Stopping patterns for intercity Euston-West Midlands services in the 1970s/early 80s

[concerned1]

I was wondering if someone could enlighten me as to the stopping patterns of these services in the early 70s to early 80s. Euston to Wolverhampton services now typically include three stations that didn’t exist at this point: Milton Keynes Central (1982), Birmingham International (1976ish), and Sandwell and Dudley (1983), which was formerly known as Oldbury and did not have platforms long enough to take long formations.

I assume these would have been 86 and mk2 hauled from electrification onwards? Was there typically a stop between Watford Junction and Rugby? E.g Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley etc? Was the Northampton Loop more favoured by intercity services? Did services regularly continue on past Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury or somewhere else?

 

[Western Sunset]

Hampton-in-Arden had extended platforms to accommodate IC services and was used prior to B'ham Int being constructed. Didn't have such a comprehensive service as the later B'ham Int had though; up morning London trains and down evening ones rather than a full service throughout the day, if I recall.

 

[StephenHunter]

Not necessarily just 86s; the 81s-85s and 87s were around as well.

 

[Rescars]

In 1978/9 the normal pattern was non-stop Euston to Coventry, then International and New Street every half hour. One train each hour worked through to Wolverhampton, then to Oxley so loco could run round. Northampton loop only visited in emergencies. No stopping at Rugby. Some, but not all stopped at Watford to set down / pick-up only. IIRC there were only a couple of through workings to Shrewsbury.

 

[Western Sunset]

By the late 70s, usually 86s/87s. Don't recall the earlier classes on a regular basis, if at all.

 

[The Planner]

Hampton-in-Arden had extended platforms to accommodate IC services and was used prior to B'ham Int being constructed. Didn't have such a comprehensive service as the later B'ham Int had though; up morning London trains and down evening ones rather than a full service throughout the day, if I recall.

I thought that was down to a top brass BR member living there? Much like the single service that conveniently started at Bath for XC.

 

[tbwbear]

Quick look at the down service in the 1972 LMR timetable - It shows an hourly service from Euston to the West Midlands leaving at XX15 and extended to Liverpool or Manchester in alternative hours. Extra XX45 trains ran in some hours - notably between 1545 and 1845.

Taking the standard stops, and using the 1215 as an example, Coventry 1328, New Street 1348, Wolverhampton 1411, ( on to Stafford 1431, Crewe 1458, Manchester 1539.)
Some morning and evening trains called at Hampton in Arden, some morning trains at Watford Junction.

Only one train, out of pattern at 0710, called at Rugby.

Edited to add - Not sure when it went half-hourly as described correctly below (10 and 40 off Euston) but certainly by 1974, as the XX45 was being used for Glasgow by then, so it could have been from 1974. At the same time, the practice of sending the Euston to Birmingham trains to Manchester or Liverpool (started in 1967) was ended. With the Birmingham / Wolverhampton alternating pattern introduced. I think the Birmingham-Liverpool or Birmingham-Manchester timings were then taken over by trains coming from Bristol - but can't be sure. Presumably Coventry passengers heading north suffered a bit as a result.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Normal pattern during the 1970s was the **10 past the hour services from Euston ran to Birmingham New Street, and the **40 past the hour ran to Wolverhampton. Coming up the Wolverhampton services generally left there at **29 past the hour, and arrived at Euston in just under the two hours at **24 past the hour. The Birmingham services departed at **18 past the hour taking just over the hour and a half to arrive at **54 past the hour. Some Early Morning and Evening Birmingham services were extended to/from Wolverhampton. While most only called at Coventry, Birmingham International, and Birmingham, during the early morning the Down trains called at Watford to pick up, and the late evening services called at Watford to Set Down. The odd service made a call at Rugby. The 0010 Wolverhampton called at Watford, Bletchley, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street.
There were only a handful of class 1s that called at Bletchley (before Milton Keynes opened), and were usually the Carlisle/Blackpool services, and even then it was just early morning and Late evening.
The **54 arrivals from Birmingham made the next **40 past back to Wolverhampton, and the **24 arrivals from Wolverhampton made the next **10 past the hour to Birmingham.
The services were normally 86/2 hauled with the odd 87 turning up. Only some of the very late evening trains produced the odd 85, where the sets were often Mark 1 or early Mark 2 types. Other AC types would sometimes turn up as a last minute substitute for a failure.
At that time there was just one weekday Shrewsbury working on the Up being the 0740 off there arriving at Euston at 1019, the return being the 1740 back to Shrewsbury. On Summer Saturdays the 0940 ran to Aberystwyth, an Up Working leaving there at 1000 and arriving in Euston at 1524. Both these trains normally were formed of Mark 1 sets rather than the weekday later Mark 2 types.

Then of course there were the hourly EMU 'Stoppers' taking around two and a half hours routed via Northampton and calling at most of the intermediate stations. The **21 past the hour from Birmingham would arrive at Euston at **54 past the hour, turning round to make the **05 past the hour back to Birmingham via Northampton. They were mostly 310s, with the odd 304 turning up occasionally.

 

[MarkWi72]

Normal pattern during the 1970s was the **10 past the hour services from Euston ran to Birmingham New Street, and the **40 past the hour ran to Wolverhampton. Coming up the Wolverhampton services generally left there at **29 past the hour, and arrived at Euston in just under the two hours at **24 past the hour. The Birmingham services departed at **18 past the hour taking just over the hour and a half to arrive at **54 past the hour. Some Early Morning and Evening Birmingham services were extended to/from Wolverhampton. While most only called at Coventry, Birmingham International, and Birmingham, during the early morning the Down trains called at Watford to pick up, and the late evening services called at Watford to Set Down. The odd service made a call at Rugby. The 0010 Wolverhampton called at Watford, Bletchley, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street.
There were only a handful of class 1s that called at Bletchley (before Milton Keynes opened), and were usually the Carlisle/Blackpool services, and even then it was just early morning and Late evening.
The **54 arrivals from Birmingham made the next **40 past back to Wolverhampton, and the **24 arrivals from Wolverhampton made the next **10 past the hour to Birmingham.
The services were normally 86/2 hauled with the odd 87 turning up. Only some of the very late evening trains produced the odd 85, where the sets were often Mark 1 or early Mark 2 types. Other AC types would sometimes turn up as a last minute substitute for a failure.
At that time there was just one weekday Shrewsbury working on the Up being the 0740 off there arriving at Euston at 1019, the return being the 1740 back to Shrewsbury. On Summer Saturdays the 0940 ran to Aberystwyth, an Up Working leaving there at 1000 and arriving in Euston at 1524. Both these trains normally were formed of Mark 1 sets rather than the weekday later Mark 2 types.

Then of course there were the hourly EMU 'Stoppers' taking around two and a half hours routed via Northampton and calling at most of the intermediate stations. The **21 past the hour from Birmingham would arrive at Euston at **54 past the hour, turning round to make the **05 past the hour back to Birmingham via Northampton. They were mostly 310s, with the odd 304 turning up occasionally.

Interesting thread. I grew up near Dudley Port as it happens. I recall trips to London with no or rare stops after Coventry (early 80s). Can't recall a Rugby stop. This had changed by the late 90s as I lived in London.

I used to go in Watery Lane box in the early 80s. My dad knew the Signalman. I remember the Aberystwyth train being headed by 2 x 25s most of the time.

 

[tbwbear]

Don't think many Birmingham trains ever stopped at Rugby.

Again in 1972.... apart from a couple of morning Manchester and Liverpool services, Rugby is mainly served (and with some gaps) hourly by the XX05, Barrow, Carlisle, Holyhead and Blackpool trains..

There was an hourly EMU from Rugby to Coventry - extended every two hours to Birmingham. Quite sparse.

 

[flymo]

Snippet of the down late-morning service from the '75 TT Table 66.

 

[Rescars]

Andy R A is quite right about the Shrewsburys. The set for the 07.40 up was stabled at Shrewsbury - and got very cold on winter nights! One other out of norm working was the 07.36 down (rather than 07.40) which was The Clansman, routed through Wolverhampton on its way to Inverness.

 

[hexagon789]

From the 1974 timetable when electrification to Glasgow commenced, the off-peak pattern from Euston was normally:

XX:10 Birmingham (mostly Coventry only, Watford and/or Hampton-in Arden served during peaks)
XX:40 Wolverhampton (Coventry & Birmingham NS only, same as above re peaks)
XX:45 Glasgow (mostly Carlisle & Preston only)
XX:50 Liverpool (mostly Runcorn only)
XX:55 Manchester (usually Stoke only)
XX:00 Carlisle/Blackpool/North Wales alternating every three hours (ie 0800 Blackpool, 0900 Carlisle, 1000 Bangor, 1100 Blackpool etc) - to Crewe stops at Rugby and Nuneaton even hours, Rugby and Stafford odd hours.

 

[tbwbear]

Snippet of the down late-morning service from the '75 TT Table 66.

Sorry to be a pain but if you have Table 65 handy ? Just out of interest, where were those XX00 trains from Euston heading in 1975 then?

I recall, XX45 was Glasgow, XX10 and XX40 were Birmingham. Was Manchester XX30 and Liverpool XX50 ?? Certainly by the late 70s XX05 was Blackpool, Carlisle etc..

Edited to add - I see that has been answered by hexagon789 above - thanks !!

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry to be a pain but if you have Table 65 handy ? Just out of interest, where were those XX00 trains from Euston heading in 1975 then?

I recall, XX45 was Glasgow, XX10 and XX40 were Birmingham. Was Manchester XX30 and Liverpool XX50 ?? Certainly by the late 70s XX05 was Blackpool, Carlisle etc..

See my post above

 

[Rescars]

Sorry to be a pain but if you have Table 65 handy ? Just out of interest, where were those XX00 trains from Euston heading in 1975 then?

I recall, XX45 was Glasgow, XX10 and XX40 were Birmingham. Was Manchester XX30 and Liverpool XX50 ?? Certainly by the late 70s XX05 was Blackpool, Carlisle etc..

Edited to add - I see that has been answered by hexagon789 above - thanks !!

IIRC the 12.00 ex Euston went to Blackpool.

 

[hexagon789]

IIRC the 12.00 ex Euston went to Blackpool.

Carlisle, as per the 3-hour alternating pattern for the XX:00 departure slot

 

[Taunton]

I assume these would have been 86 and mk2 hauled from electrification onwards?

I know the initial question was about 1970s, but from electrification (1967) the Birmingham services were mainly, if not wholly, Mk 1. 100mph stock on B4 or Commonwealth bogies, but still vacuum braked. Class 81 or 85 still extensively used, which gave a better ride than an 86 at high speed. These services then continued, alternately, semi-fast to Liverpool or Manchester

The service was initially hourly, but 30-minute intervals started to creep in with each timetable at peak hours. The big change was the May 1974 timetable, Birmingham half hourly all day. Liverpool did similar at that time, moving on from its initial 2-hourly service, which had had a few peak supplements, to an hourly service.

The timetable above shows 67 minutes Euston to Coventry, but in the service's early years after 1967, no speed recorders (apart from Cecil J Allen) or similar, there were apparently regular early arrivals at Coventry in under the hour, sometimes by several minutes, the loco having been run at well over 100mph

 

[Andy R. A.]

The timetable above shows 67 minutes Euston to Coventry, but in the service's early years after 1967, no speed recorders (apart from Cecil J Allen) or similar, there were apparently regular early arrivals at Coventry in under the hour, sometimes by several minutes, the loco having been run at well over 100mph

Certainly remember through the 1970s that generally an hour for the 82 miles between Rugby and Euston was the 'norm'. However on 'Good days' that was reduced to 50 minutes, not for one train but spread over many consecutive arrivals, train after train. The fastest I noted of that period was just 47 minutes, including a booked stop to Set Down at Watford !!!

 

[Magdalia]

As has already been stated the WCML timetable was completely recast for electrification to Glasgow in May 1974. Off peak the down "flight" of class 1 trains from Euston was:

xx40 Wolverhampton first stop Coventry
xx45 Glasgow first stop Preston
xx50 Liverpool first stop Runcorn
xx55 Manchester first stop Stoke or Crewe
xx00 rotating Blackpool, Carlisle, Holyhead first stop Rugby
xx05 spare
xx10 Birmingham first stop Coventry

Freight trains ran in the gap between the xx10 and xx40.

There were very few intermediate stops.

A flight of down trains in the early morning picked up at Watford Junction. In the afternoon only 1550 Liverpool, 1555 Manchester and 1600 Holyhead picked up at Watford Junction.

0655 Manchester, 0815 Liverpool (an odd out of pattern service) and 0900 Carlisle called at Bletchley.

The xx00 trains called at Rugby (allowed 58 minutes from Euston) and Crewe, also one but usually not both of Nuneaton and Stafford. The Nuneaton stops usually provided decent connections from East Anglia.

The non-stop Euston-Coventry runs were booked 67 minutes but for the down evening peak trains this was reduced to 63 minutes in the public timetable, though I understand it was 64½ minutes in the WTT.

Most of the fastest point to point runs were on trains picking up or setting down at Watford Junction. 5 up trains were booked 44 minutes Rugby to Watford Junction in the WTT, though 3 of the 5 show 45 minutes in the public timetable. The "Britain's Fastest Trains" article in Railway Magazine October 1974 gives lots of details. Appropriately the cover has a picture of the first class 87 hauled up Royal Scot at Glasgow Central.

 

[jfollows]

The non-stop Euston-Coventry runs were booked 67 minutes but for the down evening peak trains this was reduced to 63 minutes in the public timetable, though I understand it was 64½ minutes in the WTT.

In the 1974 timetable:
1G39 17:10 Euston-Wolverhampton was 18:14½ WTT arrival into Coventry, advertised 18:13.
Similar timings for 1G36 15:40, 1G37 16:10, 1G38 16:40, 1G40 17:20, 1G43 18:40, 1G44 19:10, 1G43 19:40 & 1G46 20:40 departures from Euston. Very consistent.
[1J33 17:40 Euston-Shrewsbury had one minute of pathing time before Willesden West London Junction so was booked a minute longer to Coventry, likewise 1G41 18:10 Euston-Wolverhampton, to fill in the two gaps in the list above.]

Today's services manage something like 57½ minutes with a stop at Watford.

 

[Taunton]

There were some speed limit improvements, though I don't recall which year, at points where a reduction from 100mph had been required. Linslade Tunnel had some work done, and the reverse curves past Wolverton works were realigned; possibly some others as well. By the time of the 1974 changes (which was only 7 years after electrification) most of the stock in use was air braked - but not all. I recall that I took a Sunday evening service several times around 1990 from Liverpool to Euston, which ran to normal times but was always formed of one of the Network South East Mk 1 sets otherwise used on Northampton to Euston peak services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a slight aside, with all the non-stop services mentioned there (which look very similar to Virgin VHF!), what sort of service did Wigan NW and Warrington BQ have in this era? Was it just the three-hourly Carlisle plus some Birminghams and local services to e.g. Liverpool?

 

[jfollows]

As a slight aside, with all the non-stop services mentioned there (which look very similar to Virgin VHF!), what sort of service did Wigan NW and Warrington BQ have in this era? Was it just the three-hourly Carlisle plus some Birminghams and local services to e.g. Liverpool?

Down services at Wigan from London:
1P15 08:00 Euston-Blackpool North 10:39
1P18 09:00 Euston-Carlisle 11:42
1P26 11:00 Euston-Blackpool North 13:41
1P62 12:00 Euston-Carlisle 14:40
1P63 14:00 Euston-Blackpool North 16:42
1P70 15:00 Euston-Carlisle 17:43
1P36 17:05 Euston-Blackpool North 19:40
1P79 18:05 Euston-Carlisle 20:47
1P51 20:35 Euston-Blackpool North 23:10

As mentioned earlier, the Euston-Glasgow services didn't call, nor did the Birmingham-Glasgow services in fact. Just the "on the hour" departures which didn't go to Holyhead.

EDIT and the only other through down WCML services at Wigan SX were:
1P16 07:32 Crewe-Carlisle 08:08
1S46 07:48 Liverpool-Edinburgh 08:22
2P82 09:17 EMU Crewe-Preston 09:54
1S39 12:41 Liverpool-Edinburgh 13:13
OT I know but I was surprised at the lack of calling services at Wigan NW back then.

 

[Magdalia]

The original poster asked about the new stations.

Birmingham International first appears in the May 1976 timetable. Most but not all Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton trains call there from the outset, though 2 morning up trains and 4 evening down trains called at Hampton in Arden instead. By May 1978 the 4 down trains are reduced to 1, with this and the 2 up trains also calling at Birmingham International. The Hampton in Arden calls end in May 1980.

Milton Keynes Central first appears in the May 1982 timetable. By then there has been much attrition to the 1974 timetable especially the June 1981 cuts. Milton Keynes Central does a bit better than Bletchley, but not much. 0650 to Manchester calls there, a flight of 0850 Liverpool, 0855 Manchester, 0900 Bangor and 0930 Carlisle, then 1200 to Blackpool and that's it. In particular Milton Keynes to the West Midlands is still only on the stopping service via Northampton.

Sandwell and Dudley first appears in the May 1984 timetable. here it is much more like Birmingham International than Milton Keynes Central, with nearly all Euston-Wolverhampton trains calling there.

I'm wondering if the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive was influential in Birmingham International and Sandwell and Dudley doing much better than Milton Keynes Central?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might also be because MK was tiny in 1982. Well more than half of it is mid to late 1980s, and a significant chunk even later than that.

 

[Rescars]

I know the initial question was about 1970s, but from electrification (1967) the Birmingham services were mainly, if not wholly, Mk 1. 100mph stock on B4 or Commonwealth bogies, but still vacuum braked. Class 81 or 85 still extensively used, which gave a better ride than an 86 at high speed. These services then continued, alternately, semi-fast to Liverpool or Manchester

The service was initially hourly, but 30-minute intervals started to creep in with each timetable at peak hours. The big change was the May 1974 timetable, Birmingham half hourly all day. Liverpool did similar at that time, moving on from its initial 2-hourly service, which had had a few peak supplements, to an hourly service.

The timetable above shows 67 minutes Euston to Coventry, but in the service's early years after 1967, no speed recorders (apart from Cecil J Allen) or similar, there were apparently regular early arrivals at Coventry in under the hour, sometimes by several minutes, the loco having been run at well over 100mph

By the late 1970s, the regular sets were air conditioned Mk 2s, but with Mk 1 buffet cars and a Mk1 BG at the Euston end. Most of the buffets were RBRs or RBKs, but the 07.29 up from Wolverhampton (known unofficially as "The Exec") was formed with a RKB to cope with the additional demand for breakfast

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'm wondering if the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive was influential in Birmingham International and Sandwell and Dudley doing much better than Milton Keynes Central?

I’m not sure about Sandwell and Dudley, but Birmingham International was a no brainer because of the growth of the NEC (which by 1980 also had an arena building for sports and entertainment as well as the exhibition halls) and the growth in traffic at Birmingham Airport

 

[Magdalia]

Birmingham International also abstracted traffic from New Street.

One of my earliest work memories is a visit to a traditional West Midlands metal bashing factory. I went by train and got my taxi from New Street. When I got off the train I was surprised that I couldn't find anyone else also going on the visit. When I arrived at the factory everyone else was already there, having got their taxis from Birmingham International.

For those who know it, the factory was quite like Pringles in the book "Nice Work" by David Lodge, adapted for TV starring Haydn Gwynne and Warren Clarke. The book and the TV adaptation both give an entertaining picture of what the West Midlands was like back then.

 

[hexagon789]

I assume these would have been 86 and mk2 hauled from electrification onwards?

Until the introduction of the Mk2C, the LMR had no air-braked LHCS. It therefore ran trains composed of mixed Mk1/Mk2Z stock. Though some routes appeared to be all Mk1 formations normally, Preston/Carlisle/Glasgow trains for instance until it received brand-new sets of Mk2C stock.

I know the initial question was about 1970s, but from electrification (1967) the Birmingham services were mainly, if not wholly, Mk 1. 100mph stock on B4 or Commonwealth bogies, but still vacuum braked.

As with the ER, there weren't enough Commonwealth or B4 bogies coaches, so sets did get Mk1 bogies vehicles in them and were still permitted 100mph. I believe such Mk1s were stencilled 'A' on the ends to reflect that they had the most frequent level of maintenance on them.

By the late 1970s, the regular sets were air conditioned Mk 2s, but with Mk 1 buffet cars and a Mk1 BG at the Euston end. Most of the buffets were RBRs or RBKs, but the 07.29 up from Wolverhampton (known unofficially as "The Exec") was formed with a RKB to cope with the additional demand for breakfast

From the 1974 carriage workings, the sets were planned as:

Euston-Glasgow: 9 Mk2E/F sets

Euston-Inverness: 2 Mk2C sets

Bristol/Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh: 4 Mk2C sets

Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh: 3 Mk2C sets

Euston-Northwest: 9 Mk2C sets

Euston-North Wales: 4 Mk2C & 3 Mk1 VB/DH sets

Euston-Manchester/Liverpool: 14 Mk2E/F sets, 1 Mk2C set, 2 Mk2 Pullman sets, 2 Mk2 Pullman/Mk2 VB mixed sets

Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton: 11 Mk2E/F sets

Southwest-Northwest: 16 Mk1 VB/DH sets