Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[NorthKent1989]

I'm not sure if I am getting muddled up with something else (south of the Thames is a foreign country to me), but with Blackfriars - Maidstone freeing up the paths at Victoria, would this enable the Victoria - Bellingham short working to run as compensation for when London Overground took over the route via Peckham Rye with trains running to Clapham Junction?

I recall this was mentioned back in 2012, and the Victoria - Bellingham short workings would be introduced after the Thameslink 2000 [sic] project was complete.

The Victoria to Bellingham shuttle was mentioned a lot during the early 2010s as a potential replacement for the old London Bridge to Victoria via Peckham service, the introduction of the Overground effectively severed Clapham High Street & Wandsworth Road from both central London terminals so the Bellingham service was supposed to fill the void on the Victoria end.

I suppose this could be looked into, as I think it could be a useful service.

 

[JonathanH]

I suppose this could be looked into, as I think it could be a useful service.

It would have been limited to five coaches by the platforms at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street and went nowhere important.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/towards-the-start-of-a-new-era-on-the-south-london-line/

East London Line Extension to the rescue

Around the time of the Bellingham proposal it was dawning on a lot of people that if ELLX2 (London Overground to Clapham Junction) was open it would do a lot to mitigate the problem of withdrawal of SLL services. In fact with 4tph it would probably be more beneficial than the 2tph Network Rail proposal. As is often the case the problem was a lack of money to pay for it.

TfL and others were arguing the case that the DfT really ought to pay, as it was critical to get this up and running before works commenced at London Bridge. Not surprisingly, the DfT was having none of this. In a bit of realpolitik, TfL and the mayor came to an agreement with the DfT that the proposed Victoria-Bellingham services could be abandoned if the money that the DfT would save was put towards ELLX2.

Time has proven no real hardship about the lack of a link to Victoria.

 

[brad465]

I imagine the problem with a Victoria-Bellingham service now would be the pathing cost trying to turn a train around there without a 3rd platform. I'm not familiar with whether or not turning trains around in the platforms at Bellingham is possible, but if it is one platform would be blocked for 5-7 mins, and if not possible an even longer shunt outside the station would be required, on a line that has 4tph all stations and 1-2tph non-stop between Denmark Hill and Bromley South on top.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It would have been limited to five coaches by the platforms at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street and went nowhere important.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/towards-the-start-of-a-new-era-on-the-south-london-line/



Time has proven no real hardship about the lack of a link to Victoria.

Thanks for the link.

I imagine the problem with a Victoria-Bellingham service now would be the pathing cost trying to turn a train around there without a 3rd platform. I'm not familiar with whether or not turning trains around in the platforms at Bellingham is possible, but if it is one platform would be blocked for 5-7 mins, and if not possible an even longer shunt outside the station would be required, on a line that has 4tph all stations and 1-2tph non-stop between Denmark Hill and Bromley South on top.

Also aren’t there plans to make the Catford line 4tph off peak eventually? In this scenario I don’t think a Victoria to Bellingham shuttle would be able to fit in.

 

[JonathanH]

Also aren’t there plans to make the Catford line 4tph off peak eventually? In this scenario I don’t think a Victoria to Bellingham shuttle would be able to fit in.

The attraction of Bellingham was the carriage sidings just beyond the station so there was a ready place to turn the train. Something similar explains why there were one Plumstead terminators from London. However, Bellingham isn't really a traffic objective so it falls down as a proposal.

The Catford Loop was to have an Orpington to Luton (peak) / Kentish Town (off-peak) service under the original Thameslink plans in addition to the Sevenoaks to Welwyn GC (peak) / Blackfriars (off-peak) service. It will run in the peak to Luton from December and not off-peak.

 

[Horizon22]

I imagine the problem with a Victoria-Bellingham service now would be the pathing cost trying to turn a train around there without a 3rd platform. I'm not familiar with whether or not turning trains around in the platforms at Bellingham is possible, but if it is one platform would be blocked for 5-7 mins, and if not possible an even longer shunt outside the station would be required, on a line that has 4tph all stations and 1-2tph non-stop between Denmark Hill and Bromley South on top.

That is probably a key concern. The pathing along the Catford Loop is already much more intense although turnaround would be in the sidings so perhaps less severe impact. A bit like terminating at Sidcup but it doesn't take a non-zero amount of time to lock up a train and clear the running line of course.

As stated above, there's been no major concerns regarding the loss of London terminals services for Wandsworth Rd / Clapham High St. Most times I've seen them they are very sparsely used stations generally and have a good LO frequency to Clapham Junction and then a turn-up-and-go from there. There has however has been a parliamentary service from London Victoria the past few years at I think around 0526 (although not currently running, probably due to Covid).

 

[SE%Traveller]

If I remember correctly the Thameslink Programme was sold to Catford Loop passengers as providing a Victoria with a 5 minute same platform change at Nunhead with the Victoria Dartford/Gravesend Service in both directions and was one of the reasons given for the 10/20 interval pattern.

Didn’t quite work out that way, for those returning home there was a 15 minute wait for the connection and the 4tph was never delivered at the weekends.

Bit hazy on it as I use Denmark Hill so the Victoria connection wasn’t my main interest but do remember that as a justification for the interval pattern.

 

[cle]

I understood the 4tph Catford (Orpington on top of the Sevenoaks) was implemented before the pandy, and that effectively took up the path of the Bellingham service - which was designed to offer more than 2tph to the likes of Crofton Park and Catford. The outer stations are more quiet - but ideally they would all have 4tph - with some room for freight and the odd semi-fast, per this thread.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I understood the 4tph Catford (Orpington on top of the Sevenoaks) was implemented before the pandy, and that effectively took up the path of the Bellingham service - which was designed to offer more than 2tph to the likes of Crofton Park and Catford. The outer stations are more quiet - but ideally they would all have 4tph - with some room for freight and the odd semi-fast, per this thread.

oh the 4 tph was delivered during the working week, it was the weekends that never happened. Along with Sevenoaks Service going through the core in the peaks...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I strongly suspect the Core will be restricted to 20tph and left at that. Anything that could then be overlaid will be different - Cambridge to Maidstone was a daft idea to start with anyway...

If so another expensive waste of money installing ATO then but the industry is good at specifying something it then goes on to construct and then fails to use the capability created.

My personal view is the programme should have never have created such long distance journeys and it would have been better to have had additional infrastructure in the Finsbury Pk/Ali Pali corridor and West Hampsted/Cricklewood area to turn more trains around with decent onward connections at these stations to minimise the interaction with other service groups on MML/ECML.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

If so another expensive waste of money installing ATO then but the industry is good at specifying something it then goes on to construct and then fails to use the capability created.

My personal view is the programme should have never have created such long distance journeys and it would have been better to have had additional infrastructure in the Finsbury Pk/Ali Pali corridor and West Hampsted/Cricklewood area to turn more trains around with decent onward connections at these stations to minimise the interaction with other service groups on MML/ECML.

Core will reach 22tph as the Welwyn Sevenoaks is planned to eventually run, as shown in the ECML timetable change, and the Bedford - Littlehamptons and East Grinsteads, will at least return in the form of 1 or 2 trains a day, which is already happening for East Grinstead, so in the future, you'll probably get 22tph for one hour during the day. This is just my personal opinion of what will happen though.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If so another expensive waste of money installing ATO then but the industry is good at specifying something it then goes on to construct and then fails to use the capability created.

My personal view is the programme should have never have created such long distance journeys and it would have been better to have had additional infrastructure in the Finsbury Pk/Ali Pali corridor and West Hampsted/Cricklewood area to turn more trains around with decent onward connections at these stations to minimise the interaction with other service groups on MML/ECML.

One of my main criticisms regarding Thameslink in its new form is that it’s trying to be both an Inter-regional/urban main line and a cross-city tube line all in one, in some ways there’s nothing wrong in that but if something could up in the East Coast main line it could have a knock on effect on the suburban Catford line miles away.

I do think sometimes that aside from keeping the flagship Bedford-Brighton route, Thameslink might be better running Sutton to Luton, Plumstead to St. Albans, Beckenham Jnc to Cricklewood, or Sevenoaks to Welwyn type services

 

[Ianno87]

One of my main criticisms regarding Thameslink in its new form is that it’s trying to be both an Inter-regional/urban main line and a cross-city tube line all in one, in some ways there’s nothing wrong in that but if something could up in the East Coast main line it could have a knock on effect on the suburban Catford line miles away.

Thameslink performance is actually very, very good, in spite of its complexity. The whole "problem at X could affect Y" doesn't affect day-to-day operations as much as some on here would claim - it's only major disruption (e.g. fatalities, wires down etc.) that this is really a problem.

(Of course minor delays happens, but the service absorbs and recovers from it, which is the important bit - no railway is ever going to be immune to every single delay)

 

[James90012]

Regarding Blackfriars and 24tph, at some point it will need to happen - the capacity limits at London terminals have not gone away. It may not be needed for the next 5 or 10 years until demand recovers but those paths will be needed on the south side. There's also the counter view that perhaps Charing Cross/Cannon St were actually over capacity pre Covid so a more robust railway could be to reduce capacity there in favour of the core.

So, if the Maidstones will run to Blackfriars Bays for the long term, something else, at some point, will need to go through the core.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thameslink performance is actually very, very good, in spite of its complexity. The whole "problem at X could affect Y" doesn't affect day-to-day operations as much as some on here would claim - it's only major disruption (e.g. fatalities, wires down etc.) that this is really a problem.

(Of course minor delays happens, but the service absorbs and recovers from it, which is the important bit - no railway is ever going to be immune to every single delay)

Thats a very fair observation but there have been a number of major incidents on MML and ECML this year that have resulted in a collapse in TL services south of the river which can't be right. So the industry should be robustly challenged about how they deal with that scenario in contingency planning as I know in part crew route knowledge is an issue but given all stations through the core are bi di running starting back from any station is possible but rarely used.

 

[bramling]

Thameslink performance is actually very, very good, in spite of its complexity. The whole "problem at X could affect Y" doesn't affect day-to-day operations as much as some on here would claim - it's only major disruption (e.g. fatalities, wires down etc.) that this is really a problem.

(Of course minor delays happens, but the service absorbs and recovers from it, which is the important bit - no railway is ever going to be immune to every single delay)

Two points to make:

Firstly, we don’t have the full Thameslink service as was originally envisaged for May 18. No Welwyn-Sevenoaks, and perhaps more significantly no Cambridge-Maidstone.

Secondly, it’s all well and good to say it performs well when everything is working well. Fact is that there’s plenty of days when it really doesn’t run well, and the extra area covered means there’s more chances of a bad day happening. Likewise a route like King’s Cross to Peterborough had the benefit of being largely quadruple track and with six tracks in places (especially if one includes Hertford), the extended route to Horsham introduces more single points of failure on the journey, not least the core itself.

You’ve said yourself on occasions that for your own journeys you value having the Kings Lynn/Ely services available for your own journeys as a backstop, as well no doubt as the other 4tph to London which Cambridge is fortunate enough to have. Not all users have such luxuries available to them, hence why we see people from elsewhere reporting that they find their service unreliable. Anywhere on the Hitchin to Peterborough section will be finding likewise.

As for minor delays, the service simply does not absorb nor recover as well as it did before. Pre 18 a lot of minor issues could be absorbed in turnrounds. Nowadays it takes very little before stops are withdrawn or a service turned short of its destination. Not a problem if you’re at Cambridge as there’s only 7 other London services that hour, but more of a problem if you’re at Huntingdon and your service has run non-stop to London.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Two points to make:

Firstly, we don’t have the full Thameslink service as was originally envisaged for May 18. No Welwyn-Sevenoaks, and perhaps more significantly no Cambridge-Maidstone.

Secondly, it’s all well and good to say it performs well when everything is working well. Fact is that there’s plenty of days when it really doesn’t run well, and the extra area covered means there’s more chances of a bad day happening. Likewise a route like King’s Cross to Peterborough had the benefit of being largely quadruple track and with six tracks in places (especially if one includes Hertford), the extended route to Horsham introduces more single points of failure on the journey, not least the core itself.

You’ve said yourself on occasions that for your own journeys you value having the Kings Lynn/Ely services available for your own journeys as a backstop, as well no doubt as the other 4tph to London which Cambridge is fortunate enough to have. Not all users have such luxuries available to them, hence why we see people from elsewhere reporting that they find their service unreliable. Anywhere on the Hitchin to Peterborough section will be finding likewise.

As for minor delays, the service simply does not absorb nor recover as well as it did before. Pre 18 a lot of minor issues could be absorbed in turnrounds. Nowadays it takes very little before stops are withdrawn or a service turned short of its destination. Not a problem if you’re at Cambridge as there’s only 7 other London services that hour, but more of a problem if you’re at Huntingdon and your service has run non-stop to London.

Anywhere where TL is exclusive service provider get a raw deal when the service falls over and what is especially poor is the inability to run a service self contained to either the North or the South side when an incident is ongoing.

 

[4BEP]

From May 2022 (the original start date / time of the new super timetable according to the 2017 Invitation to Tender document), Southeastern will be running a half-hourly Blackfriars to Maidstone East service.

At the same time, the off-peak stopping service to Gillingham / Faversham / Dover ceases to exist, replaced by adding stops into the Ramsgate / Dover “fast” (now much slower) services. Victoria to Ashford stays half-hourly.

Based on capacity available, this means that the new service from Blackfriars to Maidstone is almost certain to run via Catford; one assumes with Denmark Hill stops.

Maidstone East will get a Conductor depot at the same time.

Stopping pattern will be as existing semi-fast plus Elephant and Castle.

 

[traingeek97]

Stopping pattern will be as existing semi-fast plus Elephant and Castle.

Is the service still expected to begin with the February timetable change? Do you think there's any chance 707s could be used on the route?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the service still expected to begin with the February timetable change? Do you think there's any chance 707s could be used on the route?

February?

 

[Gerard92]

Is the service still expected to begin with the February timetable change? Do you think there's any chance 707s could be used on the route?

looks like its starting on the 21/02/21, looking at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SE
Also seems to be using the 377 stock of 1F59 and no 707’s will be used

 

[30907]

looks like its starting on the 21/02/21, looking at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SE

That assumes nothing changes before than. The temporary cuts are only loaded for next week but...

 

[Class 466]

That assumes nothing changes before than. The temporary cuts are only loaded for next week but...

They’re going back to a full timetable from 31st January

 

[cle]

looks like its starting on the 21/02/21, looking at https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SE
Also seems to be using the 377 stock of 1F59 and no 707’s will be used

Interesting that Denmark Hill gets the peak Ashford calls. Hopefully it will expand in time to all.

 

[30907]

They’re going back to a full timetable from 31st January

Sorry, hadn't realised.

Interesting that Denmark Hill gets the peak Ashford calls.

Seems to have become the fashion.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They’re going back to a full timetable from 31st January

That's the first metro operator that's declared that so hopefully a good omen others won't be constrained by DofT for restoring the Dec21 timetable.

 

[Class 466]

That's the first metro operator that's declared that so hopefully a good omen others won't be constrained by DofT for restoring the Dec21 timetable.

The big difference is SE & LNER aren't being micromanaged by the DFT in the same way as other TOCs because they're part of OLR so there's no private company being paid a bonus to run the services.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The big difference is SE & LNER aren't being micromanaged by the DFT in the same way as other TOCs because they're part of OLR so there's no private company being paid a bonus to run the services.

Oh yes good observation although Northern haven't shown there hand yet but be interesting to see how far and quick other operators go to restoring Dec 21 TTs.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's the first metro operator that's declared that so hopefully a good omen others won't be constrained by DofT for restoring the Dec21 timetable.

DfT will have agreed this change, based on the evidence presented to them.

 

[4BEP]

Is the service still expected to begin with the February timetable change? Do you think there's any chance 707s could be used on the route?

Partial daytime service from Feb with full half hourly from May.

Partial daytime service from Feb with full half hourly from May.

The arrival of 707s is being delayed by problems at Southwest Trains, in any case they are already spoken for on metro services. By my calculation it would take 6 sets to maintain the half hourly service. If they were to be 8 cars that would ned 12 4 cars, this could be covered by 377/5 along with the Victoria services the whole sub class would be allocated to Maidstone line services.