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Russia invades Ukraine

Scotrail314209

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A pipeline was targeted in Kharkhiv too, and Kharkiv itself seemed to be getting heavily bombarded. I'm not looking forward to the news I will wake up to tomorrow morning.

By the way, has anybody else been finding it hard to sleep the last three nights because of this?
I have too. In a sense, it really does hit slightly close to home as it is in Europe, only a few hours flight away.

It's scary, but I'm trying to find optimism here. We should be slightly optimistic that the Ukrainians are putting up a hard fight, which makes a Russian victory even more unlikely.
 
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AlterEgo

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I have seen some quite interesting analysis regarding Putin taking advantage of Brexit almost completely distracting European nations, with Europe seeing that as the biggest threat to itself rather than what was going on in eastern Ukraine.
Anglocentric hogwash. Not everything is about Brexit. This is about an age-old empire which feels it’s been mooned by a country it believes exists as a historical mistake.

Another example of Schrodinger’s Brexit, where it is simultaneously absolutely piffling and Europe couldn’t care less - bye Britain! - and also the most important issue ever ever ever which risks starting war in Europe.
I have too. In a sense, it really does hit slightly close to home as it is in Europe, only a few hours flight away.

It's scary, but I'm trying to find optimism here. We should be slightly optimistic that the Ukrainians are putting up a hard fight, which makes a Russian victory even more unlikely.
The Russians will “win”. The objective is to make it a pyrrhic one. Kill as many of them as possible. There are already thousands of them apparently dead. But they are a very large force, even if they are blundering and demotivated.

The Ukrainians who are defending their homeland against the aggressor empire are heroes. They will eventually retreat into guerrilla warfare against the occupying forces and this is where European and allied help will really make a difference. A steady supply of arms and morale.
 

Annetts key

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Anti-aircraft systems are of limited use against short-range ballistic missiles.
Depends on the type. But the type that is being talked about are of limited effectiveness against missiles.
Personally I do not think Putin can afford to lose, and I don't think he will halt any offensive unless there is a revolt within Russia. If not I believe he will just increase the violence factor and commit more and more troops, until he breaks Kyiv down through terror or starvation. A dour view though- I could certainly use some optimism.
Putin can’t afford to lose, but at the same time, he can’t afford his forces to suffer heavy losses. Either in people or in equipment. Fighting a large war and trying to hold ground in a hostile environment is expensive, both in terms of people, equipment, logistics and money.

And longer term, trying to hold a large country in a guerrilla war means the costs will continue to increase.

Too many deaths and injuries and he may face opposition from his own military and/or powerful people at home.

Russia may have increased military spending under Putin, but there are limits on how much money has been available. And now with sanctions, the amount of money for the military could well be reduced. That may make it far more difficult to replace any lost equipment.

And the last thing Putin wants is to look or become weak.
 

Busaholic

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By the way, has anybody else been finding it hard to sleep the last three nights because of this?
Certainly, I do not normally post at this time or have my computer on, but these appalling events combined with the recent loss of my wife of 52 years are causing me sleepless nights. This is by far the worst time in the world of my lifetime, barring perhaps the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, but that was resolved relatively quickly. Khrushchev wasn't a monstrous lunatic, though.
 

adc82140

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We have been here before. The Balkan war of the 1990s was just as fierce, and there were some horrendous atrocities carried out. And this was in a country just the other side of Italy, a place that had hosted the Olympics not 10 years before, a place tha t had been a hiday destination.

The difference this time is the availability of news (and propaganda) 24/7.
 

squizzler

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Looks like without SWIFT the Russians will have to do all their international trade with bitcoin now. Good luck with that!

I just had a thought on our duty to resettle people fleeing the conflict. Never mind the Ukrainians, Britain and the EU real want to offer citizenship to Russian troops that surrender in Ukraine. I reackon they will have quite a few takers.
 

Bantamzen

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There are many rumours that the hacking group Anonymous are bringing down multiple Russian / Belarussian government sites, as well as Russain state TV and even a Belarussian military manufacturer, releasing over 200GB of logistical information.
 

tommy2215

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Looks like without SWIFT the Russians will have to do all their international trade with bitcoin now. Good luck with that!
It is very good to see Germany dropped its opposition. Putin probably gambled that EU countries would be too reluctant to ban them from SWIFT due to their reliance on Russian gas.

There are many rumours that the hacking group Anonymous are bringing down multiple Russian / Belarussian government sites, as well as Russain state TV and even a Belarussian military manufacturer, releasing over 200GB of logistical information.
Its definitely not just a rumour!

Russia will probably take Ukraine in the coming days but there's no doubt Putin had significantly underestimated the response from Ukrainians, miscalculated how loyal some of his allies actually are and probably was not expecting the response from the international community to be just as huge as it has been.
 

adc82140

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It's going to be a difficult decision for Ukraine:

Either continue to put up stiff resistance, to give the Russians a high casualty level before the inevitable (sadly) fall of Kyiv, with the associated risk of death and destruction within your country

Or get it all over faster, forming a government in exile somewhere, with Russia an international pariah state. But then you have lost your country.

I have no idea which is the better option, but if option 1 is chosen, NATO should be actively training and arming Ukrainian troops and volunteers on NATO territory before they then return to Ukraine to fight. Then Russia will be facing an army of Ukrainians trained and equipped to NATO standards.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It's great to see Western countries finally coming together with reasonable sanctions on Russia and more military support for Ukraine, even though we're sadly still not committing to direct involvement.

One other thing has occurred to me that could be bad for Putin: If - as seems likely - Ukraine turns into a long guerrilla war, that guerrilla war could very easily spill into Belarus, since there's a long Belarus-Ukraine border and Belarus also appears to have a population that are largely opposed to the authoritarian Government and only kept in check by brutal suppression. If that happens, Putin could well find that his invasion of Ukraine not only ultimately fails, but also ends up destabilizing his only other friendly puppet regime in that region.
 

nw1

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I have seen some quite interesting analysis regarding Putin taking advantage of Brexit almost completely distracting European nations, with Europe seeing that as the biggest threat to itself rather than what was going on in eastern Ukraine.
I do certainly believe that Putin wanted Brexit, put it that way. Any divisions between the nations that will stand against him are welcome as far as he is concerned.
 
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Roast Veg

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Ukrzaliznytsia have apparently announced that parts of all lines between Ukraine and Russia have been blown up by the Ukrainian military to prevent Russia from sending anything in by rail.
Railways are a measure of civilization - the oldest railways often demonstrate the longest period of peace. The inverse is demonstrably true.

I wouldn't count Kyiv out just yet, despite the intense Northern assault. Russia can only sustain it for a few more days.
 

dgl

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Anonymous hackers have taken doen the Kremlin website and have hacked TV broadcasts to show Russians what's really happening in Ukraine.
Hope they contiune their attacks and only get more people joining them.
 

oldman

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There are many rumours that the hacking group Anonymous are bringing down multiple Russian / Belarussian government sites, as well as Russain state TV and even a Belarussian military manufacturer, releasing over 200GB of logistical information.
Novosti are reporting it, including one on the Presidential Council on the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights :rolleyes:
 

kristiang85

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We have been here before. The Balkan war of the 1990s was just as fierce, and there were some horrendous atrocities carried out. And this was in a country just the other side of Italy, a place that had hosted the Olympics not 10 years before, a place tha t had been a hiday destination.

The difference this time is the availability of news (and propaganda) 24/7.

Well yes, I do find it strange this war has been forgotten as it was certainly bloodier than this has been so far.

However, the main difference is that one of the actors here is a nuclear superpower headed by someone who is clearly now a maniac wanting to make a legacy for himself. I'm quite into the history of dictatorships, and it's clear Putin is going down that route.
 

Gostav

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Anonymous hackers have taken doen the Kremlin website and have hacked TV broadcasts to show Russians what's really happening in Ukraine.
Hope they contiune their attacks and only get more people joining them.
Interesting, because during the civil unrest in Kazakhstan, it was the Chinese cyber team that assisted the Kazakh government in cutting off network communications, and we'll have to wait and see if the cyber war will escalate further.
 

adc82140

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Well yes, I do find it strange this war has been forgotten as it was certainly bloodier than this has been so far.

However, the main difference is that one of the actors here is a nuclear superpower headed by someone who is clearly now a maniac wanting to make a legacy for himself. I'm quite into the history of dictatorships, and it's clear Putin is going down that route.
Russia was involved in the Balkan conflict, particularly the Kosovo element later on. There was a situation at one point where NATO troops and Russians were facing each other down at an airport.
 

adrock1976

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The Czech Republic and Sweden have joined Poland in refusing to play Russia in the World Cup.

Also, the Ukrainian President Zelensky is willing to hold talks with Russia, but not in Belarus.

Both the above are from the BBC News website.
 

Monty

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It's going to be a difficult decision for Ukraine:

Either continue to put up stiff resistance, to give the Russians a high casualty level before the inevitable (sadly) fall of Kyiv, with the associated risk of death and destruction within your country

Or get it all over faster, forming a government in exile somewhere, with Russia an international pariah state. But then you have lost your country.

I have no idea which is the better option, but if option 1 is chosen, NATO should be actively training and arming Ukrainian troops and volunteers on NATO territory before they then return to Ukraine to fight. Then Russia will be facing an army of Ukrainians trained and equipped to NATO standards.
The Ukrainians will fight to the last man, they will not surrender. That said the longer they fight the more difficult it becomes for the Russians. They have lost huge amounts of material and if some of the videos i've seen are to be believed are suffering appalling casualties. Their supply lines are stretched thin, morale is low and many of their soldiers are simply abandoning their equipment. It's not all going Russia's way at all.
 

Gloster

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The idea of having an expatriate resistance army in training elsewhere is fine, but which country is going to allow them on their territory knowing that Russia/Putin will switch all their efforts on to them? I am afraid there will be lots of words about heroes, but very little practical help other than a few bits of hardware.

If there is a guerilla war, then Putin might find find difficulty keeping the Generals on side. Many of them were probably junior officers in Afghanghistan in the 1980s and remember it with a shudder.
 

kristiang85

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Russia was involved in the Balkan conflict, particularly the Kosovo element later on. There was a situation at one point where NATO troops and Russians were facing each other down at an airport.

Yes they were, like they were in Syria, but it's when they are the main protagonist and that it has started for no discernable reason other than empire building that makes it more worrying than those.
 

dgl

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I hope it gets to the point where a significant amount of the Russian army just don't want to fight and so start "working to rule" as it were and make it look like they are actively fighting but are just doing it as incompently as possiblle. without arousing suspicion.
Would probably hurt Putin more than withdrawal as at least with withdrawal he could cliam it was done on humane grounds whereas a crap army tells everyone around the world that Russia is a pushover.
 

brad465

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Anonymous hackers have taken doen the Kremlin website and have hacked TV broadcasts to show Russians what's really happening in Ukraine.
Hope they contiune their attacks and only get more people joining them.
Talk about playing them at their own game.

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The Russians will “win”. The objective is to make it a pyrrhic one. Kill as many of them as possible. There are already thousands of them apparently dead. But they are a very large force, even if they are blundering and demotivated.

The Ukrainians who are defending their homeland against the aggressor empire are heroes. They will eventually retreat into guerrilla warfare against the occupying forces and this is where European and allied help will really make a difference. A steady supply of arms and morale.
Depends how effective Putin manages to keep Russian soldier deaths quiet. It's already been reported that the army has taken its own crematoriums to the front to stop bodies returning to Russia, and it may well be that their families get told lies about them dying heroes, along with compensation payments that aim to keep them quiet. However, truth will out, and there's only so much cover up that can be done.
 

adc82140

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Talk about playing them at their own game.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Depends how effective Putin manages to keep Russian soldier deaths quiet. It's already been reported that the army has taken its own crematoriums to the front to stop bodies returning to Russia, and it may well be that their families get told lies about them dying heroes, along with compensation payments that aim to keep them quiet. However, truth will out, and there's only so much cover up that can be done.
There are also Chechen fighters going in. This is useful for Putin, as the deaths will not fall directly on his shoulders, but those of his useful idiot in Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov.
 

Master Cutler

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Interesting how despite past Russian posturing about their high tech weapons, on the ground this is turning into just another hand to hand infantry battle.
Unfortunately once the fighting become entrenched in the streets the Russians, to gain the upper hand, will no doubt resort to their missiles flattening Ukrainian cities. This is when the conflict will cause massive collateral damage to people and infrastructure resulting in yet another refugee disaster.
 

scarby

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This is by far the worst time in the world of my lifetime, barring perhaps the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, but that was resolved relatively quickly. Khrushchev wasn't a monstrous lunatic, though.
Well, I suppose if one discounts large parts of Eastern Europe having to live under repressive regimes up to the 1990s, a wall driven through the centre of Berlin, Britain being on a nuclear war footing with bunkers and leaflets and programmes advising what to do when the bomb dropped, with Able Archer 83 almost causing nuclear war, the IRA/civil war in Northern Ireland, the PLO and numerous other groups blowing people up across Europe and blowing passenger planes out of the sky, the Vietnam War, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, various continuous conflicts around Israel and in the Middle East, dreadful wars in Africa, conflicts in South America, 9/11 and the subsequent ‘war on terror’, the war in the Balkans, and that’s just a few things off the top of my head.
 

Annetts key

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david o. houwen said:
david o. houwen
chief execative officer (ceo) at kopjes kattenoppas | convivial solipsist | tech ethicist | bâtaphysicist | qbist
3d · Edited

'Poetin: 'Ik raad mijn Nederlandse vrienden op de Zuidas aan geen tegoeden te bevriezen, tenzij men prijs stelt op een radioactieve tsunami, veroorzaakt door een thermonucleaire Poseidon torpedo van 100 megaton.' ;)

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will change the face of Europe for ever | Timothy Garton Ash | The Guardian

(...) Why do we always make the same mistake? Oh, that’s only trouble in the Balkans, we say – and then an assassination in Sarajevo sparks the first world war. Oh, Adolf Hitler’s threat to Czechoslovakia is “a quarrel in a faraway country, between people of whom we know nothing” – and then we find ourselves in the second world war. Oh, Joseph Stalin’s takeover of distant Poland after 1945 is none of our business – and soon enough we have the cold war. Now we have done it again, not waking up until it is too late to the full implications of Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea in 2014. And so, on Thursday 24 February 2022, we stand here again, clothed in nothing but the shreds of our lost illusions.
(...) There will be a time to reflect on all our past mistakes. If, starting in 2014, we had got serious about helping to build up Ukraine’s capacity to defend itself, reduced European energy dependence on Russia, purged the sewage lakes of Russian dirty money swilling around London and imposed more sanctions on the Putin regime, we might be in a better place. But we have to start from where we are.
(...) Russia is now the world’s largest rogue state. It is commanded by a president who, to judge from his hysterical rants this week, has departed the realm of rational calculation – as isolated dictators tend to do, sooner or later. To be clear: when, in his declaration of war on Thursday morning, he threatened anyone “who tries to stand in our way” with “consequences you have never encountered in your history”, he was threatening us with nuclear war.


Nuclear torpedoes are a ridiculously awesome thing...

> Russia bragged that it has a new nuclear torpedo, a city killer that could wipe out U.S. coastal cities and make their surrounding area radioactive for decades. It was originally announced during a speech by Putin where he bragged about a number of supposedly functional doomsday weapons.


This is Russia’s nuclear ‘doomsday’ torpedo the US just can’t stop...

“It’s an insane weapon in the sense that it’s probably as indiscriminate and lethal as you can make a nuclear weapon.”
From here (click on the link to see the illustrations of the torpedo)…

Link to the Guardian web page

Timothy Garton Ash said:
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will change the face of Europe for ever

Timothy Garton Ash

It will take years for the consequences of 24 February to play out, but there is still much the west can do to help Ukrainians

Why do we always make the same mistake? Oh, that’s only trouble in the Balkans, we say – and then an assassination in Sarajevo sparks the first world war. Oh, Adolf Hitler’s threat to Czechoslovakia is “a quarrel in a faraway country, between people of whom we know nothing” – and then we find ourselves in the second world war. Oh, Joseph Stalin’s takeover of distant Poland after 1945 is none of our business – and soon enough we have the cold war. Now we have done it again, not waking up until it is too late to the full implications of Vladimir Putin’s seizure of Crimea in 2014. And so, on Thursday 24 February 2022, we stand here again, clothed in nothing but the shreds of our lost illusions.

At such moments we need courage and resolution but also wisdom. That includes care in our use of words. This is not the third world war. It is, however, already something much more serious than the Soviet invasions of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968. The five wars in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s were terrible, but the larger international dangers that flowed from them were not on this scale. There were brave resistance fighters in Budapest in 1956, but in Ukraine today we have an entire independent, sovereign state with a large army and a people who declare themselves determined to resist. If they don’t resist, at scale, this will be an occupation. If they do, this could be the largest war in Europe since 1945.

Against them is arrayed the overwhelming force of one of the strongest military powers in the world, with well-trained and equipped conventional forces and some 6,000 nuclear weapons. Russia is now the world’s largest rogue state. It is commanded by a president who, to judge from his hysterical rants this week, has departed the realm of rational calculation – as isolated dictators tend to do, sooner or later. To be clear: when, in his declaration of war on Thursday morning, he threatened anyone “who tries to stand in our way” with “consequences you have never encountered in your history”, he was threatening us with nuclear war.

There will be a time to reflect on all our past mistakes. If, starting in 2014, we had got serious about helping to build up Ukraine’s capacity to defend itself, reduced European energy dependence on Russia, purged the sewage lakes of Russian dirty money swilling around London and imposed more sanctions on the Putin regime, we might be in a better place. But we have to start from where we are.

In the early fog of a war that is just beginning, I see four things Europe and the rest of the west need to do. First, we need to secure the defence of every inch of Nato territory, especially at its eastern frontiers with Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, against all possible forms of attack, including cyber and hybrid ones. For 70 years, the security of west European countries including Britain has ultimately depended on the credibility of the “one for all and all for one” promise of article 5 of the Nato treaty. Like it or not, the longtime security of London is now inextricably intertwined with that of the Estonian city of Narva; that of Berlin with Białystok in Poland; that of Rome with that of Cluj-Napoca in Romania.

Second, we have to offer all the support that we can to the Ukrainians, short of breaching the threshold that would bring the west into a direct war with Russia. Those Ukrainians who choose to stay and to resist will be fighting by military and civilian means to defend the freedom of their country, as they have every possible right in law and conscience to do, and as we would do for our own countries. Inevitably, the limited scope of our response will lead to bitter disappointment among them. Emails from Ukrainian friends speak, for example, of the west imposing a no-fly zone, denying Ukrainian airspace to Russian planes. Nato is not going to do that. Like the Czechs in 1938, like the Poles in 1945, like Hungarians in 1956, Ukrainians will say: “You, our fellow Europeans, have abandoned us.”

But there are still things we can do. We can continue to supply weapons, communications and other equipment to those who are entirely legitimately resisting armed force with armed force. As important in the medium term, we can help those who will be using the well-tried techniques of civil resistance against a Russian occupation and any attempt to impose a puppet government. We must also stand ready to assist the many Ukrainians who will flee westward.

Third, the sanctions we impose on Russia should go beyond what has already been prepared. Beside comprehensive economic measures, there should be expulsions of Russians in any way connected with the Putin regime. Putin, with his war chest of more than $600bn, and his hand on the gas tap to Europe, has prepared for this, so sanctions will take time to have their full effect.

In the end, it will have to be the Russians themselves who turn round and say: “Enough. Not in our name.” Many of them, including the Nobel prizewinner Dmitry Muratov, already express their horror at this war. Likewise, the Ukrainian journalist Nataliya Gumanyuk has written movingly of a Russian journalist crying on the telephone with her as the Russian tanks moved in. That horror will only increase when the corpses of young Russian men return in body bags – and as the full economic and reputational impact becomes apparent at home in Russia. Russians will be the first and last victims of Vladimir Putin.

That brings me to a final, vital point: we must be prepared for a long struggle. It will take years, probably decades, for all the consequences of 24 February to be played out. In the short term, the prospects for Ukraine are desperately bleak. But I think at this moment of the wonderful title of a book about the Hungarian revolution of 1956: Victory of a Defeat. Almost everyone in the west has now woken up to the fact that Ukraine is a European country being attacked and dismembered by a dictator. Kyiv today is a city full of journalists from all over the world. This experience will shape their views of Ukraine for ever. We had forgotten, in the years of our post-cold war illusions, that this is how nations write themselves on to the mental map of Europe: in blood, sweat and tears.

Timothy Garton Ash is a historian, political writer and Guardian columnist
 
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adrock1976

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Certainly, I do not normally post at this time or have my computer on, but these appalling events combined with the recent loss of my wife of 52 years are causing me sleepless nights. This is by far the worst time in the world of my lifetime, barring perhaps the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, but that was resolved relatively quickly. Khrushchev wasn't a monstrous lunatic, though.

Well, I suppose if one discounts large parts of Eastern Europe having to live under repressive regimes up to the 1990s, a wall driven through the centre of Berlin, Britain being on a nuclear war footing with bunkers and leaflets and programmes advising what to do when the bomb dropped, with Able Archer 83 almost causing nuclear war, the IRA/civil war in Northern Ireland, the PLO and numerous other groups blowing people up across Europe and blowing passenger planes out of the sky, the Vietnam War, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, various continuous conflicts around Israel and in the Middle East, dreadful wars in Africa, conflicts in South America, 9/11 and the subsequent ‘war on terror’, the war in the Balkans, and that’s just a few things off the top of my head.

Regarding the Cuban Missile crisis, what is not mentioned very often is the event that led up to it the previous year when the USA carried out the Bay of Pigs invasion. As neither the US or Cuba came out of it smelling of roses, the US still managed to paint Khrushchev as "the bad guy" in the end.

Also, there is the ongoing illegal occupation of the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem by the Israeli Government, and as well as various other areas of historic Palestine. Also, I remember the Iran - Iraq conflict that ran from 1980-88, with both Reagan and Thatcher being best buddies with Saddam Hussain, funding, training, and selling arms to him (the former US Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld went one better and sold arms to both sides).

The 9/11 that is not mentioned very often is the one that happened in Chile back in 1973, where the democratically elected president Salvadore Allende was assassinated and engineered by the CIA. General Augusto Pinochet was installed soon after. In 1998, when Pinochet had extradition orders for war crimes imposed on him, the then UK Foreign Secretary at the time Jack Straw allowed Pinochet to get of being extradited to Madrid, as Pinochet was claimed to be in ill health with cardiac problems making him unable to fly. However, Pinochet returned to Santiago, Chile, which when I first looked at an atlas when I was at primary school years ago, London to Santiago, Chile is a damned sight farther than London to Madrid, Spain is.
 
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Incredible live scenes from St. Petersburg on Sky TV News over the last 20 minutes.
They show a large protest against the war and a large police contingent systematically wading in to the crowd and removing protesters one by one, or a few at a time, over and over.
The crowd are undeterred and continue to chant their protest slogans.
Noticeable amongst the large number of press and other photographers, are numerous security camera people taking video and digital photos of the protesters, even going deep amongst them to capture as many as possible and not just those at the front.
The live video continued for at least ten or fifteen minutes, rather than some 20 second news clip.

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Military analysts were saying this morning, that only between a third and a half of the Russian forces amassed around the Ukrainian borders, have actually gone in to the country so far.
That leaves a far bigger force to follow on.

Comments from a Russian official, possibly at the UN, reported on some channels this morning, saying that the sanctions being imposed, demonstrate the "total impotence of the west".
He is reported to have said that Russia will consider withdrawing from all the previously signed nuclear treaties.

Now it's being reported that Putin has put his nuclear "defence forces" on high alert.

God help us if these madmen are going for broke.
 
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Busaholic

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Well, I suppose if one discounts large parts of Eastern Europe having to live under repressive regimes up to the 1990s, a wall driven through the centre of Berlin, Britain being on a nuclear war footing with bunkers and leaflets and programmes advising what to do when the bomb dropped, with Able Archer 83 almost causing nuclear war, the IRA/civil war in Northern Ireland, the PLO and numerous other groups blowing people up across Europe and blowing passenger planes out of the sky, the Vietnam War, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, various continuous conflicts around Israel and in the Middle East, dreadful wars in Africa, conflicts in South America, 9/11 and the subsequent ‘war on terror’, the war in the Balkans, and that’s just a few things off the top of my head.
And which of those involved the potential of the two most powerful nuclear arsenals in the world facing up to each other? :rolleyes: (Able Archer excepted.)
 

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