Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[brad465]

Partial daytime service from Feb with full half hourly from May.

The arrival of 707s is being delayed by problems at Southwest Trains, in any case they are already spoken for on metro services. By my calculation it would take 6 sets to maintain the half hourly service. If they were to be 8 cars that would ned 12 4 cars, this could be covered by 377/5 along with the Victoria services the whole sub class would be allocated to Maidstone line services.

Are there plans to cutback other services to make way for this new service? When this was first being planned, the proposal was to cut Chatham mainline stoppers out and make the coast services call at the intermediate stops that would be missed otherwise. If there was going to be 4tph off peak on the Maidstone East line at least as far as Maidstone East, there would need to be more than all the 377/5s to run everything, and even at the moment 375s makeup some of the workings. There may also be a need to cutback the Ramsgate services to Canterbury West, like pre-covid.

 

[traingeek97]

T

Partial daytime service from Feb with full half hourly from May.


The arrival of 707s is being delayed by problems at Southwest Trains, in any case they are already spoken for on metro services. By my calculation it would take 6 sets to maintain the half hourly service. If they were to be 8 cars that would ned 12 4 cars, this could be covered by 377/5 along with the Victoria services the whole sub class would be allocated to Maidstone line services.

That’s true. Plus it might be too long a journey to have a train without toilets.

Do you know if the plan is still to create a new link of drivers at Ashford to staff these services? If not I imagine the work will be split between Ashford and Victoria.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

T


That’s true. Plus it might be too long a journey to have a train without toilets.

Do you know if the plan is still to create a new link of drivers at Ashford to staff these services? If not I imagine the work will be split between Ashford and Victoria.

At last check the still-unused Ashford Thameslink drivers will be TUPEd in and this will be their only work.

 

[Class 466]

At last check the still-unused Ashford Thameslink drivers will be TUPEd in and this will be their only work.

Given they currently work Sevenoaks to Blackfriars (Welwyn GC from May) - what depot is going to cover those turns?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Given they currently work Sevenoaks to Blackfriars (Welwyn GC from May) - what depot is going to cover those turns?

Well in theory you’ll have Welwyn and Orpington drivers doing it…

 

[43066]

At last check the still-unused Ashford Thameslink drivers will be TUPEd in and this will be their only work.

I haven’t kept up with this. Is the planned GTR Ashford - Welling Garden City (IIRC) service officially dead?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I haven’t kept up with this. Is the planned GTR Ashford - Welling Garden City (IIRC) service officially dead?

Ashford to Cambridge it was supposed to be, ridiculously via Swanley / London Bridge (despite the most dubious of pathing and the biggest risk to performance for the majority of the SE Network accordingly). It is now dead, hence SE recruiting Maidstone East conductors and a planned TUPE of those Ashford TL drivers into a special link that will require 465/466/377 traction and barely any routes except one assumes Victoria and Blackfriars to Ashford via Swanley. Wouldn’t surprise me if they have to fight for the release days to route learn Bickley to Ashford via Orpington / Tonbridge and Otford to Sevenoaks.

 

[cle]

I understood this was in addition to Victoria-Maidstone services, but it sounds as if when it goes to half-hourly, it will replace those. In that case, what will be running in those slots out of Victoria? 2tph to Hayes via Lewisham was always mentioned, but then Bromley is certainly down on fasts to Victoria - so that seems a different need. Any ideas?

Also, Denmark Hill did have the hourly Gillingham/Dover call. Seems this would only be in the peak Ashfords, 2-3tpd. It actually has a lot of off-peak, reverse-flow and weekend use due to the hospitals (and Overground which is used at all times too) so I wonder if that will change.

 

[bramling]

I haven’t kept up with this. Is the planned GTR Ashford - Welling Garden City (IIRC) service officially dead?

Ashford to Welwyn hasn't ever been a plan AFAIK.

The plans were originally, IIRC, Sevenoaks-Welwyn and Tattenham Corner-Cambridge. The second of those became Maidstone-Cambridge, with extensions from and to Ashford only to access somewhere to stable.

It is Maidstone-Cambridge which is essentially dead, or if not quite dead then very heavily in the long grass. One of the issues with it is I'm not sure where the 700/0 to run it would come from, pre-Covid the fleet was already heavily subscribed, the not-originally-envisaged long run out to Rainham must take up more units than Caterham/Tattenham Corner. We covered in another thread recently that Sevenoaks-Welwyn doesn't requite any additional units compared to the current split service.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I understood this was in addition to Victoria-Maidstone services, but it sounds as if when it goes to half-hourly, it will replace those. In that case, what will be running in those slots out of Victoria? 2tph to Hayes via Lewisham was always mentioned, but then Bromley is certainly down on fasts to Victoria - so that seems a different need. Any ideas?

Also, Denmark Hill did have the hourly Gillingham/Dover call. Seems this would only be in the peak Ashfords, 2-3tpd. It actually has a lot of off-peak, reverse-flow and weekend use due to the hospitals (and Overground which is used at all times too) so I wonder if that will change.

Not quite. The half-hourly Ashford to Victoria, which will then only need to make select calls between Maidstone and Bromley, will remain. This half-hourly service is overlaid, via Catford, and becomes the only ‘fast’ service that way; as the Gillingham stopping train is ditched and the half-hourly Ramsgate / Dover gets rolled into that mix and picks up stops such as Sole Street and Farningham Road.

South Eastern will remain obliged to supply a half-hourly Cannon Street - Medway - Thanet peak operation, as well as an additional half-hourly overlaid peak service from Victoria or Blackfriars which may call at Denmark Hill if the paths identified allow.

 

[brad465]

Not quite. The half-hourly Ashford to Victoria, which will then only need to make select calls between Maidstone and Bromley, will remain. This half-hourly service is overlaid, via Catford, and becomes the only ‘fast’ service that way; as the Gillingham stopping train is ditched and the half-hourly Ramsgate / Dover gets rolled into that mix and picks up stops such as Sole Street and Farningham Road.

South Eastern will remain obliged to supply a half-hourly Cannon Street - Medway - Thanet peak operation, as well as an additional half-hourly overlaid peak service from Victoria or Blackfriars which may call at Denmark Hill if the paths identified allow.

This is what I believed would happen, except I though the MDE-BFR services would be making select calls between Maidstone and Bromley (that's what the preliminary service starting next month is doing). Presumably the MDE peak services to/from Blackfriars will just be absorbed into this new timetable arrangement. Do we know what rolling stock will be used for the new MDE line services? The Gillingham stopping services were usually 375/377/465 (in theory all 3 could be allocated somewhere on the same day), so I would expect more of those would be drafted in, as the MDE line is currently 377 dominant, with a few 375 sets, and pre-covid a few 465 peak workings existed.

 

[4BEP]

T


That’s true. Plus it might be too long a journey to have a train without toilets.

Do you know if the plan is still to create a new link of drivers at Ashford to staff these services? If not I imagine the work will be split between Ashford and Victoria.

This is what I believed would happen, except I though the MDE-BFR services would be making select calls between Maidstone and Bromley (that's what the preliminary service starting next month is doing). Presumably the MDE peak services to/from Blackfriars will just be absorbed into this new timetable arrangement. Do we know what rolling stock will be used for the new MDE line services? The Gillingham stopping services were usually 375/377/465 (in theory all 3 could be allocated somewhere on the same day), so I would expect more of those would be drafted in, as the MDE line is currently 377 dominant, with a few 375 sets, and pre-covid a few 465 peak workings existed.

Stabling capacity for 6 class 700/0s had been created at Ashford fot the TL services so it seems obvious to use this for the Blackfriars services. This then suggests drivers would be rostered from there.

 

[ComUtoR]

Stabling capacity for 6 class 700/0s had been created at Ashford fot the TL services so it seems obvious to use this for the Blackfriars services. This then suggests drivers would be rostered from there.

If the GTR Drivers are getting TUPEd over to SE and 700s are then used for the Maidstone service. Does that mean The 700s are subleased to SE or that another arrangement will be in place for SE Drivers to use GTR rolling stock ?

If the 700s are being used and driven by (potentially ex) GTR Drivers then why TUPE them ?

 

[Class 466]

Well in theory you’ll have Welwyn and Orpington drivers doing it…

So long as there’s enough spare currently

If the GTR Drivers are getting TUPEd over to SE and 700s are then used for the Maidstone service. Does that mean The 700s are subleased to SE or that another arrangement will be in place for SE Drivers to use GTR rolling stock ?

If the 700s are being used and driven by (potentially ex) GTR Drivers then why TUPE them ?

Existing Southeastern stock is going to be used for this service, no extra space is available until Chart Leacon is finished (that seems to have gone a little quiet).

I was led to believe this new service was going to be worked entirely by Southeastern (Ashford has seen a huge increase in recruitment). I doubt there are 6 700/0s actually spare without taking them off the 2Cxx KGX - CBG services

 

[ComUtoR]

Existing Southeastern stock is going to be used for this service, no extra space is available until Chart Leacon is finished (that seems to have gone a little quiet).

I was led to believe this new service was going to be worked entirely by Southeastern (Ashford has seen a huge increase in recruitment). I doubt there are 6 700/0s actually spare without taking them off the 2Cxx KGX - CBG services

I've heard many many rumours about what is and isn't happening.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Whatever happens, I only hope that the 1/2 hourly Victoria-Ashfords remain.

Don't fancy this going over solely to TL with services being delayed/screwed/cancelled due to delays elsewhere

 

[bramling]

So long as there’s enough spare currently

Existing Southeastern stock is going to be used for this service, no extra space is available until Chart Leacon is finished (that seems to have gone a little quiet).

I was led to believe this new service was going to be worked entirely by Southeastern (Ashford has seen a huge increase in recruitment). I doubt there are 6 700/0s actually spare without taking them off the 2Cxx KGX - CBG services

There's no way sufficient 700/0 are spare based on pre-Covid timetables. Indeed both 700 fleets are pretty much spoken for, albeit reliability isn't where it should be.

You could squeeze a few units out of the GN side by running the Cambridge/KX Saturday service all week, IIRC this saves two units - at a cost to reliability, albeit less critical with the service now not running through the core. Abandoning Welwyn/Sevenoaks would save a further three units, but this doesn't seem to be the plan. There could be scope to find a few units on the other parts of Thameslink, but only by not returning to pre-Covid service levels. There's also the issue of what happens with the GN peak extras now the 365s are gone - assuming the 379s come over, GN will still have to retain some 387/1s, but the more 387/1s retained on the GN side the less ability there will be to eliminate both the 313 and 455 fleets, if they want to do that then it's going to seriously squeeze the Electrostar family.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Cambridge - Maidstone East isn't happening, as has been said by other people many times before.

 

[bramling]

Cambridge - Maidstone East isn't happening, as has been said by other people many times before.

Has this actually been *officially* announced, though?

It seems to be more a case of provide the SE service to assuage Kent, and work on the basis people will quietly forget about the through service to/from the core.

The industry is very obviously, behind the scenes, not taking Cambridge-Maidstone forwards, but seems reluctant to commit this in public.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure it will never happen, just as there are options to build more 700s or lengthen the existing 8 cars, but it certainly isn't happening anytime soon.

WGC to Sevenoaks should start in the summer timetable. Plenty of route learning has taken place for months, and I assume that with so few services per day they will have enough drivers ready by May.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City, is this intended to run via Swanley and Catford, or Orpington and Catford?

Although south of the Thames is a foreign country to me, i recall that in the days of the 319s on Thameslink, it was Sevenoaks - Kentish Town via Swanley and Catford (back in 2015).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Regarding the Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City, is this intended to run via Swanley and Catford, or Orpington and Catford?

Although south of the Thames is a foreign country to me, i recall that in the days of the 319s on Thameslink, it was Sevenoaks - Kentish Town via Swanley and Catford (back in 2015).

It will run via Bat & Ball, Swanley and Catford.

 

[bramling]

Regarding the Sevenoaks - Welwyn Garden City, is this intended to run via Swanley and Catford, or Orpington and Catford?

Although south of the Thames is a foreign country to me, i recall that in the days of the 319s on Thameslink, it was Sevenoaks - Kentish Town via Swanley and Catford (back in 2015).

It is the same as the current split service, just joined up. The current paths are designed round this.

The Cambridge-KX service will no longer interwork - it hasn’t been doing so since Covid anyway. This does open up the possibility of making the current all-week Saturday service permanent, but no idea if GTR ever will do that.

 

[adrock1976]

It will run via Bat & Ball, Swanley and Catford.

It is the same as the current split service, just joined up. The current paths are designed round this.

The Cambridge-KX service will no longer interwork - it hasn’t been doing so since Covid anyway. This does open up the possibility of making the current all-week Saturday service permanent, but no idea if GTR ever will do that.

Thanks both.

Regarding the reference I made to Kentish Town in 2015, I now remember that was when Blackfriars and London Bridge were being rebuilt, hence Kentish Town seemed to be somewhere to send the Sevenoaks trains out of the way.

Although the TOC code was Thameslink, were these the ones that had the drivers from Southeastern?

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks both.

Regarding the reference I made to Kentish Town in 2015, I now remember that was when Blackfriars and London Bridge were being rebuilt, hence Kentish Town seemed to be somewhere to send the Sevenoaks trains out of the way.

Although the TOC code was Thameslink, were these the ones that had the drivers from Southeastern?

Blackfriars was long since finished by 2015.

 

[MML]

With TL operating Welwyn-Sevenoaks, the bay platforms at Blackfriars become available for a Blackfriars-Ashford service. If TL have drivers at Ashford and 700/0 units, why don't they operate it themselves. 700/0 units are currently used on Royston and Cambridge services to Kings X. If all Kings X services became GN 379 or 389 workings, then would sufficient 700 units become available?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

With TL operating Welwyn-Sevenoaks, the bay platforms at Blackfriars become available for a Blackfriars-Ashford service. If TL have drivers at Ashford and 700/0 units, why don't they operate it themselves. 700/0 units are currently used on Royston and Cambridge services to Kings X. If all Kings X services became GN 379 or 389 workings, then would sufficient 700 units become available?

Don't through workings improve utilisation of 700/0's so they don't need so many overall?

 

[bramling]

With TL operating Welwyn-Sevenoaks, the bay platforms at Blackfriars become available for a Blackfriars-Ashford service. If TL have drivers at Ashford and 700/0 units, why don't they operate it themselves. 700/0 units are currently used on Royston and Cambridge services to Kings X. If all Kings X services became GN 379 or 389 workings, then would sufficient 700 units become available?

If King’s Cross to Cambridge went over to something else then this would release 8x 700/0. But at a cost of 16x 4-car units. But for the short platforms, 365s would have been ideally suited.

But if SE have sufficient Electrostars, which presumably they do, then this is solution looking for problem territory. It would have been a way of providing extra stock for SE, though.

Don't through workings improve utilisation of 700/0's so they don't need so many overall?

Not necessarily. Welwyn-Sevenoaks will use the same number of units as the split service. The split service is quite clever as it halves the turnaround time of the Cambridge service at the times when the Welwyns run. The Cambridge service otherwise gets 31 minutes, which is quite generous.

 

[Class 466]

With TL operating Welwyn-Sevenoaks, the bay platforms at Blackfriars become available for a Blackfriars-Ashford service. If TL have drivers at Ashford and 700/0 units, why don't they operate it themselves. 700/0 units are currently used on Royston and Cambridge services to Kings X. If all Kings X services became GN 379 or 389 workings, then would sufficient 700 units become available?

Welwyn to Sevenoaks is only ever going to be peak only. Off peak will still use Platform 3 at BFR. SE will use 4.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I had a look at the timings of those Maidstone Trains that stopped at Denmark Hill and those that didn’t. Off Peak they took 1 hr 6m whilst on peak they took 1hr 13 minutes so I looked to see how much a difference the extra stop made. Noting that the Off Peak Trains followed closer behind that Sevenoaks Service than the Peaks (Passing Denmark Hill at XX51 in the former Stopping at XX54 I the latter (with the Sevenoaks Service at XX47)) I theorised that the difference maybe that off peak the Sevenoaks would move over to the Holborn Slows Allowing the Maidstone’s free run on the Fasts.


Turns out I was working under a completely false assumption that the time savings were between Bromley South and Blackfriars whilst in fact they were all the country end (less stops) and the actual timings Up of Bromley South were 24 minutes Peak with stop, 26 minutes off peak without!


So i wasn’t comparing like for like but as suggested by others adding a stop at Denmark Hill if going by Catford really doesn’t seem to make that much of a difference.



I was looking at trains from Maidstone East to Blackfriars by Catford 17 March