Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[CBlue]

or West Anglia Main Line, yes.

anyone who says WAML, (pronounced “Whammel’) gets a hard stare from me. Same with “Gemmel”. Horrible.

So it does have some actual convention beyond a Wikipedia entry?

It certainly seems to have ended up in use across a few areas as a quick search on Google (other search engines are available) shows.

 

[Cowley]

We’d probably better get back on topic here before it gets too late…

 

[43102EMR]

I’ll start - how many exactly are expected to go into store over the next month or so?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ll start - how many exactly are expected to go into store over the next month or so?

Well twelve have gone already

 

[43102EMR]

Well twelve have gone already

Probably should have been more specific - are any more planning on going into store imminently, or are they making do with 18 sets?

 

[03_179]

Allocations

379001 - At Ilford

379002 - At Parkston (S)

379003 - At Parkston (S)

379004 - At Parkston (S)

379005 - At Ilford

379006 - At Ilford

379007 - At Orient Way CS

379008 - At Cambridge Sidings

379009 - At Parkston (S)

379010 - At Ilford

379011 - At Parkston (S)

379012 - At Cambridge Sidings

379013 - At Orient Way CS

379014 - At Ilford

379015 - At Parkston (S)

379016 - At Parkston (S)

379017 - At Ilford

379018 - At Parkston (S)

379019 - At Parkston (S)

379020 - At Parkston (S)

379021 - At Ilford

379022 - At Ilford

379023 - At Ilford

379024 - At Orient Way CS

379025 - At Orient Way CS

379026 - At Ilford

379027 - Not allocated

379028 - At Parkston (S)

379029 - At Cambridge Sidings

379030 - At Cambridge Sidings

 

[43102EMR]

Allocations

379001 - At Ilford

379002 - At Parkston (S)

379003 - At Parkston (S)

379004 - At Parkston (S)

379005 - At Ilford

379006 - At Ilford

379007 - At Orient Way CS

379008 - At Cambridge Sidings

379009 - At Parkston (S)

379010 - At Ilford

379011 - At Parkston (S)

379012 - At Cambridge Sidings

379013 - At Orient Way CS

379014 - At Ilford

379015 - At Parkston (S)

379016 - At Parkston (S)

379017 - At Ilford

379018 - At Parkston (S)

379019 - At Parkston (S)

379020 - At Parkston (S)

379021 - At Ilford

379022 - At Ilford

379023 - At Ilford

379024 - At Orient Way CS

379025 - At Orient Way CS

379026 - At Ilford

379027 - Not allocated

379028 - At Parkston (S)

379029 - At Cambridge Sidings

379030 - At Cambridge Sidings

So none are in service whatsoever today? Or will any be out later?

 

[03_179]

None are out and looks like they won't be.

Nearly all are mark N/Serviceable


Of course we all know things change at a moments notice on the railways

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can we assume they’re good as withdrawn now? Of course, there were none out on Monday and while two slipped out one Tuesday, there have been none out Wednesday or Thursday either. I remember someone on here saying the expensive lease renews at the start of February.

 

[03_179]

None out today either.

They are stored on various locations (listed on my blog as always)

They were suposed to be moving to GN but that is a bit unlikely now unless certain things change.

 

[43102EMR]

Can we assume they’re good as withdrawn now? Of course, there were none out on Monday and while two slipped out one Tuesday, there have been none out Wednesday or Thursday either. I remember someone on here saying the expensive lease renews at the start of February.

The timetable increases on Monday - I wouldn’t assume this as of yet…

 

[Bikeman78]

The timetable increases on Monday - I wouldn’t assume this as of yet…

I agree, I've tried to apply some numbers to the situation.

December 2021 the situation on West Anglia was:
Class 317 six pairs
Class 379 13 pairs and one single
Class 720 4 singles
Total 24 trains in service.

I think there are 12 x class 720 this week so assuming they can turn out 10 pairs of class 317 (leaving 3 units spare) that's only 22 trains. So to avoid using class 379s they'll need two extra class 720 turns and also there needs to be something spare to cover failures.

 

[Railperf]

I agree, I've tried to apply some numbers to the situation.

December 2021 the situation on West Anglia was:
Class 317 six pairs
Class 379 13 pairs and one single
Class 720 4 singles
Total 24 trains in service.

I think there are 12 x class 720 this week so assuming they can turn out 10 pairs of class 317 (leaving 3 units spare) that's only 22 trains. So to avoid using class 379s they'll need two extra class 720 turns and also there needs to be something spare to cover failures.

There were only 2 x Class 317 pairs out yesterday. So the remainder of the fleet will need warming up - assuming they are all serviceable. Assuming that GA accept a pair of 720s each week..then it is possible to reduce the need for 317s or 379s to be used.
In the worst case, some GEML diagrams could revert to 321 operation to free up more 720s for WA.

 

[Alfie1014]

There were only 2 x Class 317 pairs out yesterday. So the remainder of the fleet will need warming up - assuming they are all serviceable. Assuming that GA accept a pair of 720s each week..then it is possible to reduce the need for 317s or 379s to be used.
In the worst case, some GEML diagrams could revert to 321 operation to free up more 720s for WA.

Not sure where those 321s might come from, the GE side frequencies increase too, there are 4 extra peak services on the outer suburban routes from Monday morning plus some of the branches (Braintree and Colch Town) become through services all day increasing unit mileage. Matters not helped by the inability to couple 720s in Liverpool Street I believe.

 

[Class 466]

None out today either.

They are stored on various locations (listed on my blog as always)

They were suposed to be moving to GN but that is a bit unlikely now unless certain things change.

What’s changed on the GN front?

 

[03_179]

What’s changed on the GN front?

Nothing ...
717, 387/1 and 700s still in place.

 

[Railperf]

Not sure where those 321s might come from, the GE side frequencies increase too,

Are all the available 321s in use? Could off-peak 720 diagrams be reduced to 5-car to spread the fleet? Do we know how many WA and GEML diagrams will exist next week and how many 720s are available to fill them?
I'm assuming all drivers sign them now.

 

[CDM]

Which is a major flaw of the thinking 5 years ago

Unless you scrap new, but displaced stock or there's an exact requirement for them (e.g. the EMR 360s), you end up creating non standard issues elsewhere (e.g. the 707s now at Southeastern, operating alongside Networkers and 376s on the same routes)

Indeed. When the Class 360's were bought to replace the Class 312's, they weren't what FGE actually wanted - FGE wanted more Class 321's (and Eversholt were keen to provide) but Silverlink wouldn't release them and the nomadic 322's weren't enough on their own, so they had no choice but to buy new.

Eversholt eventually (years later) got their wish to consolidate all the 321/322 fleet in one place in East Anglia but sadly, politics and the ridiculous way franchise bidding meant rolling stock cost books get cooked, means that has now resulted in the entire fleet having no home...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2022 ==

So it does have some actual convention beyond a Wikipedia entry?

It certainly seems to have ended up in use across a few areas as a quick search on Google (other search engines are available) shows.

WAML is the commonly used industry abbreviation for the West Anglia Mainline, yes.
Similarly, GEML is the commonly used indusrty abbreviation for the Great Eastern Mainline.

"Whammel" as a way of saying "WAML" is in common use in the industry, yes

(So none of the above are just a Wikipedia thing, no...)

"Gemmel" is not commonly used for GEML in the industry (and I hope it doesn't become so!) - it's normally just called "the GE".

 

[Bikeman78]

There were only 2 x Class 317 pairs out yesterday. So the remainder of the fleet will need warming up - assuming they are all serviceable. Assuming that GA accept a pair of 720s each week..then it is possible to reduce the need for 317s or 379s to be used.
In the worst case, some GEML diagrams could revert to 321 operation to free up more 720s for WA.

To be fair there were four pairs of 317s yesterday. One pair appears to have stood in for a 720 to Cambridge all day which proves my point about spares. The 317s are happy to sit around for weeks and then go straight back to service, e.g. 317515 sat in Cambridge, near platform 6, for over four weeks then suddenly appeared back in service on the Hertford line.

Fair point about the 321s, I think only around half are being used this week.

Regarding 379s, there are still three single sets dotted around Cambridge. They are still moving around, e.g. on Wednesday 379006 ran from Cambridge to Ilford with 379030 going the other way.

 

[dk1]

Are all the available 321s in use? Could off-peak 720 diagrams be reduced to 5-car to spread the fleet? Do we know how many WA and GEML diagrams will exist next week and how many 720s are available to fill them?
I'm assuming all drivers sign them now.

All WA & GE drivers should sign them now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ll be honest, the constant murmurings about transfer to Great Northern continues to baffle me. It started off as speculation and “what should happen” some years ago, and then somewhere along the line it became “what will happen”, despite there being absolutely no confirmation… goodness, even Richard Clinnick has said nothing about it, and we all know the ex RAIL journalist likes to tweet interesting updates on rolling stock news.

I’m just dying for official confirmation that will stop me thinking everyone’s still speculating, even those who are rail staff.

 

[physics34]

I’ll be honest, the constant murmurings about transfer to Great Northern continues to baffle me. It started off as speculation and “what should happen” some years ago, and then somewhere along the line it became “what will happen”, despite there being absolutely no confirmation… goodness, even Richard Clinnick has said nothing about it, and we all know the ex RAIL journalist likes to tweet interesting updates on rolling stock news.

I’m just dying for official confirmation that will stop me thinking everyone’s still speculating, even those who are rail staff.

Yep, i work for GTR and have seen nothing official although various people in higher places have said that they believed said cascades were happening. I may be wrong but i think the 387/1s are leased to southern and then sub leased to GN, on paper anyway?

 

[bramling]

Yep, i work for GTR and have seen nothing official although various people in higher places have said that they believed said cascades were happening. I may be wrong but i think the 387/1s are leased to southern and then sub leased to GN, on paper anyway?

I’ve also heard from reliable sources that this has “cooled down”. 379 high leasing charges struck again? May well be some politics going on, though.

Perhaps GTR wish they’d just kept the 365s after all?!

 

[43096]

Yep, i work for GTR and have seen nothing official although various people in higher places have said that they believed said cascades were happening. I may be wrong but i think the 387/1s are leased to southern and then sub leased to GN, on paper anyway?

There's no such thing as leased to Southern, as Southern is not a separate company. It's a trading name of Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd., so all "Southern", "Gatwick Express", "Thameslink" and "Great Northern" trains are leased to GTR. As an employee, I'd have thought you'd be aware of this based on what your payslip says?

 

[43102EMR]

I spoke to a GA driver tonight, and I was told two things re the 379s’ future:

1) All 379s to be withdrawn by the end of Feb
2) 379s will transfer to GN at some point

Some will re-enter service as part of the TTC next week, but aim is to phase them out completely by the end of the month - how reliable this is, I’m not sure, as this isn’t coming “from the top” so to speak…

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I’ll be honest, the constant murmurings about transfer to Great Northern continues to baffle me. It started off as speculation and “what should happen” some years ago, and then somewhere along the line it became “what will happen”, despite there being absolutely no confirmation… goodness, even Richard Clinnick has said nothing about it, and we all know the ex RAIL journalist likes to tweet interesting updates on rolling stock news.

I’m just dying for official confirmation that will stop me thinking everyone’s still speculating, even those who are rail staff.

But this isn't a rumour made up by railuk forums. There are some genuine clues out in the public domain that a transfer was at least planned to happen. And a rail journalist not posting anything about it means nothing.

 

[43096]

I spoke to a GA driver tonight, and I was told two things re the 379s’ future:

1) All 379s to be withdrawn by the end of Feb
2) 379s will transfer to GN at some point

Some will re-enter service as part of the TTC next week, but aim is to phase them out completely by the end of the month - how reliable this is, I’m not sure, as this isn’t coming “from the top” so to speak…

I do enjoy it when someone quotes some driver/guard/platform bert about fleet moves to another TOC when they have zero involvement in such decision making - particularly about the transfer to GTR.

 

[DanNCL]

I may be wrong but i think the 387/1s are leased to southern and then sub leased to GN, on paper anyway?

That was the case initially when GTR only consisted of Thameslink and Great Northern, with Southern at the time being a standalone franchise. Since the incorporation of the Southern and Gatwick Express franchise into GTR in 2015, everything operating under the Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern and Gatwick Express brands is all generically leased to GTR.

But this isn't a rumour made up by railuk forums. There are some genuine clues out in the public domain that a transfer was at least planned to happen. And a rail journalist not posting anything about it means nothing.

Indeed. It’s always possible for a journalist either not to know, or to know but been instructed not to mention it until a certain time.

 

[physics34]

There's no such thing as leased to Southern, as Southern is not a separate company. It's a trading name of Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd., so all "Southern", "Gatwick Express", "Thameslink" and "Great Northern" trains are leased to GTR. As an employee, I'd have thought you'd be aware of this based on what your payslip says?

Lol feisty.
I thought for official reasons they maybe still down as 'southern' rather than everything being merged

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I do enjoy it when someone quotes some driver/guard/platform bert about fleet moves to another TOC when they have zero involvement in such decision making - particularly about the transfer to GTR.

This is an unessecarily aggressive response to a simple mistake. Its an easy mistake that anyone can make.