Trains told to get rid of torrent of 'Tannoy spam'

[D1024]

I travelled London Underground District Line from Embankment to Earl's Court yesterday morning and the auto announcements barely managed to take a breath...and all at a very loud volume, so much so it was literally giving me a headache by the time I got to Earl's Court.

The worst example was approaching South Kensington where (paraphrasing here) "the Piccadilly Line escalators are out of service until spring 2022 please change at Hammersmith or Barons Court for the Piccadilly Line" repeated 3 times in succession and then just in case we weren't aware, a 4th time as the train departed South Kensington...bit pointless by then!

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm with Paul Clifton on this:

https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1484458475769909255?s=20

Since when was it a duty of a Secretary of State for Transport to decide the content of on-train announcements? I wonder what is left for rail managers to decide for themselves.

 

[Bikeman78]

Likely, no one will agree on what is essential (who needs to be told to keep their luggage in sight? - yet this is one of the transec 3 announcements, or certainly was 5 years ago), and we'll just keep getting the "see it, say it, sorted" type garbage.

I wonder if we'll ever get rid of SSS? Some of the attacks in the past decade had nothing to do with public transport. Any nutter can get in their car and kill people as happened in one of the attacks.

 

[greyman42]

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes. If people really were as stupid and incapable of taking care of themselves as to make the constant flood of bollocks safety announcements necessary, they'd never manage to make it to the station in the first place - how would they be able to walk down the street without a machine to tell them it's raining every few minutes? - so obviously we can cut those announcements because the people they're aimed at don't exist.

It's interesting that buses are largely immune to all this. A lot have next stop announcements these days but that's it. Clearly wet/slippery surfaces and potential terrorism applies just as much to buses as trains so the different policies are illogical. On a wet day the floor of a typical bus is just as slippery as any railway station.

 

[AM9]

It's interesting that buses are largely immune to all this. A lot have next stop announcements these days but that's it. Clearly wet/slippery surfaces and potential terrorism applies just as much to buses as trains so the different policies are illogical. On a wet day the floor of a typical bus is just as slippery as any railway station.

There's a slight difference with buses. A human being within sight of all single deck passengers and all double deck passengers pass the driver/conductor. In a DOO train passengers could be over 230m away from the nearest railway official. I doubt that drivers would be happy if passengers unfamiliar with the service used the pass comm to ask for general information.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

Don't know how they get away it. One announcement for "Go to gate xxx" should be the minimum.

 

[MattRat]

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

It's interesting that buses are largely immune to all this. A lot have next stop announcements these days but that's it. Clearly wet/slippery surfaces and potential terrorism applies just as much to buses as trains so the different policies are illogical. On a wet day the floor of a typical bus is just as slippery as any railway station.

It does often feel like they are trying to make train travel as unbearable as possible.....

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

They do. Heathrow has no flight announcements, but then an airport is very well staffed and has lots of people on hand to look after the blind (who are the only absolute beneficiaries of the torrent of verbal announcements as opposed to reading information from screens). Stations are different and try to be at least a little more intuitive to use for blind passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

It does often feel like they are trying to make train travel as unbearable as possible.....

The railways are beset with obsessive safetyism like "woah boy it's wet outside don't slip and die" which have almost no utility at all. I very much doubt these sorts of announcements change people's behaviour at all. Most European countries manage without the invasive level of announcements we tolerate.

 

[MattRat]

The railways are beset with obsessive safetyism like "woah boy it's wet outside don't slip and die" which have almost no utility at all. I very much doubt these sorts of announcements change people's behaviour at all. Most European countries manage without the invasive level of announcements we tolerate.

I get the feeling it might be something they do in the USA though.....

 

[ComUtoR]

...to look after the blind (who are the only absolute beneficiaries of the torrent of verbal announcements as opposed to reading information from screens).

As well as the illiterate, non native speakers, dyslexic and others who may not be able to real for some reason or another.

 

[Horizon22]

Birmingham New Street has done this same 'silencing technique', but its honestly a mess, in my opinion. They've silenced all auto P.A arrival/departure announcements, in an attempt to reduce noise pollution, but at the same time increased the amount of manual announcements. These are both announced globally across the ENTIRE station as well as some being very questionable in quality. Some of which you can barely understand a word of what is being said. So trains are often arriving in unannounced between no manual announcements.

The CIS is set up very poorly, too. Pax are often left waiting at the wrong end of the platform, because the CIS has only been split up for two parts of the station, whereas it needs to be split up into three parts for departures from the extreme 'B' end of the platform, which is often used by XC Turbo services.

I've sent a detailed suggestion email to Network Rail, which explains how they can improve the above situation. I am currently awaiting a response from them.

Any station tannoy manual announcements can all be set up to go out by zone / platform only but this is not normally the default, so needs attention and training to be done properly, something which can be lacking.

This is an issue with the technological capacity of the CIS - platforms can only be split into a maximum of 2 parts, so there's not really anything further to be done with regards to the announcements. What GWR / GTR and some other operators have is a platform indicator with zones which is one way of getting around the problem with a graphical interface of where the train stops on the departure screen. That being said no number of announcements are going to stop being in the wrong place. People never listen to "front/rear train only" and continuously mash the doors open set on the evidently locked up set and that's even WITH announcements.

I think there's a difference between on-train & station announcements and what frequency they should go at. I feel like some TOCs overkill the on-train announcements yet rely too much on automated announcements on stations which might be irrelevant and actually a human announcement would be ideal during some sort of delay. It's about realising when the tone & message needs to change but again most station control staff are not actually that well renumerated for the skills they need and some lack the training and/or experience to adjust proactively. Passenger information needs broader investment - the technology is there but the users are not always fully conversant in it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

Surely this is not needed for Heathrow Express. At Heathrow T5 for example it calls at 2 stations and the destination is the same for all trains.
TFL Rail is different because it has several intermediate stops but as you say this should be an automated announcement anyway.

Might be required at Heathrow so that people don't board the wrong service one presumes, given the large difference in cost. They could presumably do it shorter now TfL Rail is actually "all stops to London Paddington" as they have the Acton Mainline & Hanwell stops now and HeX being "express to London Paddington".

 

[AlterEgo]

As well as the illiterate, non native speakers, dyslexic and others who may not be able to real for some reason or another.

How is a non native speaker helped by garbled spoken English as opposed to screens?

 

[Bikeman78]

There's a slight difference with buses. A human being within sight of all single deck passengers and all double deck passengers pass the driver/conductor. In a DOO train passengers could be over 230m away from the nearest railway official. I doubt that drivers would be happy if passengers unfamiliar with the service used the pass comm to ask for general information.

I think you might have misunderstood what I wrote? I have no problem with next stop announcements on buses. My point is, that's all they have. None of the see it, say it, sorted nonsense, or "mind out the floor is wet." People work it out for themselves.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

I get the feeling it might be something they do in the USA though.....

Not in my experience. Very little in the way of auto announcements on the New York subway. They announce route, destination, next stop and mind the doors please. E.g. This is an A train to 207th Street, West 4th will be next, stand clear of the closing doors please.

 

[MattRat]

Not in my experience. Very little in the way of auto announcements on the New York subway. They announce route, destination, next stop and mind the doors please. E.g. This is an A train to 207th Street, West 4th will be next, stand clear of the closing doors please.

If the American's are more sensible than us, and don't need constant reminder while we do, something is very wrong. This is the same country that puts warning labels on car exhausts telling people that they might be hot (which should be blindingly obvious).

 

[43096]

Don't airports in the UK manage without announcements?

Don't know how they get away it. One announcement for "Go to gate xxx" should be the minimum.

Gatwick has gone down that route and it's brilliant. Announcements are only made for things like delays, changes to gates etc i.e. a change to the plan. Otherwise, you use the screen. What I'm not clear on is how they assist visually impaired passengers.

 

[PG]

Many of us wouldn't have the jobs we do if people could be bothered to figure things out themselves

Corrected that for you , we could maybe add they'd be able to figure things out themselves if they'd been bothered to pay a bit more attention at school...

That machine you joke about, it's called a 'smart' 'phone'.....

...which as the joke goes is used by idiots!

 

[leytongabriel]

How is a non native speaker helped by garbled spoken English as opposed to screens?

Very true! Especially as there are often a lot of extra words around the essential bit, e.g. 'The next station stop is Muffled Cross.Change for services to Barely Audible and Mispronounced Central. Please take extra care when alighting from the train as surfaces may be extra slippery and be sure to take all your belongings with you'. The bit that is really needed is 'Mufffled Cross' and you have to work extra hard to get it. I write as somebody who spent many years working with adults on literacy and language. Too loud is pretty unhelpful too - we have a natural defensive reaction against loud noise which impedes getting the message.

 

[D365]

This has echos of the "Cones Hotline" - that some Sir Bufton Tufton has complainted to CCHQ about it and everyone assumes it's a networkwide issue. The TOCs and Network Rail have plenty of other fish to fry instead of this.

It is a rather widespread issue...

 

[JamesT]

Gatwick has gone down that route and it's brilliant. Announcements are only made for things like delays, changes to gates etc i.e. a change to the plan. Otherwise, you use the screen. What I'm not clear on is how they assist visually impaired passengers.

In my experience of travelling with disabled people at airports, you would go to the assistance desk and wait there until a member of staff took you through all the way to the gate.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Today... on a Stansted Express from Liverpool Street to Tottenham Hale...

Prior to departure: Usual calling pattern announcemnts.

Immediately after departure: "This train will not call at Bethnal Green; the next station is Tottenham Hale."

Upon passing Bethnal Green: "This train will not call at Cambridge Heath; the next station is Tottenham Hale."

Upon passing Cambridge Heath: "This train will not call at London Fields; the next station is Tottenham Hale."

I think you can guess the rest...?

 

[MattRat]

In my experience of travelling with disabled people at airports, you would go to the assistance desk and wait there until a member of staff took you through all the way to the gate.

Good luck with that at some train stations. I've seen situations where delays or cancellations are only announced after people complain to staff asking where the train is.

 

[The exile]

As well as the illiterate, non native speakers, dyslexic and others who may not be able to real for some reason or another.

Written instructions are likely to be more useful to non native-speakers than announcements.
Good example of superfluity:
Mind the gap between the train and the platform. Mind the step between the train and the platform. (Other announcement). There is a larger gap than normal between the train and the platform at this station. Please take care to avoid injuring yourself. (There wasn’t - though there is in some places at the station (Temple Meads))

 

[AM9]

If this thread is anywhere near representative of public debate on the subject of PA messages, it just goes to show how good raising the issue was in diverting the public's attention from more embarassing issues.

 

[SLC001]

Life continues regardless of other distractions and background noise is an example of issues which do need addressing.
The sad thing is that I could use the train to go to an event this weekend. Reading this forum I can see many, many reasons why I shouldn't and won't. Will the train run? Will it be on time? Is is convenient i.e. runs at a time to suit me or is the station close by? Is it quicker? Will the train be overcrowded? Can I get a seat? How do I get a ticket? What is its validity? How costly is it? Do I feel safe? Because I dislike phones, can I still get a ticket at the station or must it be in advance through the internet? Indeed, is the journey itself likely to be a pleasant experience?
I, like many, will vote with our car keys. It is the overall experience on trains that will get people back, the package, the offering. Until it improves significantly, the railways will haemorrhage money and either the tax payer comes to the rescue or we reduce services even further. Announcements albeit small is symptomatic of the many problems railways have and like everything else I have just mentioned, needs addressing.

 

[philthetube]

I would love to know if see it etc. has had any effect, have calls to the BTP increased, has it reduced crime etc on trains, if the answers are yes then I can live with it.

 

[lachlan]

In my experience of travelling with disabled people at airports, you would go to the assistance desk and wait there until a member of staff took you through all the way to the gate.

I'd much rather have announcements personally so I can quickly and independently travel.

Written instructions are likely to be more useful to non native-speakers than announcements.
Good example of superfluity:
Mind the gap between the train and the platform. Mind the step between the train and the platform. (Other announcement). There is a larger gap than normal between the train and the platform at this station. Please take care to avoid injuring yourself. (There wasn’t - though there is in some places at the station (Temple Meads))

These announcements may feel superfluous, but if they're broadcast on visual displays they should also be spoken. Everything that is posted on a passenger information display should also be spoken to help blind and partially sighted people

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2022 ==

They do. Heathrow has no flight announcements, but then an airport is very well staffed and has lots of people on hand to look after the blind (who are the only absolute beneficiaries of the torrent of verbal announcements as opposed to reading information from screens). Stations are different and try to be at least a little more intuitive to use for blind passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==


The railways are beset with obsessive safetyism like "woah boy it's wet outside don't slip and die" which have almost no utility at all. I very much doubt these sorts of announcements change people's behaviour at all. Most European countries manage without the invasive level of announcements we tolerate.

The busiest airports also have flights landing and taking off every couple of minutes so there's probably not enough time to make all announcements. I'm trying to remember if the smaller airports I've been to made announcements...

 

[BeijingDave]

Written instructions are likely to be more useful to non native-speakers than announcements.

Indeed they are now. There are highly accurate apps where you can scan text through your phone camera and it will translate it to your language.

 

[dm1]

These announcements may feel superfluous, but if they're broadcast on visual displays they should also be spoken. Everything that is posted on a passenger information display should also be spoken to help blind and partially sighted people.

Whilst current accessibility regulations may not agree with me, I'm not convinced that rules like that are all that clear cut, particularly with the existence of smartphones and by extension, smartphones that can provide accessible information tailored to the person accessing them, given the right data.

Excessive announcements also make the railways less accessible for some people. As mentioned above, a "see it, say it, sorted" announcement provides no benefit whatsoever to someone who can't see.

Duplicating all visual information in audio form is a sticking plaster, and doesn't solve many problems that are caused by poor design, that could and should be resolved.

A properly accessible railway would have a ticketing and real-time information interface that is accurate, accessible, and compatible with as many accessibility features as possible, help points that work reliably, perhaps with tactile markings leading to them to make them easy to find, and staff at key points to assist those who may need it or where other solutions are not practical.

 

[MattRat]

Until it improves significantly, the railways will haemorrhage money and either the tax payer comes to the rescue or we reduce services even further.

Given that it's a Conservative government currently, I think the answer is obvious. And then reduced services means reduced passengers, and the cycle continues until nothing is left.....