Phone battery died - not given opportunity to buy new ticket

[43096]

I agree. How about creating electronic tickets that can be accessed from any number of devices?

An E-ticket as a PDF is accessible from any number of devices. It can be saved down to a cloud service (Dropbox, OneDrive or whatever) and then accessed from multiple devices. Personally I save E-Tickets to Dropbox and access them from the app on my phone; I can also set them to be available offline very easily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An E-ticket as a PDF is accessible from any number of devices. It can be saved down to a cloud service (Dropbox, OneDrive or whatever) and then accessed from multiple devices. Personally I save E-Tickets to Dropbox and access them from the app on my phone; I can also set them to be available offline very easily.

I half think @Haywain was being a bit sarcastic as e-tickets are already accessible in that way. The problem (as shown here) is that that is only the case if you planned for it to be so. Because the number of copies in existence doesn't matter, a reprint facility for these cases based on being able to give some simple pieces of information about the missing ticket so it can be found is a no-brainer.

 

[londonbridge]

This would not be a valid defence in law

Why not? You have a valid ticket but not the means to show it. You have demonstrated a willingness to show the ticket by asking for permission to take steps to restore the means of access.

 

[island]

Why not? You have a valid ticket but not the means to show it. You have demonstrated a willingness to show the ticket by asking for permission to take steps to restore the means of access.

Because byelaw 18.2 says "a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person".

Not "a person must be willing to hand over", not "a person shall hand over his ticket within half an hour after gaining access to it", or anything else.

If the person does not hand over his ticket when asked to do so, it's an offence (unless one of the defences in byelaw 18.3, such as travel from a station with no ticketing facilities, applies).

 

[Watershed]

Why not? You have a valid ticket but not the means to show it. You have demonstrated a willingness to show the ticket by asking for permission to take steps to restore the means of access.

There is a strict liability obligation to hand over your ticket when demanded. Having a willingness to comply isn't a defence, in the same way that "I didn't want to speed, officer, but the road was downhill and I didn't start braking soon enough" isn't a defence.

Now, of course you could try and have the proceedings stayed by arguing that they're an abuse of process. But a stay would be very unlikely to be granted where the situation has arisen out of a matter within the passenger's control (i.e. keeping their device charged).

If, by contrast, the app that the passenger used to display their m-ticket suddenly went down (or as has happened in the past, the Railcard app refuses to display a validly bought Railcard), then even though it would be a technical breach, an argument of abuse of process would be more likely to succeed - though there would still be no guarantee.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If, by contrast, the app that the passenger used to buy their ticket suddenly went down, then even though it would be a technical breach, an argument of abuse of process would be more likely to succeed, though there would still be no guarantee.

That has, of course, happened to the Railcard system. Some staff were reasonable, others weren't.

 

[Watershed]

That has, of course, happened to the Railcard system. Some staff were reasonable, others weren't.

Indeed. The main reason why I refuse to use the Railcard app (though there may be no choice in future) is that the conditions explicitly purport to disclaim liability in the event of app malfunction.

Now something like that is fine on e.g. YouTube, where if it goes down for a while, it's just a nuisance and obviously it would be unreasonable for them to be liable for anything.

But it's absolutely unacceptable on an app that could cause you to commit a criminal offence if it breaks. And it's rather telling as to the RDG's and industry's attitude to customer service that such a clause is even inserted into the conditions - even if it is actually unenforceable.

Back to the original point, something like that would probably be a prima facie example of the limited kinds of circumstances where, even though an offence has been committed, the courts may choose to stay proceedings, or simply give an absolute discharge. The OP's case certainly doesn't seem to come into this category.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. The main reason why I refuse to use the Railcard app (though there may be no choice in future) is that the conditions explicitly purport to disclaim liability in the event of app malfunction.

Same. I am continuing with a plastic Railcard until such time as Railcards work like e-tickets, ideally allowing it to sit in the Apple Wallet app rather than its own app.

 

[Lampshade]

In cases such as this there NEEDS to be a way of dealing with it without the railway effectively shouting "CRIMINAL OFFENCE, PROSECUTION!", maybe charged the full single, refundable on proof of ticket provided/confirmed by app .

Phones and batteries die, especially in cold weather.

 

[Haywain]

How about including in that the ability to log onto your railway ticket account at a TVM and reprint?

We looked into having an ability for customers to be able to log into their account at a TVM and very few people were in favour so it was not progressed. I think that opposition would still persist. That's not to say that I entirely disagree with what you suggest. However, this is getting wildly off topic.

In cases such as this there NEEDS to be a way of dealing with it without the railway effectively shouting "CRIMINAL OFFENCE, PROSECUTION!", maybe charged the full single, refundable on proof of ticket provided/confirmed by app .

Or by reporting but not progressing to prosecution if the eTicket can be presented and there is no evidence of misuse, albeit with some sort of fee for the additional work involved.

 

[mmh]

In cases such as this there NEEDS to be a way of dealing with it without the railway effectively shouting "CRIMINAL OFFENCE, PROSECUTION!", maybe charged the full single, refundable on proof of ticket provided/confirmed by app .

Phones and batteries die, especially in cold weather.

The railway should never have been allowed to create its own laws. Or, if that was appropriate at some point it certainly isn't now and should be removed. Fat chance though, unfortunately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We looked into having an ability for customers to be able to log into their account at a TVM and very few people were in favour so it was not progressed. I think that opposition would still persist. That's not to say that I entirely disagree with what you suggest. However, this is getting wildly off topic.

I will reply to this on the associated speculative thread:

E-ticket "battery" issue - is names on tickets an option for a fix?

With yet another thread having come up in D&P about a battery having run out and a hefty out of court settlement being demanded, is there a simple fix to all this staring the railway in the face? Most train tickets are bought by the person who will use them with no intention of transfer, and of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[londonbridge]

Because byelaw 18.2 says "a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person".

Not "a person must be willing to hand over", not "a person shall hand over his ticket within half an hour after gaining access to it", or anything else.

If the person does not hand over his ticket when asked to do so, it's an offence (unless one of the defences in byelaw 18.3, such as travel from a station with no ticketing facilities, applies).

How long does it take to get sone juice in your phone so you can show the ticket? Two minutes maybe? How is that different to a woman on the train taking a minute or so to rummage through her handbag to find a ticket and show it?

 

[AM9]

I really can't see a valid objection to carrying a plastic railcard (if needed) and a paper ticket, (be it CCST, PRT or printed e-ticket). A railcard weighs about 5gs as does a single A4 sheet of 80GSM paper. For those that don't want to take the risk on mobile technology malfunctioning, or their memopry malfunctioning by not ensuring that their mobile device's battery has a sufficient charge, but expect to be able to continue withou penalty when their choice and use of a device prevents them being able to prove that they have authority to travel, the extra 10g is hardly going to weigh them down. Of course those paper/plastic items can be lost/stolen, but so can a mobile, a charging cable, a power bank etc., - the responsibility expected af an aadult when travelling by public transport is hardly a challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long does it take to get sone juice in your phone so you can show the ticket? Two minutes maybe? How is that different to a woman on the train taking a minute or so to rummage through her handbag to find a ticket and show it?

I can't speak for all phones, but with a recent iPhone it takes about 30 seconds to a minute to be able to power it on if connected to the juice and flat when it was connected.

I really can't see a valid objection to carrying a plastic railcard (if needed) and a paper ticket, (be it CCST, PRT or printed e-ticket).

There isn't much of a disadvantage of a plastic Railcard that permanently lives in your wallet as mine does. Though some young people no longer carry a wallet.

A paper ticket has the disadvantage that you have to print it, either at home or at a TVM. Both of those are extra faff.

 

[AM9]

I can't speak for all phones, but with a recent iPhone it takes about 30 seconds to a minute to be able to power it on if connected to the juice and flat when it was connected.



There isn't much of a disadvantage of a plastic Railcard that permanently lives in your wallet as mine does. Though some young people no longer carry a wallet.

A paper ticket has the disadvantage that you have to print it, either at home or at a TVM. Both of those are extra faff.

Then those who are so irritated with the faff of printing a ticket should weigh that up with the (admittedly small) risk of penalties resulting from their not complying with the need to display their ticket when requested.

 

[mmh]

I can't speak for all phones, but with a recent iPhone it takes about 30 seconds to a minute to be able to power it on if connected to the juice and flat when it was connected.



There isn't much of a disadvantage of a plastic Railcard that permanently lives in your wallet as mine does. Though some young people no longer carry a wallet.

A paper ticket has the disadvantage that you have to print it, either at home or at a TVM. Both of those are extra faff.

I think I'm of the same sort of generation as you, and I don't usually carry a "wallet." I do have a phone case with a couple of cards and (far too many) paper train tickets in though. Cases like that seem pretty commonly used by younger people too.

The less-faff option you've not mentioned is to get someone else to print the ticket for you - a ticket office or a guard/conductor/gateline staff. Of course then we're pretty much going around in circles, there's no real reason all of those staff can't print off your previously purchased ticket for you other than the railway's insistence that the customer is always wrong and guilty until proven innocent!

Such an easy issue to fix, but it won't be.

Then those who are so irritated with the faff of printing a ticket should weigh that up with the (admittedly small) risk of penalties resulting from their not complying with the need to display their ticket when requested.

Less than an hour ago I bought a ticket on my phone, unavailable as an e-ticket, away from home, on my way to an unstaffed station. I'm now relying on my phone to be able to display the ticket. How do you suggest I print out the ticket? It wouldn't just be faff, it would be impossible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Such an easy issue to fix, but it won't be.

It won't be fixed because the railway makes a nice earner of those out of court settlements and Penalty Fares. It is in the railway's interest to screw over customers so it will continue to do so.

I suspect their attitude would be different if all they got from an evasion case was the fare evaded plus the actual, timesheeted cost of the staff who processed the case while processing it and receipted costs of paper, postage etc. In that case why wouldn't you stop making it hard for people to travel legally?

 

[AM9]

I think I'm of the same sort of generation as you, and I don't usually carry a "wallet." I do have a phone case with a couple of cards and (far too many) paper train tickets in though. Cases like that seem pretty commonly used by younger people too.

The less-faff option you've not mentioned is to get someone else to print the ticket for you - a ticket office or a guard/conductor/gateline staff. Of course then we're pretty much going around in circles, there's no real reason all of those staff can't print off your previously purchased ticket for you other than the railway's insistence that the customer is always wrong and guilty until proven innocent!

Such an easy issue to fix, but it won't be.


Less than an hour ago I bought a ticket on my phone, unavailable as an e-ticket, away from home, on my way to an unstaffed station. I'm now relying on my phone to be able to display the ticket. How do you suggest I print out the ticket? It wouldn't just be faff, it would be impossible.

If it really bothered you then carry a second phone to snap the image on the primary phone, - any type that can take a picture would be suitable, most people I know have their old phone that still works. In my experience, mobile phones rarely fail at random, so it would be a long shot. If that's too much then ensure that you get the security of a paper ticket and eschew the convenience of using your less reliable phone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it really bothered you then carry a second phone to snap the image on the primary phone, - any type that can take a picture would be suitable, most people I know have their old phone that still works. In my experience, mobile phones rarely fail at random, so it would be a long shot. If that's too much then ensure that you get the security of a paper ticket and eschew the convenience of using your less reliable phone.

They're talking about an m-ticket, which unlike an e-ticket is NOT valid as a screenshot.

 

[mmh]

If it really bothered you then carry a second phone to snap the image on the primary phone, - any type that can take a picture would be suitable, most people I know have their old phone that still works. In my experience, mobile phones rarely fail at random, so it would be a long shot. If that's too much then ensure that you get the security of a paper ticket and eschew the convenience of using your less reliable phone.

Is this an early April Fool? Take a picture of an Aztec code displayed on a screen and expect it still to be readable?

Of course mobile phones fail at random. They don't fail at predictable times.

They're talking about an m-ticket, which unlike an e-ticket is NOT valid as a screenshot.

Indeed. Although as my M-tickets are Aztec codes displayed in an app, next time I use one perhaps I'll try to use a Polaroid of it instead. Or perhaps not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this an early April Fool? Take a picture of an Aztec code displayed on a screen and expect it still to be readable?

Why wouldn't it be, unless your phone is from about 2005 and so has an awful camera? M-tickets aren't valid in that form, though.

 

[mmh]

Why wouldn't it be, unless your phone is from about 2005 and so has an awful camera? M-tickets aren't valid in that form, though.

Because most people, me included, take terrible blurred pictures with the best of cameras?

It has got me wondering though. Why wouldn't a picture of my ticket be valid? All it is is an Aztec code, nothing special about it other than it's only "delivered" to me in an app.

 

[AM9]

Because most people, me included, take terrible blurred pictures with the best of cameras?

It has got me wondering though. Why wouldn't a picture of my ticket be valid? All it is is an Aztec code, nothing special about it other than it's only "delivered" to me in an app.

It would be valid, after all they are sent as .pdfs so they can be printed which is only a picture comprising laser toner particles of ink drops. You would of course need to ensure that moire' patterning was minimised.

 

[Haywain]

It would be valid, after all they are sent as .pdfs

An eTicket would be, but an mTicket wouldn't. The latter is only valid to be shown within an app (and, frankly, is a rubbish way of doing things).

 

[AM9]

An eTicket would be, but an mTicket wouldn't. The latter is only valid to be shown within an app (and, frankly, is a rubbish way of doing things).

I've never used or seen an 'M ticket' so I was assuming that the conversation is about e-tickets. I've used e-tickets occasionally so I am familiar with them but there's little need for them in the NSE and travelcard areas in which normally regularly travel.
From what is often mentioned here, I imagine that M tickets are only available on mobile devices through an application, so there isn't any way that they would become mandatory because it would make possession of a mobile device a condition of travel.

 

[mmh]

It would be valid, after all they are sent as .pdfs so they can be printed which is only a picture comprising laser toner particles of ink drops. You would of course need to ensure that moire' patterning was minimised.

My ticket is NOT sent as a PDF. There is no way to receive it as a PDF. It is "delivered" to the app.

Sorry, but I'm not sure why you seem to disbelieve me. I have nothing I can print out, other than potentially a screenshot.

From what is often mentioned here, I imagine that M tickets are only available on mobile devices through an application, so there isn't any way that they would become mandatory because it would make possession of a mobile device a condition of travel.

Rather depends on what you mean by "mandatory." My ticket is only available as an app "delivered" m-ticket. Of course there are other tickets for the same journey, which if my phone should break I'll be liable to buy one of, despite having already paid.

 

[Haywain]

My ticket is NOT sent as a PDF. There is no way to receive it as a PDF. It is "delivered" to the app.

Perhaps trying a different app would help.

 

[mmh]

Perhaps trying a different app would help.

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this. The ticket I have is only available on the app. A single app. There is no other way to get it. No way to receive a PDF, no way to print, other than as I have explained to screenshot it and print that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm not sure how many times I need to explain this. The ticket I have is only available on the app. A single app. There is no other way to get it. No way to receive a PDF, no way to print, other than as I have explained to screenshot it and print that.

I think the point is more that if a particular company is only offering etickets as tickets direct to their own app then they aren't doing etickets right (GWR were like this a couple of years ago but now do it properly) and so it may be a good idea to change which company you buy your tickets from so you use an app where they do actually do etickets right (and thus send you a pdf etc). Obviously it doesn't help for any tickets you've already bought but it would for future plans!