• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,218
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Yes the roads stayed open (but didn’t national express and mega bus suspend services?!). The difference with the roads is that there’s no “duty or care” - if people are stupid enough to drive (including several on the motorway towing caravans) during storm force winds, as I saw today, that’s between them and their insurance company.

While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,118
Location
East Anglia
A bit annoying that GWR have announced no trains are running at all before 10am, so delayed a planned journey only to discover that actually every train from Swansea to London so far has actually run as planned, despite showing as cancelled on the GWR app and website…
And with only a negligible delay too. Wasn’t expecting that today so well done all out West.
 

driverd

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2021
Messages
552
Location
UK
If trains had continued to run, even if at a reduced level and at lower speed, there would have been far greater disruption: Sooner or later, trains would have struck trees or debris, and electric trains would have become stranded with the overhead wires (OLE) down. Then staff would have to be sent to attend to those incidents and, in still horrendous conditions, either make the trains fit to move, or more likely evacuate passengers onto the ballast and somehow get them, safely, to somewhere onward transport can, somehow, be arranged.

I can absolutely appreciate the particular complexities that OHLE electric traction introduces. I think, however, a route by route approach is more appropriate, as the complexity of resolving this type of disruption depends heavily upon this.

For example, a unit stranded on the ECML, half way between Grantham and Peterborough, creates far bigger headache than a 323 stuck between Heald Green and Gatley. In my kneck of the woods, it's perhaps an interesting quirk that throughout all this disruption (of all 3 storms that have hit in the last 3/4 months), we've lost electric routes (OHLE), yet not had to evacuate other than onto another unit on one occasion. We certainly haven't had a unit tangled in the wires, in all other cases units have been able to coast to safety. Yes, this left trains at random locations, but actually, the problem area was isolated and the remainder of the network kept running, with a handful of units requiring rescue at a later stage.

Secondly, the one benefit of OHLE in these types of circumstance is tripping. It's very rare indeed for a tree to come down on the OHLE and not cause a loss of power. The subsequent loss of line light tells drivers to coast to a suitable location, but also alerts the ECO, and in turn, signaller, to the potential issue - in part being responsible for the relatively rare occurance, even within a stormy day, of OHLE units actually hitting fallen trees, especially when blanket ESRs are taken into consideration. Of course, when a tree falls infront of a unit, that's a different and unavoidable matter.

Finally, I'd like to highlight an easy and simple mitigation to these potential issues - diesel unit substitution. Again, this is highly dependent upon TOC and fleet availability, but a simple and sensible precaution is to run bi-modes on diesel, and thin out timetables (which does, to my mind, make perfect sense) and sub now surpluss DMUs for EMUs. Certainly within the realms of possibility for most UK TOCs, perhaps with the exception of TL and some of Scotrails routes.

Then, removing an electric train which has struck say a tree and got its pantograph entangled with the OLE is a complex operation, requiring staff to go on top of the train to secure the pantograph down and make the OLE fit to run trains under. Something has to be sourced to haul the stricken train away, most likely a diesel loco which will require a Driver with route knowledge, firstly to go to the depot where an emergency coupling can be fitted, and then to get to the train, which may well be on a passenger-only route with therefore very few loco Drivers passed for the line, so needing another Driver to route-conduct them. And, an issue which affected such operations towards the end of my career was the operator of the assisting loco requiring their Driver to have 'traction handling experience', ie knowing how to haul a dead EMU !

I have no doubt that this is a challenge and I suppose highly route dependent. For instance, a class 801 stranded north of Grantham creates a much bigger headache than a 333 stranded at Menston. In the later case, usual procedure is to leave the unit in situ until OHLE is restored - because its a self contained route, there's really no detriment to this.

As I mentioned above, a route by route approach really is essential, and with expected bad weather, it would seem sensible to simply not run pure EMUs where ever possible.

Eventually this will all have been arranged, taking up a lot of resources, and Control time, and the stranded train will be removed. However, other incidents occurred during the severe weather but lines could not be examined because they were blocked by stranded trains, and the resources, locos, Drivers, OLE/PW staff etc required to carry out line exams, debris clearance and repairs had to be utilised to rescue those trains.

I can't disagree there. Disruptive weather will, undoubtedly, be resource intensive.

I remain in no doubt that Scotrail's decision did drastically reduce the overall level of disruption, the one thing I think could have been done differently was to advertise last train departure times, on key routes at least, eg 'Our services will shut down by 1600 today, the last train from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen St will be the 1445, from Glasgow Central to Ayr the 1504', etc.

I would agree - it reduced the disruption to zero, because there was no service - or, from an alternative point of view, the disruption was 100%, because every single service was cancelled.

If a sensibly reduced timetable were introduced, with a blanket ESR and DMU operation where possible - perhaps taking a AWC approach and splitting longer runs into shorter segments, do you think total cancellations would still have been greater (taking into account potential units out of place, crew etc the following day)?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,102
Location
Yorkshire
Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)

My train from York to London is very busy but on time and no sign of any disruption at the moment.
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.

How do key workers get to work in that situation? Traincrew, signallers, control staff (that’s just railway!)

On another note SWR have returned to CSL2 code black do not travel.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,351
Location
Fenny Stratford
Problems around MKC this morning caused by a failed 325 parcel unit. It was stopped in the old platform at castlethorpe with a dbc 66 buffering up.

That coupled with the storm fall out ia making for lots of service issues on wcml south
 

Cdd89

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
1,453
How do key workers get to work in that situation? Traincrew, signallers, control staff (that’s just railway!)
There could be specialist insurance that does cover such driving, at a premium.

That said, I’m not certain the risk is much higher than a car parked on the street in a red weather alert area, where it could also be hit by trees/debris. The personal injury element I suppose.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,118
Location
East Anglia
Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)
Possibly later this afternoon to Kings Cross but doesn't look like the Liverpool St route will open today.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,185
Location
UK
While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.
The fact that they don't restrict cover should be a bit of a clue as to the additional level of risk represented by driving (i.e. very low).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,218
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)

My train from York to London is very busy but on time and no sign of any disruption at the moment.

905 to Bedford thence Thameslink to London? Slow but it would get there.
 

stew

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2007
Messages
143
National Rail was indicating that Preston was closed until at least 1030 for inspections. Now updated to 1600

“Preston station will remain closed, as the roof undergoes a safety inspection. Trains will not call at the station. Passengers are advised DO NOT TRAVEL to or from Preston until after 16:00.”

The Preston to Blackpool South branch is running a shuttle turning at Kirkham & Wesham. Some services have run as far as St Anne’s to try to get back to some sort of schedule
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,662
Location
Liverpool
While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.
But what happens if someone stays at home but has no alternative to park near trees? There are roads near me which are tree lined. Are you going to suggest people parking near trees would get no insurance cover in red zones? As always happens in these storms a certain number of road vehicles always get written off by a falling tree.
 

arb

Member
Joined
31 Oct 2010
Messages
413
Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)

My train from York to London is very busy but on time and no sign of any disruption at the moment.

There have been occasional stopping services from Letchworth to King's Cross at seemingly random intervals if they can find a way of getting there.

Or CrossCountry have managed to run a couple of trains from Cambridge to Peterborough this morning ... and then take LNER from there? Slow, and I imagine that would need two separate tickets and therefore be much more expensive than normal.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,102
Location
Yorkshire
But what happens if someone stays at home but has no alternative to park near trees? There are roads near me which are tree lined. Are you going to suggest people parking near trees would get no insurance cover in red zones? As always happens in these storms a certain number of road vehicles always get written off by a falling tree.
good points; any such proposal belongs in a new thread

Let's stick to the topic title in this thread please!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,218
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But what happens if someone stays at home but has no alternative to park near trees? There are roads near me which are tree lined. Are you going to suggest people parking near trees would get no insurance cover in red zones? As always happens in these storms a certain number of road vehicles always get written off by a falling tree.

No, clearly not, I was explicitly referring to driving, where the risk is a bit higher (a lot higher if you drive into a red warning zone from an area not a red warning zone).
 

liamf656

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2020
Messages
584
Location
Derby
MML is very busy today. Most trains are running okay however all Sheffield and Nottingham journeys are full and standing, with some short/overcomes due to misplaced stock. Corbys seem okay though so those wanting Kettering might want to sacrifice journey time for a chance to be seated
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,520
While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.

The majority of such claims are more likely to be when a tree has struck a stationary car that was parked nearby, usually outside somebody's house. So such a limitation on insurance would be highly counter-productive.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
10,053
Location
here to eternity
National Rail was indicating that Preston was closed until at least 1030 for inspections. Now updated to 1600

“Preston station will remain closed, as the roof undergoes a safety inspection. Trains will not call at the station. Passengers are advised DO NOT TRAVEL to or from Preston until after 16:00.”

The roof at Preston station has been causing problems for years - NR really need to get it sorted.
 

alastair

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2010
Messages
445
Location
Dartmouth
A bit annoying that GWR have announced no trains are running at all before 10am, so delayed a planned journey only to discover that actually every train from Swansea to London so far has actually run as planned, despite showing as cancelled on the GWR app and website…
Completely agree. Info on GWR services just now is really dire - to look at their website at 11am and see this :

No trains will operate on the GWR net until at least 10:00 - with the majority of services not returning until the afternoon.

is really useless, and the "Journey Check" facility is not working at all, just quoting "Problems" without saying whether a service is running or not.

A family member had to get to Bristol this morning and decided to book on Megabus. A glance at RTT shows the 1002 left Paddington only 5 late and the 1048 to Bristol Parkway on time!
I just can't understand how info can be so poor/non-existent. Can anyone involved with GW on here comment? It just shows the railway in such a poor light.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,218
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The roof at Preston station has been causing problems for years - NR really need to get it sorted.

Agreed, this self same thing happens every time someone sneezes on it.

To be honest I think it needs a full redevelopment a la Rugby. It is highly impractical in modern terms, having a layout that is not conducive to installing a gateline, having its main entrance on the side nobody uses unless arriving by taxi (the busiest access by far is the narrow Fishergate entrance and has been for years), having incredibly poor facilities and obviously having the roof fall down every time someone sneezes.

Would be a shame to lose the overall roof, but having waited there on many occasions it doesn't make it any less freezing cold and windswept!

Why would you go as far as Bedford rather than catch a bus to an ECML station?

That is just one I know exists and is likely to be running (Thameslink definitely is). There might be other better options, feel free to suggest one.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,520
No, clearly not, I was explicitly referring to driving, where the risk is a bit higher (a lot higher if you drive into a red warning zone from an area not a red warning zone).

So basically you want a "lockdown" when there is a red weather warning?

I trust you don't consider yourself a "liberal" because that's a highly autgoritarian "nanny knows best" attitude.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,118
Location
East Anglia
Agreed, this self same thing happens every time someone sneezes on it.

To be honest I think it needs a full redevelopment a la Rugby. It is highly impractical in modern terms, having a layout that is not conducive to installing a gateline, having its main entrance on the side nobody uses unless arriving by taxi (the busiest access by far is the narrow Fishergate entrance and has been for years), having incredibly poor facilities and obviously having the roof fall down every time someone sneezes.



That is just one I know exists and is likely to be running (Thameslink definitely is). There might be other better options, feel free to suggest one.
Thameslink are operating to the likes of Huntingdon & other ECML stations with decent bus connections to/from Cambridge.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,218
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
So basically you want a "lockdown" when there is a red weather warning?

Yes, that is my suggestion. Not a ban on leaving home, but rather forced closure of non essential businesses in order to protect their employees from being pressured or forced to make unsafe journeys.

I trust you don't consider yourself a "liberal" because that's a highly autgoritarian "nanny knows best" attitude.

Plenty of people are showing they don't know better, and, and this is important, because they have power over others (e.g. are bosses) they prevent others from using sensible judgement.

That is primarily why workplace health and safety exists, not to protect individuals from their own stupidity which is a fortunate side effect.
 

Sleepy

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2009
Messages
1,545
Location
East Anglia
Apart from both Severn Bridges being closed, lorries blown onto their sides blocking motorways, buses running into falling trees.... Oh, and 3 people killed by trees striking their vehicles.



If trains had continued to run, even if at a reduced level and at lower speed, there would have been far greater disruption: Sooner or later, trains would have struck trees or debris, and electric trains would have become stranded with the overhead wires (OLE) down. Then staff would have to be sent to attend to those incidents and, in still horrendous conditions, either make the trains fit to move, or more likely evacuate passengers onto the ballast and somehow get them, safely, to somewhere onward transport can, somehow, be arranged.

Then, removing an electric train which has struck say a tree and got its pantograph entangled with the OLE is a complex operation, requiring staff to go on top of the train to secure the pantograph down and make the OLE fit to run trains under. Something has to be sourced to haul the stricken train away, most likely a diesel loco which will require a Driver with route knowledge, firstly to go to the depot where an emergency coupling can be fitted, and then to get to the train, which may well be on a passenger-only route with therefore very few loco Drivers passed for the line, so needing another Driver to route-conduct them. And, an issue which affected such operations towards the end of my career was the operator of the assisting loco requiring their Driver to have 'traction handling experience', ie knowing how to haul a dead EMU !

Eventually this will all have been arranged, taking up a lot of resources, and Control time, and the stranded train will be removed. However, other incidents occurred during the severe weather but lines could not be examined because they were blocked by stranded trains, and the resources, locos, Drivers, OLE/PW staff etc required to carry out line exams, debris clearance and repairs had to be utilised to rescue those trains.

I remain in no doubt that Scotrail's decision did drastically reduce the overall level of disruption, the one thing I think could have been done differently was to advertise last train departure times, on key routes at least, eg 'Our services will shut down by 1600 today, the last train from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen St will be the 1445, from Glasgow Central to Ayr the 1504', etc.
Yes in GA land at Burnham-on-Crouch and Thorpe-le-Soken stranded trains tangled with OHL are still waiting removal.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,274
Thankyou for allowing me to scratch off yet another part of my weekly RailUK Forums bingo card. All I need now is someone going on about how things were "better back then" (ie, they were young at the time).

I guess steam trains had some kind of magical ability to remove fallen trees from the track?
I meant they could get through floods unless the water was deep enough to put the fire out. The fire risk from steam meant that lineside vegetation was not allowed to get out of control.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,520
Why would you go as far as Bedford rather than catch a bus to an ECML station?

Quite. Assuming it's running the busway to Huntingdon or 905 to Sandy.

Yes, that is my suggestion. Not a ban on leaving home, but rather forced closure of non essential businesses in order to protect their employees from being pressured or forced to make unsafe journeys.



Plenty of people are showing they don't know better, and, and this is important, because they have power over others (e.g. are bosses) they prevent others from using sensible judgement.

That is primarily why workplace health and safety exists, not to protect individuals from their own stupidity which is a fortunate side effect.

OT - but I find such an attitude scary in a "liberal" democracy. Devolve responsibility to some authority which claims to know better than an individual. Very 1984.

And as anyone who's done any H&S training knows, the responsibility for H&S in a workplace is everybody's responsibility - the legislation is structured that way, so it isn't just the responsibility of "the boss". I'd hate to have somebody as dogmatic and inflexible as you working in my team.


I meant they could get through floods unless the water was deep enough to put the fire out. The fire risk from steam meant that lineside vegetation was not allowed to get out of control.

But at a risk - as was seen in East Anglia a week or so back, the risk with water is it washes out the foundations leaving the track unstable. So whilst a steam or diesel train "could" run through standing water, whether it was wise to do so is a different question..
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top