Scotland not keen on GBR

[Nicholas Lewis]

Reported in Sunday Telegraph that Sturgeon not keen on GBR

Nicola Sturgeon is set to shunt Westminster rail reforms into the sidings by snubbing flagship new public body Great British Railways.

Officials for Transport Scotland and Scotland’s Railway last week poured scorn on Grant Shapps’ plans for Great British Railways (GBR) at a conference in Glasgow.

Alex Hynes, managing director of Scotland’s Railway, set out his priorities during a question and answer session entitled “what structure is needed to ensure rail thrives”.

“You'll notice GBR isn't one of our top five priorities,” he said, according to attendees.

Bill Reeve, rail director at Transport Scotland, then ruled out using GBR’s livery or branding north of the border.

The remarks come as Ms Sturgeon tightens her grip on Scotland’s railways. Train services will be nationalised from April 1 following a row with the current operator Abellio over cancellations and performance levels.

GBR is the central plank of rail reforms announced last May by Boris Johnson and Mr Shapps. The body will centralise operations, bringing track and trains back under the control of one body in the biggest shake-up in more than 25 years.

The Prime Minister said at the time: “I am a great believer in rail, but for too long passengers have not had the level of service they deserve. By creating Great British Railways, and investing in the future of the network, this Government will deliver a rail system the country can be proud of.”

By establishing a new public body, government meddling in the day-to-day running of the railways was supposed to be reduced.

However, setting up GBR is now expected to take some time, with it and associated reforms unlikely to become a reality before the next election.

Meanwhile, constraints on spending by the Treasury are hampering efforts to get many reforms up and running.

A spokesman for Transport Scotland said: “The UK Government rail review states that existing devolved responsibilities will be maintained under its rail reform programme, so the ScotRail brand will continue on Scotland’s Railway.

“Our ‘ScotRail’ brand is a long standing and widely recognised brand, not just in Scotland but across the UK and internationally, providing a consistent and recognisable look across Scotland’s rail network.”

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: “A coherent, consistent and clearly branded railway network will give passengers confidence in using it.

“We look forward to conversations about how the establishment of GBR will benefit Scotland and ensure all of Great Britain is served by one network.”

Probably not surprising as they wouldn't want to be tied into anything that creates a tie should they win a referendum. The article also says any sign of GBR before next election is looking remote doesn't bode well for any real advancement of the industry now till the middle of this decade.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Scotland seem to love to consider themselves separate from Great Britain so I’m not surprised at all that they don’t want ScotRail services branded as Great British.

 

[GusB]

Reported in Sunday Telegraph that Sturgeon not keen on GBR


Probably not surprising as they wouldn't want to be tied into anything that creates a tie should they win a referendum. The article also says any sign of GBR before next election is looking remote doesn't bode well for any real advancement of the industry now till the middle of this decade.

None of the quotes in that article are directly attributable to Nicola Sturgeon!

GBR is being painted as a "flagship public body", a "central plank of rail reforms" which "will centralise operations, bringing track and trains back under the control of one body in the biggest shake-up in more than 25 years".

Sturgeon is portrayed as "tightening her grip" for doing more or less the same thing! Shock horror: devolved government has plans to deal with devolved issue.

It's a bit of a non-story, really, and nothing more than a cynical attempt by the media to dress it up as Scotland trying to scupper the UK Government's plans.

 

[Starmill]

It's a bizarre article which appears to be written primarily to have a go at Scottish Ministers. It could also have been written about Northern Ireland Railways and the facts would be little different.

Why would GBR have anything to do with ScotRail and Cal Sleeper? GBR is the Department for Transport's proposed new structure for the contractors it currently manages, RDG, and Network Rail. Railway infrastructure and passenger train services have been devolved in Scotland for many years now.

 

[swt_passenger]

If we go back and re-read the original DfT announcement, it is pretty clear that Scotrail will remain devolved, and that livery variants will exist in devolved areas. Seems a bit of an artificial story…

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's a bizarre article which appears to be written primarily to have a go at Scottish Ministers. It could also have been written about Northern Ireland Railways and the facts would be little different.

The article is certainly designed to raise eyebrows but on the flip side, Sturgeon doesn't help herself one bit in any regards.

 

[mcmad]

The battle is for control of Network Rail North of the border. Currently TS fund all operations and enhancements but want to totally separate Network Rail in Scotland from that in England and Wales including 'head office' type functions for no clear benefit. The article is just some background setting the lines.

Alex Hynes is therefore put in the awkward spot of having to keep 2 masters happy when they want opposite things. Well technically the same thing as both TS and DfT want total control but.....

 

[Starmill]

The article is certainly designed to raise eyebrows but on the flip side, Sturgeon doesn't help herself one bit in any regards.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but the article doesn't appear to be based on anything whatsoever that the First Minister has actually said.

 

[Strathclyder]

A complete non-story as already pointed out. Railway infrastructure and day-to-day passenger trains have been devolved in Scotland for quite some time now. But any chance to stick the boot into Scottish Ministers, even when it's unwarranted, some will take it and run with it with articles like these.

 

[eldomtom2]

Forgive my ignorance, but how is Network Rail in Scotland different?

 

[Falcon1200]

Railway infrastructure ............. devolved in Scotland for many years now.

Railway infrastructure ......... devolved in Scotland for quite some time now.

Network Rail Scotland is just one Route of the UK-wide organisation; With specific working arrangements in Scotland (the 'Alliance') certainly, but I would not call that devolved.

 

[Starmill]

Network Rail Scotland is just one Route of the UK-wide organisation; With specific working arrangements in Scotland (the 'Alliance') certainly, but I would not call that devolved.

The funding for it is devolved. The maintenance and renewals budgets and the enhancement decisions are controlled by ministers in Scotland via Transport Scotland. What's not devolved about that? Just because it is still a part of Network Rail that doesn't mean that government or management in England and Wales can influence what the outcomes are. There are lots of operational commonalities of course and lots of cross-border traffic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2022 ==

Forgive my ignorance, but how is Network Rail in Scotland different?

The main difference is that how much money it gets is a decision taken by Scottish Ministers, rather than the DfT Ministers.

 

[fgwrich]

If we go back and re-read the original DfT announcement, it is pretty clear that Scotrail will remain devolved, and that livery variants will exist in devolved areas. Seems a bit of an artificial story…

...An Artificial non story designed to rile people up from the Torygraph, well I never!

(hardly surprising from them if I'm honest, it must be a slow news day for them)

 

[Carlisle]

(hardly surprising from them if I'm honest, it must be a slow news day for them)

Hardly likely given current world events.

 

[Starmill]

Hardly likely given current world events.

Sadly I think that the Telegraph will always make time to have a go at the Scottish or Welsh governments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Network Rail Scotland is just one Route of the UK-wide organisation; With specific working arrangements in Scotland (the 'Alliance') certainly, but I would not call that devolved.

Surprises me they don't devolve it fully and just make GBR "Rail England". For one thing, it would get rid of most of the utter economic basket case routes from their concern.

 

[Ex-controller]

As others have said, it’s a non story. The plan was always for GBR branding and strategy to effect stop at the border, something which the UK government/DfT seem to be on board with (if not necessarily enthusiastically).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As others have said, it’s a non story. The plan was always for GBR branding and strategy to effect stop at the border, something which the UK government/DfT seem to be on board with (if not necessarily enthusiastically).

The two main lines (WCML/ECML) will continue to be largely operated by GBR services, and so will HS2 services when they start.
The structure will have to allow for that, as it does now.
Freight and open access will have to fit in too, outside direct Holyrood control.

 

[507020]

Surprises me they don't devolve it fully and just make GBR "Rail England". For one thing, it would get rid of most of the utter economic basket case routes from their concern.

But these routes are not thought of as purely economic by the Scottish or Welsh governments who do not fail to see the value of them, so would doing this make “Rail England” a purely economic affair with its least profitable lines being much more heavily used than they are across wider Great Britain, creating a new threat of closure for important lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The two main lines (WCML/ECML) will continue to be largely operated by GBR services, and so will HS2 services when they start.
The structure will have to allow for that, as it does now.
Freight and open access will have to fit in too, outside direct Holyrood control.

Would those not effectively be treated as "international trains"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2022 ==

But these routes are not thought of as purely economic by the Scottish or Welsh governments who do not fail to see the value of them, so would doing this make “Rail England” a purely economic affair with its least profitable lines being much more heavily used than they are across wider Great Britain, creating a new threat of closure for important lines?

It would mean that if the Welsh or Scottish want such lines they can get their wallets out? It is the model used in federal European countries to fund regional services - while the UK isn't technically federal (not least because there is no English Parliament) the level of devolution is fairly similar to German Bundeslaender or French regions.

 

[Taunton]

Well I think they should change to a different gauge ...

 

[507020]

Would those not effectively be treated as "international trains"?

That would be a better way of doing things under such a system. I wholly agree with the Enterprise service (Belfast - Dublin) bring simply a joint venture of the entirely separate Translink and Iarnród Éireann

It would mean that if the Welsh or Scottish want such lines they can get their wallets out? It is the model used in federal European countries to fund regional services - while the UK isn't technically federal (not least because there is no English Parliament) the level of devolution is fairly similar to German Bundeslaender or French regions.

But if England, or more importantly the North and South of England and London separately, do not have their own wallets or parliaments, there is still a risk to the railway caused by our inability to implement an inherently superior system.

Well I think they should change to a different gauge ...

The Irish gauge of 5’3”/1600mm has been scientifically assessed to be the best gauge to run trains on…

 

[hexagon789]

Sadly I think that the Telegraph will always make time to have a go at the Scottish or Welsh governments.

Such are the tribulations one must tolerate in a democracy

 

[Ex-controller]

Would those not effectively be treated as "international trains"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2022 ==

In effect not that different to how they’re seen currently. You can count on two hands the number of them that penetrate beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh daily.

Not suggesting it gives them any less track access rights or regulation priority, it’s just a nature of the largely self contained network. It enables easy devolution of the rail service in Scotland. The GBR concession operators can still operate to and from Scottish destinations whilst this is pursued.

 

[Taunton]

In effect not that different to how they’re seen currently. You can count on two hands the number of them that penetrate beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh daily.

Passenger only. I suspect the reverse is true for freight.

 

[Clansman]

ScotRail (and CS by extension) is devolved and had been before Nicola Sturgeon became FM.

The UK Government knows it would be suicidal to claw back on those powers for the sake of pushing the GBR brand across ScotRail, so they won't. And the Scottish Government have no reason to want to give up that power voluntarily.

Complete non story which only stirrs up the sentiments of folk's personal political opinions.

Next there will be an article about how anti English Nicola Sturgeon is for having a Scottish accent.

 

[68000]

An article designed to rile up the folk who would believe this stuff anyway

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I would be surprised if the Scotrail branding was going to go considering it was first conceived in the 80s by *checks notes* British Rail. Besides, Scotland's rail network is largely self-contained anyway so it makes sense for there to be separate branding.

Transport for Wales, however, is a horrible brand which I wouldn't mind at all if it was replaced by GBR.

 

[MattRat]

I would be surprised if the Scotrail branding was going to go considering it was first conceived in the 80s by *checks notes* British Rail. Besides, Scotland's rail network is largely self-contained anyway so it makes sense for there to be separate branding.

Transport for Wales, however, is a horrible brand which I wouldn't mind at all if it was replaced by GBR.

TFW is even more a can of worms. Scotland has far fewer services that cross the border for either side, and even then only to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I can see a lot of fighting between Westminster and the Welsh Government over say, Bidston to Wrexham, or Holyhead to Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TFW is even more a can of worms. Scotland has far fewer services that cross the border for either side, and even then only to Glasgow and Edinburgh. I can see a lot of fighting between Westminster and the Welsh Government over say, Bidston to Wrexham, or Holyhead to Manchester.

TFW is about more than rail - it is, rightly, heading towards being something rather more like the 1980s form of national PTE, and all the better for it, too. At least someone is looking towards regulation.