsham on that timetable after 2114.
The driver of that train would be taken over their finishing time.
Similarly to the morning one running passenger instead of empties, the driver would have to start before their starting time, but as they are rostered to get it out the sidings, another driver is used to get it out the sidings, so the original driver is on the platform early to run the train early.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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This isn't of course true of South Eastern's services from Kent in to London Victoria but none of them have been affected by Southern's project of diversions to London Bridge and they are all running in to the other half of Victoria Station as before.
The interlockings at Victoria C&SE were converted to SSI some 10 years ago this resignalling project is replacement of Balham and C.Jcn relay interlockings with SSI although believe its has another brand name these days. They still have eight weekends of closures and another 8 day closure next Xmas. Was involved with original Victoria resignalling 40 years ago we barely got any abnormals just a few hours extra on a Sunday morning in those days well before Sunday trading and sports events.
 

Capvermell

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It still isn't in any way clear to me why Southern could operate their normal Saturday timetable from Horsham to London Victoria today via Dorking and Epsom but still can't manage to do that from Monday to Friday on the same timetable and instead want to still operate those trains in to London Bridge for at least another three weeks.

Perhaps those with a greater understanding of the rail industry and rail operators than me can explain what is different about a Saturday compared to Monday to Friday that means that Saturday timetable can't yet be operated in to London Victoria from Monday to Friday?..............
 

pompeyfan

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As has been explained several times, there are several differences between the current M-F timetable and the Saturday timetable. Southern do not have the resources to merge the two timetables together without impacting on other train planning activities such as upcoming blocks. This is why it is easier to keep the current base timetables in place. To roll the M-F timetable into a M-S timetable would create extra work to ensure all the rolling stock lands where it is required each day. That is without putting the crews over their average working week.
 

30907

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Perhaps those with a greater understanding of the rail industry and rail operators than me can explain what is different about a Saturday compared to Monday to Friday that means that Saturday timetable can't yet be operated in to London Victoria from Monday to Friday?..............
Once again, to save you referring to several previous replies: the Saturday service overall has more trains than Monday to Friday and GTR claim not to have the staff resources.

Thank you for posting the original lockdown timetable which, I notice is the Saturday service to which has been added a morning and evening shuttle with indifferent connections southbound. I wonder how well they were used (once there were places one could legally visit), and whether the lack of passengers might be a reason for GTR not rushing to add those back?
 

ComUtoR

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Perhaps those with a greater what is different about a Saturday compared to Monday to Friday

Commuters ?


that means that Saturday timetable can't yet be operated in to London Victoria from Monday to Friday?..............

Sticking an orange into a basket of apple's doesn't really fit. A Saturday service is a square peg and a weekday service is a triangular hole.

To understand more why they don't fit is to understand how pathways work and are interconnected. As I stated in a previous post, everything is connected. I think you are seeing services as being isolated from each other but just as a single sevice can bring down the house of cards. Trying to smash a Saturday timetable into the weekday gravy train will either lead to a brown stain on the table or need plates and cutlery. Sadly the railway just doesnt have enough plates, cutlery, or another gravy boat.

Another analogy would be a spider web. Break a thread and it collapses. What you are trying to do is fix a spiderweb using hot glue.
 

infobleep

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Once again, to save you referring to several previous replies: the Saturday service overall has more trains than Monday to Friday and GTR claim not to have the staff resources.

Thank you for posting the original lockdown timetable which, I notice is the Saturday service to which has been added a morning and evening shuttle with indifferent connections southbound. I wonder how well they were used (once there were places one could legally visit), and whether the lack of passengers might be a reason for GTR not rushing to add those back?
Makes me wonder why they ran fhs evening services on the Saturday. There were times when I'd have found it useful but that was pre-covid.
 

abn444

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As has been explained several times, there are several differences between the current M-F timetable and the Saturday timetable. Southern do not have the resources to merge the two timetables together without impacting on other train planning activities such as upcoming blocks. This is why it is easier to keep the current base timetables in place. To roll the M-F timetable into a M-S timetable would create extra work to ensure all the rolling stock lands where it is required each day. That is without putting the crews over their average working week.
Isn't it also that Saturdays usually have engineering work at various points which means that while on paper the timetable is a normal Saturday one, the reality is that only some routes each Saturday are normal whilst others altered because of works?
 

pompeyfan

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Isn't it also that Saturdays usually have engineering work at various points which means that while on paper the timetable is a normal Saturday one, the reality is that only some routes each Saturday are normal whilst others altered because of works?

Yep I’d imagine that also plays a part. I hate to say it but I am inclined to agree though that the empties that run from Dorking to Horsham could run under a VSTP arrangement in passenger service using spare crew if available. That way the booked driver would be taken off their last bit and the A/R driver and guard/second person could bring it down. It’s likely that the right people haven’t identified it.

It could however have been declined by senior staff as a 4 hour gap in service may be perceived worse than a complete closure of service at a certain time.

not completely related but Chandlers Ford went nearly 3 weeks without any train service after the Salisbury incident, and passengers were told to use the 5 local buses a day rather then the hourly 0530 - 2330 train service. Chandlers ford has significantly more passengers than these tiny Surrey stations.
 

30907

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not completely related but Chandlers Ford went nearly 3 weeks without any train service after the Salisbury incident, and passengers were told to use the 5 local buses a day rather then the hourly 0530 - 2330 train service.
To be fair, our member in Capel has no bus after 19.50 from Dorking and so train plus walk is the only option (and a few minutes quicker from the end of the village where they live).
 

Class 170101

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Then let us hope those insiders take action sooner rather than later to bring to an end the nonsense of a Saturday evening service with no trains out of London proceeding south of Dorking after the 1725 service on weekdays.
Insiders, no doubt, are taking action and trying to influence and direct but if the DfT and their Paymasters the Treasury don't want to pay, it will stay as is sadly.
 

Rob Gibson

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I see that it was actually forum member Rob Gibson who made the post at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gtr-cancellations-including-not-operating-from-victoria-until-10th-jan.226551/page-10#post-5477984 on the line geography and surrounding settlement proximity and density on the Dorking to Horsham line that I wrongly associated with your good self due to your very detailed knowledge about train workings on this section of line.
You haven’t replied about how many passengers were using the evening shuttle service so probably safe to assume it was pretty much just you! There’ didn’t use to be any Saturday service, can’t remember when it started possibly after privatisation. I’m out.
 
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RJ

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Instead of providing no evening service between Dorking and Horsham, what’s to stop Southern providing taxis on request? Presumably there’s not enough demand to justify a rail replacement service? Or is something in place already?
 

Capvermell

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Instead of providing no evening service between Dorking and Horsham, what’s to stop Southern providing taxis on request? Presumably there’s not enough demand to justify a rail replacement service? Or is something in place already?

Clearly nothing stopping them providing taxis whatsoever. Station supervisor I talked to at Horsham said he would provide a taxi for anyone with a valid ticket who wanted to travel at the time the cancelled evening trains originally ran. Dorking supervisor said he wouldn't do. Snag there is last train from Horsham to Ockley on a normal weekdays is 2114 whereas from Dorking its the 0026. But currently last train from Dorking on a weekday is only the 1831.

But anyway adding to the above point I traveled on the 1831 south from Dorking last night after a day trip to Robertsbridge leaving on the 0824 from Ockley and returning on the 1614 from Robertsbridge all via Dorking Deepdene, Redhill and Tonbridge connections as stupidly going via London Bridge with only one connection is several pounds more expensive. So just to report there were 29 people traveling south out of Dorking on the 1831, to Horsham, which was a 10 carriage train. Two people got off at Holmwood and I was one of two getting off at Ockley. But this 29 passengers is considerably more than a usual 10 or 12 passengers on the last normal weekday train from Victoria to Horsham at 2325 getting to Dorking at 0026 south of Dorking and I strongly suspect that in the early evening there were also not any drunk or inexperienced travelers who had perhaps got on the slower train to Horsham by accident and hence all of the 29 were either those getting off at the intermediate stations (say 5 passengers) or passengers traveling back from stations such as Epsom, Leatherhead, and Guildford (where there are significant amounts of employment as well as lots of shops and other services) for all of whom this is a significantly faster option than having to change at Dorking Deepdene and again at Redhill to reach Horsham.

Southern Railway website has now been updated in terms of timetables to show trains running in to London Bridge from Horsham via Dorking rather than Victoria until Monday February 21st. No trains or rail replacement bus south of Dorking after the 1725 from London Bridge arriving at Dorking at 1832 and Ockley at 1842 for all of that time. Ridiculous Saturday timetable only originally used on weekdays for Christmas week for signal works now being carried on for another 7 weeks but yet despite this Network Card validity not revised to have same validity as at the weekend until such time as Southern feel capable of running a normal weekday timetable with evening train services south of Dorking. Cost me over £28 to get to Robertsbridge yesterday instead of the correct normal fare for a weekend service from Ockley to Robertsbridge via Redhill with a Network Card of £13. And also had my ticket checked on the Southern service from Redhill to Tonbridge out and back and on the way out by ticket inspection staff as though they new lots of angry passenger would be trying to travel on Off Peak tickets or without tickets.

Also tried to do my own ticket split yesterday and bizarrely from Ockley to Wadhurst was offered an Off Peak ticket as well as an Anytime by Ockley ticket machine at 0820 but neither it or the Southern ticket machine at Dorking would sell me any ticket from Wadhurst to Robertsbridge other than an Anytime even though their own timetable would show I could not get to Wadhurst before the Off Peak train time. Had to go to the ticket window at Dorking to be allowed to buy an Off Peak Return from Wadhurst to Robertsbridge. So its clearly substantially more hassle to do your own ticket split to avoid the few extra tens of pennies charged by Trainsplit to book on their site with all necessary tickets automatically printed by the Ockley ticket machine (after entering the booking code and presenting the booking credit card) with no refusal to issue the Off Peak ticket from Wadhurst to Robertsbridge.........
 

Jan Mayen

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I thought there was ticket acceptance to London Bridge and Blackfraers so the answer would be no.
I had to use London Bridge and Blackfriars instead of Victoria. This cost me an extra £29.40 in KeyGo charges. This has been refunded today!
 
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