Southern Class 455 Withdrawal

[43102EMR]

Rather than 377s being returned from Southeastern to indirectly replace the inner suburban 455s, wouldn't it make more sense for Southern to actually take some actual inner suburban trains to use on inner suburban routes, such as the Networkers, 376s or 707s?

Yes there's extra complication for driver training and maintenance etc, but that way south London has metro stock on its routes, while Kent has mainline trains on its routes, not 465/9s...

If this was to be true, would make more sense for the 377s to go back - they were always intended to be for Southern originally and enables more fleet standardisation. As mentioned in the previous post, they often find themselves pooled with the 455s for inner suburban workings already.

 

[RichJF]

Rather than 377s being returned from Southeastern to indirectly replace the inner suburban 455s, wouldn't it make more sense for Southern to actually take some actual inner suburban trains to use on inner suburban routes, such as the Networkers, 376s or 707s?

Yes there's extra complication for driver training and maintenance etc, but that way south London has metro stock on its routes, while Kent has mainline trains on its routes, not 465/9s...

Networkers are banned from a number of old South Central routes. I believe this is due to the signal/electrical interference.

It means the normal fleets (non diesel/high speed) of each 'Southern' region becomes more standard:
SE - 375, 376, 465, 707
SC: 377, 387
SWR: 444/450, 701

 

[D365]

Networkers are banned from a number of old South Central routes. I believe this is due to the signal/electrical interference. It means the normal fleets (non diesel/high speed) of each 'Southern' region becomes more standard: SE - 375, 376, 465, 707 SC: 377, 387 SWR: 444/450, 701

Banned? Or simply not cleared?

And does your post mean the 466s and 458s won't be sticking around?

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Rather than 377s being returned from Southeastern to indirectly replace the inner suburban 455s, wouldn't it make more sense for Southern to actually take some actual inner suburban trains to use on inner suburban routes, such as the Networkers, 376s or 707s?

Well, the Networkers had horrendous signalling interference issues when first introduced (kept Mr Ford in column inches for years)! The legacy is the large number of boards with Red Crosses with 'Class 465/466' at the top of them, ie. no entry to Networkers.

So there's no way the SN routes are going to be cleared for Networkers at this stage in their lives. The 376s should be easy, if you like that kind of train and, probably, the 707s as well but someone with up-to-date info on their electro-magnetic compatability (ie. do they turn Red signals Green when they go past DC reed circuits?)

Never quite got why DfT ordered so many 378s/377s etc. etc., other than that it kept Derby going in a crucial election period (2010). There were loads bought by SN, at DfT's request (this was before the GTR franchise relet) in the expectation that some might be transferred to other routes (eg. GW) but even so presumably the plan always was that inner suburban routes should be exposed to the relative comfort of carpets, quiet and air conditioning to show up how grim the 455s were by comparison.... (!)

 

[Benno]

With respect, this isn’t entirely accurate. Southeastern’s spare 377s will be transferred to Southern. Maintained at Selhurst already along with the two Class 377/1 units used by Southeastern I’ll be a pedant here and point out that my understanding was the units have always southern units that have been subleased to Southeastern. They are to be replaced I gather (unconfirmed) by the stored 465/2 units that will be sent back ‘home’.

You are correct. The 377/5 units are leased by Southern who then sub-lease them to SouthEastern. Southern could end that sub-lease as per their agreed contracts, and it sounds like that will be the case.

 

[JonathanH]

Never quite got why DfT ordered so many 378s/377s etc. etc., other than that it kept Derby going in a crucial election period (2010).

The delay to the procurement of the 700 fleet left Thameslink routes with insufficient stock to run the required service. If I remember correctly, the 377/5 fleet was actually two orders for which there was some confusion about whether they would go to Southern or First Capital Connect. The 387s were more directly linked to the delay in 700s.

With regard to the 377/6 and 377/7 fleets, Southern does have some longer 'metro' routes but the use of 377s at all seems to be a legacy of SN using VEPs (later VOPs) on 'metro' work in the light of 46 455s and 24 456s being insufficient to cover all the relevant work and the release of 319s.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Networkers are banned from a number of old South Central routes. I believe this is due to the signal/electrical interference.

They were banned on SC because of first generation reed jointless track circuits but those have subsequently been remove for reliability issues. Also the power system has been reinforced so theoretically they could probably meet the requirements for a safety case now but ain't going to happen.

Fact is much of the metro routes ran around with fresh air pre covid as the stock was largely there to support rush hour loadings. Its clear the DofT is prepared to drop the PIXC (passenger in excess of capacity) requirements now to save on stock and that results in less stock to deploy off peak at marginal cost. De facto SN 455's to be recycled. Guess the only thing stopping it happening now is all the stock diagrams for SN need a complete rewrite to maximise utilisation.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Could some of the center cars be used to lengthen class 150s?

 

[43096]

Could some of the center cars be used to lengthen class 150s?

No. The performance hit would be too big for a start.

 

[skyhigh]

Could some of the center cars be used to lengthen class 150s?

Not without major work.

 

[XAM2175]

And does your post mean the 466s and 458s won't be sticking around?

The 458s are being reconfigured for as replacements for the aborted 442 refurbishment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The 458s are being reconfigured for as replacements for the aborted 442 refurbishment.

I gathered he was more commenting on the fact that the OP presumably forgot to include them, rather than being unaware.

 

[D365]

I gathered he was more commenting on the fact that the OP presumably forgot to include them, rather than being unaware.

yep. I wasn’t sure if the Cl458 plan had changed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

yep. I wasn’t sure if the Cl458 plan had changed.

I don’t think it has; in fact two are already now in four carriage formation either in LM or Widnes, but nine trios of a class confined to one route is certainly a forgettable fleet in my opinion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yesterday, I saw three out of five Epsom Downs diagrams were single 377s. Another diagram was a 455 as usual, although a single again (standard practice to have four carriages on a Sunday, I assume.) I didn’t see the fifth, but Epsom Downs is normally a solid 455 route.

 

[brad465]

Does anyone know how the acceleration of 455s vs 377s on 3rd rail compare? Eversholt's website report the former does 0.58m/s2, but I can't find a clear answer regarding the latter's.

 

[D365]

I don’t think it has; in fact two are already now in four carriage formation either in LM or Widnes, but nine trios of a class confined to one route is certainly a forgettable fleet in my opinion.

Your ”Class 379 Withdrawals” thread would beg to differ!

 

[Class 466]

Does anyone know how the acceleration of 455s vs 377s on 3rd rail compare? Eversholt's website report the former does 0.58m/s2, but I can't find a clear answer regarding the latter's.

377s are easily quicker off the mark.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

377s are easily quicker off the mark.

As you’d expect, really

 

[Fincra5]

Does anyone know how the acceleration of 455s vs 377s on 3rd rail compare? Eversholt's website report the former does 0.58m/s2, but I can't find a clear answer regarding the latter's.

377 puts out 1,600hp via 3 (on a 4 car) MCMs..

455 puts out 860hp via 1 Motor Coach ...

377's deffo get off the mark faster!

 

[trainmania100]

Will the 455s go into storage or immediate scrappage at the likes of Newport Simms?

 

[Tynwald]

These realy are a very old obselete train. Can't imagine the slightest bit of interest in them. Straight to Newport.

 

[A0wen]

Will the 455s go into storage or immediate scrappage at the likes of Newport Simms?

I'd expect the latter, because there simple aren't any future uses for them particularly as they're 3rd rail only and the current electrification extensions which are in flight are OHL.

 

[73128]

I’m sure someone could explain it to me but I don’t see how 46 units can be replaced with 377s. Maybe even more if the 313s go. The only was I could see it potentially being feasible is if the 379s take over on the Great Northern side therefore cascading 387s south. Otherwise I can’t see how they can have they many available

plus the 707s going to SE in the summer to let 377/5s go to Southern to indirectly replace the 313s: meanwhile some 10 car services get reduced to 7 (3+4)...

 

[JonathanH]

meanwhile some 10 car services get reduced to 7 (3+4)...

Or 8? (5+3)?

 

[73128]

Or 8? (5+3)?

perhaps, but the 5 car sets rarely seem to multiple with anything else, although i assume that they can.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

perhaps, but the 5 car sets rarely seem to multiple with anything else, although i assume that they can.

Too many 10 cars running around though that outside of the peak providing way too much capacity but can the 5 cars multi to the 377/3's?

 

[Class 466]

Too many 10 cars running around though that outside of the peak providing way too much capacity but can the 5 cars multi to the 377/3's?

All 377 subclasses are compatible. Travelled on a 9 car the other day without any issues!

The 5 cars will be redistributed to replace 8 car 455s on LBG - BKJ, CAT, ECR stoppers etc with LBG- CAT/TAT fasts becoming 8 car 377s (2x4). Don’t think any 5+3 workings are being planned.

 

[Milo T.K]

377 puts out 1,600hp via 3 (on a 4 car) MCMs..

455 puts out 860hp via 1 Motor Coach ...

377's deffo get off the mark faster!

377/6 and /7 units seem faster than the other 377s which compared to 455s have the same acceleration

 

[Southern Dvr]

Will the 455s go into storage or immediate scrappage at the likes of Newport Simms?

Straight to Booths and Simms.
They were actually put up on Eversholt’s available for lease list before Christmas. Obviously as mentioned elsewhere there is no use for them elsewhere so scrap beckons.