Apprenticeship Trainee Drivers

[ComUtoR]

Functional skills qualifications?

bksb | What are functional skills?

bksb answers one of the most-commonly asked questions in skills training - what are functional skills?

www.bksb.co.uk

Maths, English and ICT are a requirement to take part in the apprenticeship, candidates that have not got them or evidence to show they have them will have to take the qualifications. That’s what was explained to me during my DMI.

Functional Skills are the equivalent qualification rather than resitting GCSE Maths and English.

 

[43066]

My TOC, like most now it seems, have fully transitioned to all external trainees being classed as apprenticeships, internal is in progress.

Obviously they are doing this to get the government cash towards training costs (dubious imo), but I wondered if anyone here is currently on one of these apprenticeships and whether there are any real differences.

For instance, so you have any coursework to complete? If so, how much?
Also, are you allocated time within your work hours to complete this coursework?
Will the training plan be longer and include any extra modules?

My TOC is offering the same wage (training and PQ), are other TOCs the same?

Personally, if I was given the choice I would prefer not to be an on apprenticeship but I'm not sure I will get the choice!

Agreed - complete waste of time and (public) money and you’re simply not gaining anything remotely useful from it. The TOCs used to do all this training off their own back and still would if they didn’t have access to this scheme.

most students are paid 18k a year to be on an apprenticeship and I’ll be earning 58k, I couldn’t be more happy!

Completely the wrong way of looking at it in my view. You’re not a student, you’re being paid to learn to do a job, and the going rate for that has long been far higher than £18k. Keep in mind that many people coming into the job will have had previous careers and may well be taking a substantial pay cut to train, which can be difficult for those with families, mortgages etc., so comments like “I’m just grateful I’m earning more than £18k” might not go down too well with your course mates!

EDIT: if you’re at TPE and move up to £58k during training then that’s great, and is indeed a lot higher than most (all?) other TOCs will pay before you’re productive. That’s especially good for career changers as I know many really struggle on the training wages. Still doesn’t change the points in relation to the apprenticeship, though!

The problem is that it's not an apprenticeship. You're not gaining any meaningful qualifications. You're not getting anything you wouldn't have got from the traineeship. But the TOCs get some money that isn't being used for its intended purpose.

IIRC, about 6 years or so ago, Virgin Trains took on a few Driver Apprentices, who spent a couple of years working around the business prior to their driver training, and were put through the IRO courses. That's an apprenticeship.

What TOCs are doing now, which is just trainee drivers by another name with a meaningless "functional skills" qualification, isn't.

100%.

 

[michael74]

Agreed - complete waste of time and (public) money and you’re simply not gaining anything remotely useful from it. The TOCs used to do all this training off their own back and still would if they didn’t have access to this scheme.

Its not public money, its a levy on companies with who employ over a certain amount of people, which they can draw back down on to fund their own Apprenticeships (I and others have already have said this more than once).

Remember Drivers are not the only staff grade in the Railways and TOCs use the levy to fund other forms of apprenticeships (Business Admin and Engineering for instance)..... Just because the Drivers Apprenticeship does not look or fit neatly into previous perceptions of what an apprenticeship should like, but nor does the Degree Nurse Apprentice in the NHS, it does not make it useless and in the future it will become more widespread and accepted as it develops further.

 

[NorthernTech]

What TOC pays 58k during training??? Most are high 20's to mid 30k

Strangely TPE pay the full driving wage after just 8 weeks into the course, which I presume is £58k. I’m surprised they do, and I can’t understand why either. They can’t be desperate to recruit, and it takes well over a year before a driver is productive, as well as hotel and training costs, it must cost them (and subsequently their customers) a fortune.

 

[43066]

Its not public money, its a levy on companies with who employ over a certain amount of people, which they can draw back down on to fund their own Apprenticeships (I and others have already have said this more than once).

It is public money by most definitions. Large employers (including TOCs) are forced by the government to pay the levy so it’s essentially a tax. By drawing down money from the apprenticeship fund TOCs are effectively benefiting from a tax break and taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses.

As has also been repeatedly pointed out TOCs would be training up new drivers regardless, so dressing the same course up as an apprenticeship is just a way for them to cynically grab some free cash to reduce their own costs.

I recall from a previous discussion that you’re passionate about this subject because you’ve been involved with apprenticeships previously in another industry. TOCs really aren’t doing this from the kindness of their hearts, because they think their employees benefit from it!

 

[NorthernTech]

It is public money by most definitions. Large employers (including TOCs) are forced by the government to pay the levy so it’s essentially a tax. By drawing down money from the apprenticeship fund TOCs are effectively benefiting from a tax break and taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses.

As has also been repeatedly pointed out TOCs would be training up new drivers regardless, so dressing the same course up as an apprenticeship is just a way for them to cynically grab some free cash to reduce their own costs.

I recall from a previous discussion that you’re passionate about this subject because you’ve been involved with apprenticeships previously in another industry. TOCs really aren’t doing this from the kindness of their hearts, because they think their employees benefit from it!

It would be interesting to find out how much the apprenticeship gives back to the company, as I’d bet it is very little in comparison to the overall cost. Also, it maybe allows for the company to recruit at a time where they maybe be unsure due to costs, especially when times may have been hard (Covid etc). Either way, from an employee point of view, you get what you are given, if the course is a traineeship or apprenticeship, be grateful you are there at all and enjoy learning to become a driver/conductor etc

 

[michael74]

It is public money by most definitions. Large employers (including TOCs) are forced by the government to pay the levy so it’s essentially a tax. By drawing down money from the apprenticeship fund TOCs are effectively benefiting from a tax break and taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses.

As has also been repeatedly pointed out TOCs would be training up new drivers regardless, so dressing the same course up as an apprenticeship is just a way for them to cynically grab some free cash to reduce their own costs.

I recall from a previous discussion that you’re passionate about this subject because you’ve been involved with apprenticeships previously in another industry. TOCs really aren’t doing this from the kindness of their hearts, because they think their employees benefit from it!

"It is public money by most definitions".... Does that mean the NHS shouldn't be running Apprenticeships as well?

"taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses." The Levy does fund apprenticeships in smaller businesses, again I have already stated that....

Yes, I am a part of on Apprenticeships Team at a University (only for the next few weeks) its not because I am passionate about it, its because I understand it fully.

 

[baz962]

"It is public money by most definitions".... Does that mean the NHS shouldn't be running Apprenticeships as well?

"taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses." The Levy does fund apprenticeships in smaller businesses, again I have already stated that....

Yes, I am a part of on Apprenticeships Team at a University (only for the next few weeks) its not because I am passionate about it, its because I understand it fully.

Perhaps we could put it a different way. Save the apprenticeship for those that really need it. Maybe for revenue or ticket staff that might need math skills etc. I was supposed to do this apprenticeship and would of been one of the first at my old toc. We were led to believe it would be math and English type stuff. It got put off until later trainee intakes . I'm glad I didn't have extra work as learning rules and traction could do without other work , your head will spin from what you already need to learn. Of course if a toc wants you to do it , then you will have to do it. But let's be honest it's pointless as a driver. Bombing up and down the line at 125 and I still can't see what use it would have been. Maybe to help me count station stops.

 

[43066]

It would be interesting to find out how much the apprenticeship gives back to the company, as I’d bet it is very little in comparison to the overall cost.

The TOCs are forced to pay into the levy, so whatever they get back is still free cash.

"It is public money by most definitions".... Does that mean the NHS shouldn't be running Apprenticeships as well?

We aren’t taking about the NHS. TOCs are private sector businesses, not public sector organisations.

"taking money out of the fund that could be used to fund real apprenticeships in much smaller businesses." The Levy does fund apprenticeships in smaller businesses, again I have already stated that....

It’s a finite pot of money, which is being depleted by TOCs, to subsidise training they would be doing anyway. I’m honestly not sure why people can’t see that.

Yes, I am a part of on Apprenticeships Team at a University (only for the next few weeks) its not because I am passionate about it, its because I understand it fully.

I hate to tell you this but if you’re expecting your TOC to be a warm and fuzzy employer which cares about its staff and invests a penny more than it has to in them you’re about to get a big shock. That’s not to put you off in any way, just to manage your expectations.

It’s telling that those of us who are cynical about the apprenticeship scheme have invariably worked in the industry for a few years .

 

[NorthernTech]

The TOCs are forced to pay into the levy, so whatever they get back is still free cash.



We aren’t taking about the NHS. TOCs are private sector businesses, not public sector organisations.



It’s a finite pot of money, which is being depleted by TOCs, to subsidise training they would be doing anyway. I’m honestly not sure why people can’t see that.



I hate to tell you this but if you’re expecting your TOC to be a warm and fuzzy employer which cares about its staff and invests a penny more than it has to in them you’re about to get a big shock. That’s not to put you off in any way, just to manage your expectations.

It’s telling that those of us who are cynical about the apprenticeship scheme have invariably worked in the industry for a few years .

So, if they are doing the training anyway, and they are paying into the fund because they have to, then why can’t they use that fund and have a standardised apprenticeship program for their trainees?? Lots of opinions and beef on here, but not much facts!

 

[baz962]

So, if they are doing the training anyway, and they are paying into the fund because they have to, then why can’t they use that fund and have a standardised apprenticeship program for their trainees?? Lots of opinions and beef on here, but not much facts!

I would pretty much say that as 43066 has said it's pointless as a driver and that person is a qualified driver of some years , then that's a pretty hard fact. They didn't do the apprenticeship and they are a pretty damn fine driver.

 

[michael74]

We aren’t taking about the NHS. TOCs are private sector businesses, not public sector organisations.

Your right were not, but both private and public sectors pay into it and benefit from it equally

I hate to tell you this but if you’re expecting your TOC to be a warm and fuzzy employer which cares about its staff and invests a penny more than it has to in them you’re about to get a big shock. That’s not to put you off in any way, just to manage your expectations.

I have spent the last 15 years as an NHS nurse (before this role) and 15 years before that working for penny pinching multinational engineering companies and the British army, I have never experienced warm and fuzzy, I am going itno this with my eyes wide open (and no water behind my ears )

It’s telling that those of us who are cynical about the apprenticeship scheme have invariably worked in the industry for a few years .

This is not exclusive to the railway industry.

Anyway, I feel we are at an impasse here, we have all got our view points and ideas and thoughts and I fully respect them all. As I have said in another thread, in a few weeks time I shall be looking at things from the other end of the telescope and I am both grateful to be getting into the industry and I am looking forward to joining the railway family (and what family doesn't have the odd disagreement eh lol)

 

[NorthernTech]

I would pretty much say that as 43066 has said it's pointless as a driver and that person is a qualified driver of some years , then that's a pretty hard fact. They didn't do the apprenticeship and they are a pretty damn fine driver.

I stand corrected

 

[43066]

I would pretty much say that as 43066 has said it's pointless as a driver and that person is a qualified driver of some years , then that's a pretty hard fact. They didn't do the apprenticeship and they are a pretty damn fine driver.

Lucky mostly .

I trained around when you did I think. My rules course was just before it came in, too, and used as a guinea pig. We did the “workbook” which, as the trainers admitted, was utterly pointless and just tacked onto the existing driver training course which is rules, traction and train handling.

Lots of people already exceed the functional skills requirements, in which case there’s precisely no additional learning for the apprenticeship over and above the driver trainee programme, but are still counted as newly minted apprentices for the purposes of the scheme.

I have spent the last 15 years as an NHS nurse (before this role) and 15 years before that working for penny pinching multinational engineering companies and the British army,

Fair enough, in which case you’ve been well and truly at the sharp end, and apologies if that came across as patronising.

Anyway, I feel we are at an impasse here, we have all got our view points and ideas and thoughts and I fully respect them all. As I have said in another thread, in a few weeks time I shall be looking at things from the other end of the telescope and I am both grateful to be getting into the industry and I am looking forward to joining the railway family (and what family doesn't have the odd disagreement eh lol)

Absolutely - I’m sure you’ll get on well as you’re used to shifts, which are the biggest shock. It is very much a “family” atmosphere.

All the best with it and I look forward to hearing how you’re getting on once you’ve started!

 

[Terry844]

bksb | What are functional skills?

bksb answers one of the most-commonly asked questions in skills training - what are functional skills?

www.bksb.co.uk

Functional Skills are the equivalent qualification rather than resitting GCSE Maths and English.

I know all that, I was pointing out that the GCSE or equivalent was required to be on the apprenticeship, not that you get those out of the apprenticeship hence why people who have no evidence of attaining them are being put through the functional skills course as well.

 

[SJN]

I know all that, I was pointing out that the GCSE or equivalent was required to be on the apprenticeship, not that you get those out of the apprenticeship hence why people who have no evidence of attaining them are being put through the functional skills course as well.

But apart from the functional skills exams, the apprenticeship consists of a few catch up calls and an exam based on rules and Health & Safety some time after you’ve passed out as a driver. I’ve not long passed out but there’s some drivers who passed out a year ago who have only just done that one.

 

[FManc]

I’m doing an apprenticeship at the moment and nearing the end of it. I’m indifferent to it all tbh.

Am I interested in the actual apprenticeship? If I’m being honest, no. But then the way the course is structured you don’t really notice the difference between a “normal” course and an “apprenticeship” course. You’ve got some functional skills to sit at the start of the course (I provided GCSE certificates so didn’t have to do it) and some exams at the end once you’re a productive driver. You have the odd check up call as well whilst you’re training which are straightforward enough.

Do I want the qualification? Again not really that bothered. I’ve already got a degree and even if I didn’t I’m more interested in the job than the qualification.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I’m doing an apprenticeship at the moment and nearing the end of it. I’m indifferent to it all tbh.

Am I interested in the actual apprenticeship? If I’m being honest, no. But then the way the course is structured you don’t really notice the difference between a “normal” course and an “apprenticeship” course. You’ve got some functional skills to sit at the start of the course (I provided GCSE certificates so didn’t have to do it) and some exams at the end once you’re a productive driver. You have the odd check up call as well whilst you’re training which are straightforward enough.

Do I want the qualification? Again not really that bothered. I’ve already got a degree and even if I didn’t I’m more interested in the job than the qualification.

That ties in with a few other responses. It seems those who are actually doing or have done the apprenticeship don't really see the point of it, but at least it doesn't have much of an impact in terms of work or time which is what I was originally asking.

 

[FManc]

Yeah at my TOC there’s no real impact in terms of workload, pay etc….It’s all pretty much the same as it was before apprenticeships were a thing.

That ties in with a few other responses. It seems those who are actually doing or have done the apprenticeship don't really see the point of it, but at least it doesn't have much of an impact in terms of work or time which is what I was originally asking.

 

[Danetime]

I've just done the first two weeks of college as a ''apprenticeship''. At first, I was kinda annoyed/ worried but I ended up really enjoying it. Here's why:

Were a good few weeks to bond as a group and really get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses. So going forward we can really help each other out more.
Get back into a classroom environment. Some of our cohorts haven't been in a classroom environment in decades!
Student discount... for 3 years.
Great lunch (If you are in Exeter)
Great tutors and are up for a good laugh plus they are super helpful.

Overall I feel so much more confident going into 'Intro to ops' and rules.

Remember if you have a C in GSCE or equivalent grade (They can be found on the Pearson website). You don't have to do that subject.

One thing I will say though if you do end up going to college. Please, don't moan at the tutors and complain endlessly as some previous groups did. These tutors want to help you and you are probably already getting paid a lot more money than they are for just sitting there with your free lunch.

 

[iwasyoungonce]

If you already have the GCSE's what do you do for that 2 weeks ?

 

[Danetime]

Chilled at home. The guys that had all the GCSEs had to pop online on the first day for a 'refreshers' day. Some even popped into college just to brush up on some areas, others came to help others out.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I've just done the first two weeks of college as a ''apprenticeship''. At first, I was kinda annoyed/ worried but I ended up really enjoying it. Here's why:

Were a good few weeks to bond as a group and really get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses. So going forward we can really help each other out more.
Get back into a classroom environment. Some of our cohorts haven't been in a classroom environment in decades!
Student discount... for 3 years.
Great lunch (If you are in Exeter)
Great tutors and are up for a good laugh plus they are super helpful.

Overall I feel so much more confident going into 'Intro to ops' and rules.

Remember if you have a C in GSCE or equivalent grade (They can be found on the Pearson website). You don't have to do that subject.

One thing I will say though if you do end up going to college. Please, don't moan at the tutors and complain endlessly as some previous groups did. These tutors want to help you and you are probably already getting paid a lot more money than they are for just sitting there with your free lunch.

I've done an apprenticeship before when I was 16 that was part college, but I wasn't (aren't) expecting any college time for driver roles, are you doing a driver apprenticeship?

 

[SJN]

I've done an apprenticeship before when I was 16 that was part college, but I wasn't (aren't) expecting any college time for driver roles, are you doing a driver apprenticeship?

At my TOC there was no college time and I don’t believe any others in my area which includes WMR do either. The tutors come to the driver training school.

 

[Danetime]

I've done an apprenticeship before when I was 16 that was part college, but I wasn't (aren't) expecting any college time for driver roles, are you doing a driver apprenticeship?

Yea doing the apprenticeship at the moment. It's nothing like a 'real' or a full-time apprenticeship like you would imagine. Also, it's not a requirement for the job you can literally fail the apprenticeship side and still pass out and get your key.

If you have to the Maths, English or ICT don't panic. I did the first week of classroom study for my English and then went for all the exams for English (Writing, Reading and Talking). I have no qualification in English from school whats so ever and honestly, was really nervous about it. I also went for the ICT exam as I've spent the last 10 years in an office environment, again no formal qualifications in ICT.

Passed all the exams I needed to. Now on the last week of college, I can relax and enjoy the free lunch plus help the others out if needed.

 

[nb2001uk]

Yea doing the apprenticeship at the moment. It's nothing like a 'real' or a full-time apprenticeship like you would imagine. Also, it's not a requirement for the job you can literally fail the apprenticeship side and still pass out and get your key.

If you have to the Maths, English or ICT don't panic. I did the first week of classroom study for my English and then went for all the exams for English (Writing, Reading and Talking). I have no qualification in English from school whats so ever and honestly, was really nervous about it. I also went for the ICT exam as I've spent the last 10 years in an office environment, again no formal qualifications in ICT.

Passed all the exams I needed to. Now on the last week of college, I can relax and enjoy the free lunch plus help the others out if needed.

How long do you have to do the GCSE side of things for? If you haven't got a maths GCSE for example.

 

[SJN]

How long do you have to do the GCSE side of things for? If you haven't got a maths GCSE for example.

Well our group did a day induction then they gave us access to a website to practice, then there was a week for the exams and we got 1 day where the tutor went through it with us before we did the exam.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yea doing the apprenticeship at the moment. It's nothing like a 'real' or a full-time apprenticeship like you would imagine. Also, it's not a requirement for the job you can literally fail the apprenticeship side and still pass out and get your key.

If you have to the Maths, English or ICT don't panic. I did the first week of classroom study for my English and then went for all the exams for English (Writing, Reading and Talking). I have no qualification in English from school whats so ever and honestly, was really nervous about it. I also went for the ICT exam as I've spent the last 10 years in an office environment, again no formal qualifications in ICT.

Passed all the exams I needed to. Now on the last week of college, I can relax and enjoy the free lunch plus help the others out if needed.

Thankfully I won't have that issue being Microsoft certified but it's very interesting to hear some are doing it at colleges

 

[Numbskull100]

Thankfully I won't have that issue being Microsoft certified but it's very interesting to hear some are doing it at colleges

I've not got level 2 in ICT but have taught level 2 ICT in a high school for several years. I am hoping to find a way round it to be honest, but not sure if there is one!

 

[Quin79]

Surprised a TOC pays that much from the off