Signalling a train into the wrong platform where there's no room - is this classed as an operational incident?

[Islineclear3_1]

So yesterday I was at a station where a service train was inadvertently signalled into a platform that was occupied by a train. The driver took the train into the platform and realised that there wasn't enough room. All the passengers were told to alight from the first and second carriage. The third and fourth carriage of the train was off the platform and the starting signal is located at the end of the platform

I won't say the location as I don't want to incriminate anyone. The passengers were told there would be a slight delay to services due to a signalling error and all was back to normal within 15-20 minutes

 

[Javelin_55]

I suspect it would. The signaller would certainly have to give a full account of themselves and explain why what happened happened, may even be med screened but not sure.

I can think of a couple of places this happens on occasion, usually due to trains being overlength and signaller/SSM not aware.

 

[DelW]

It happened to me once at Waterloo, early on a Saturday morning. Fortunately there were only a dozen or so passengers on board and we left via the driver's cab door.
It was an eight coach train so a lot of it must have been stuck across the throat. I was heading for a railtour so I couldn't stop to watch it being resolved.

 

[PupCuff]

It's not uncommon. Like all such incidents it'll get looked into; common causes would be the train already in the platform being longformed (eg double set vice single) and the signaller not being informed (or indeed the train entering the platform being longformed), the train already in the platform stopping in the wrong place, platform staff being asked to check available platform space and misjudging it, potentially even the platform actually being shorter than it's supposed to be.

The big risk is that it gets missed and the doors get released off the platform but on the whole that's really very rare as crews tend to be pretty switched on when they're permissively working and think they're not going to fit.

 

[apinnard]

This has nearly happened a couple of times at St Pancras (midland platforms) since the 360’s were introduced there.

 

[Whistler40145]

What happens If the units off the end of the platform aren't near the track circuits?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Depending upon the location, blame could also be attributed to the driver for accepting a route into an occupied platform if their train is longer than can be accepted by a calling on signal.
Sometimes a driver will call the signaller to confirm the length of a train already in a platform if their train is longer than the minimum length that a calling on signal can be given for

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In this instance, the driver could probably not have known that the platform he was signalled into was already double-occupied by two trains which itself was perhaps a little unusual for a Saturday. The approach to the station throat is on a curve with buildings obscuring the view where the approach signal is located

 

[Whistler40145]

In this instance, the driver could probably not have known that the platform he was signalled into was already double-occupied by two trains which itself was perhaps a little unusual for a Saturday. The approach to the station throat is on a curve with buildings obscuring the view where the approach signal is located

Wouldn't the Signaller have already known that the platform was occupied?

 

[alxndr]

What happens If the units off the end of the platform aren't near the track circuits?

Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? Do you mean if they're occupying another track circuit in addition to the platform ones?

Wouldn't the Signaller have already known that the platform was occupied?

They should know that something is in the platform, but they might not be aware/realise how long that something is.

 

[ComUtoR]

Wouldn't the Signaller have already known that the platform was occupied?

Most likely and if the Driver was signalled as permissive working then almost certainly. What can, and looks like did happen; is that the Signaller didnt know the train lenghts in question. Maybe they didnt know what was in the platform or maybe they didn't know what the train length the Driver had.

 

[High Dyke]

Wouldn't the Signaller have already known that the platform was occupied?

Yes, they should be aware. However, they may not know how many carriages/vehicles are already occupying the platform. It could be, as mentioned already, that station staff have not drawn the first train up to the correct stopping position and have now created the problem.

 

[Whistler40145]

Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? Do you mean if they're occupying another track circuit in addition to the platform ones?


They should know that something is in the platform, but they might not be aware/realise how long that something is.

Sorry, I meant if the units hanging off the platform were nowhere near the track circuits to operate the platform signals, what happens then?

 

[Javelin_55]

Sorry, I meant if the units hanging off the platform were nowhere near the track circuits to operate the platform signals, what happens then?

If the units are beyond the platform signal and the associated overlap, that signal should be at danger and the platform staff will have additional dispatch duties to send it off.

In this case, the next track circuit out of the station should show as occupied and may interfere with movements in and out of the other platforms, in which case the priority will probably be to move this unit first, working closely with the signaller.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes I've seen it happen before - literally watched it on CCF/TMIS to scramble to call the signaller ASAP! It's the sort of thing that yes would be described on the CIS as an "operational incident".

Sometimes you can have permissive working which allows two (or more) trains to occupy one platform. The issues can occur when the wrong length of train is put into the platform (and is incorrectly known), an issue with track circuits or signaller (and driver) inattention. Many drivers will question the route if they can see the platform ahead - which often happens at terminals - so they don't go forward but this isn't always possible until too late.

 

[dk1]

Happened to me a few weeks ago. Always your last bit too when these things happen Grrrr!! We detained the forty or so passengers through my cab but ended up having to pull the emergency release to remove two bikes from the leading passenger doors. Train was then shunted out & later back into another platform.

I put a report in at the end of the shift & never heard another thing about it. Hope the signaller was ok as he was very apologetic.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wouldn't the Signaller have already known that the platform was occupied?

Yes I would have expected that as services were being worked in and out of the platform with another train stabled at the stops.

But the driver probably wouldn't have known the platform was occupied by 2 trains, the calling-on signal wouldn't know how many trains were in the platform

I wonder if it was a new signaller who didn't realise the platform/train lengths.

If the units are beyond the platform signal and the associated overlap, that signal should be at danger and the platform staff will have additional dispatch duties to send it off.

In this case, the next track circuit out of the station should show as occupied and may interfere with movements in and out of the other platforms, in which case the priority will probably be to move this unit first, working closely with the signaller.

This is exactly what happened. Once the pax were safely off the train, it was duly shunted out of the way so that it didn't block the station throat longer than necessary

 

[ComUtoR]

I wonder if it was a new signaller who didn't realise the platform/train lengths.

Not really a fair comment. It's a common mistake to make. Anyone of any experience level can make it and sometimes it isn't even the Driver or Signallers fault.

 

[2192]

It happenned to me once about 40 years ago. Our returning church private excursion DMU (York to Manchester then Whitefield) was signalled into a bay at Huddersfield. There was a stopping service just behind us that was due to turn round at Huddersfield, and I guess the signalman hadn't noticed there was a private charter expected, and assumed it was the stopper, and our driver hadn't noticed he was being signalled into the bay until he had gone by the signal. After a bit of delay we backed out and then carried on. I forget whether the stopper terminated in another platform or had to wait while we reversed and continued.

 

[High Dyke]

If the units are beyond the platform signal and the associated overlap, that signal should be at danger and the platform staff will have additional dispatch duties to send it off.

In this case, the next track circuit out of the station should show as occupied and may interfere with movements in and out of the other platforms, in which case the priority will probably be to move this unit first, working closely with the signaller.

Happened a few months back at Cleethorpes. The wife was the guard on the train put into a platform on top of two 3-car units. Their service was now starting from beyond the platform signal. Signaller at York didn't realise their train wouldn't fit into the occupied platform.

 

[Signal_Box]

The problem is what’s shown on Trust as the formation of a train isn’t always correct, so the signaller going on their trust formation thinks there’s enough room when in fact there isnt.

In this case the signaller nor driver will face any real bother.

I’d suggest the driver in your circumstance wouldn’t be in to much bother either, certainly no SOL points on their record. The only circumstance I can see a driver being spoken to in this situation is if their train was of length ie a 8 or 12 car formation or length over what is usual.

This is where competent and empowered station staff come in to verbally advise rhe signaller sometimes hundreds of miles away with no visual view of the platform.

 

[Horizon22]

I put a report in at the end of the shift & never heard another thing about it. Hope the signaller was ok as he was very apologetic.

They often are, normally with some choice expletives on the phone! As you say often requires a messy shunt back which blocks the throat of terminal stations for a while.

I've also had signallers call me and triple check the stock formation before attempting such a move, which is probably the best option especially if there's been disruption and sets have been swapped throughout the day. Never assume in railway operations!

 

[dk1]

They often are, normally with some choice expletives on the phone! As you say often requires a messy shunt back which blocks the throat of terminal stations for a while.

I've also had signallers call me and triple check the stock formation before attempting such a move, which is probably the best option especially if there's been disruption and sets have been swapped throughout the day. Never assume in railway operations!

I think the problem stemmed from a football extra that was delayed by a technical fault. A unit swap took place then another was allowed on top of the failure which was overlooked when I too was sent in under permissive working.

 

[DA1]

Sometimes it’s just a miscommunication as well between TOC and NWR. Once heard that a signaller had called up one of our drivers to double check his train length. Driver had a 12 car but the signaller only had a 4 car down on their end. Luckily nothing unfortunate occurred.

 

[SignallerJohn]

Not always the signallers fault.

Driver drawn down too far or not enough?
Train running more coaches than usual and not being informed?
Were other platforms full?
Were you aware if they had any issues with track circuit failures on other platforms?
Were you privy to the GSMR conversation between the driver and signaller?

 

[Annetts key]

What happens If the units off the end of the platform aren't near the track circuits?

Sorry, I meant if the units hanging off the platform were nowhere near the track circuits to operate the platform signals, what happens then?

If the units are beyond the platform signal and the associated overlap, that signal should be at danger and the platform staff will have additional dispatch duties to send it off.

In this case, the next track circuit out of the station should show as occupied and may interfere with movements in and out of the other platforms, in which case the priority will probably be to move this unit first, working closely with the signaller.

I don’t know about current practice, but in the past, to shunt (“reverse”) the train from a situation like this, it would be treated as an unsignalled move, and can only take place under the authority of the signaller. Similar to a train that has been wrong routed, and which has to “reverse” back over the junction.

Unless the interlocking has been designed with a time out or release for the route locking, and the signal concerned has a shunt route that does not require the track circuits to be clear.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Not always the signallers fault.

Driver drawn down too far or not enough?
Train running more coaches than usual and not being informed?
Were other platforms full?
Were you aware if they had any issues with track circuit failures on other platforms?
Were you privy to the GSMR conversation between the driver and signaller?

If this is directed at me...?

Don't understand the first question
Train was running as one single unit only
There were two trains occupying the platform; one stabled at the stops with another (service) train pulled up close to it
The other platforms weren't full - they were empty
Trains had been running normally to and from all other platforms before - and after said incident, so unless track circuit failure happened in a short period of time and corrected itself
And no, I wasn't privy to the GSMR conversation but I would like to assume that there was no conversation between signaller and driver to put a train into a occupied platform knowing full well that it wouldn't fit when other platforms were empty

 

[Horizon22]

I do believe at most stations with permissive working drivers have to be "called on" to the platform in advance. I think this happens at most terminals and is my understanding but maybe drivers could advise what happens in practice?

 

[Signal_Box]

Terminals you always get a single yellow (next stop signal is the blocks), if the platform is empty you’ll be signalled normally G YY Y then stop blocks.

If the platform is occupied you’ll get a red on the last signal, at a certain track section or after a set time has a lapsed the permissive double white dots will clear. The driver is to proceed at a speed they can stop short into the platform.

If the signal is on a gantry you may also get a platform number along with the dots.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think the signal has a theatre display indicating the platform, but I'm not certain without checking an up to date signalling diagram