Louth Reopening and London Service for Sleaford

[DeltaAustralia]

I know that there's a feasibility study being carried out to restore the railway from Firsby to Louth and Mablethorpe, and Sleaford really want a direct service to London. I think we can combine both these ideas.

I don't know if it'd be two-hourly or just once a day, but you could have a service (probably by LNER) like this:
London King's Cross, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford (reverses), Boston, and then the potential line at Firsby to Louth and Mablethorpe. Would probably have to be a 5-coach Azuma because of the short platforms. The benefits and number of people served, though, would be massive!

Louth/Mablethorpe should also be served by local trains calling at the potential new stations between it and Boston, maybe an hourly service to somewhere like Sleaford, Lincoln or Nottingham (whichever has the most paths available).

Alternatively, if the junction at Firsby is restored which faces Skegness, have an all-stopping local service between Louth/Mablethorpe and Skegness, as the stations such as Wainfleet and Thorpe Culvert don't get a lot of trains (but maybe miss out Havenhouse on most services because it has less than one person a day use it).

Is this a good idea, or what? Share your feedback.

 

[JonathanH]

Is this a good idea, or what? Share your feedback.

I recognise the optimism but this area can't support a daily coach to London - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-express-general-discussion.206382/page-4#post-5362888. How is it going to get anywhere near providing the custom for a railway service using a 5-car Azuma?

An early morning service is probably out of the question as there is no suitable stabling point. An out and back daytime service could be possible but how high is the revenue going to be? How is the unit freed up from another service?

The benefits and number of people served, though, would be massive!

Realistically, what do those people do at the moment? Presumably they railhead somewhere by car or just don't have all that much business in London? Changing that mentality takes a lot of effort.

How does it do against these principles?

Altnabreac's 5 golden rules of a successful rail reopening:

• Population of 10,000+
• 60 minutes (75 at a push) journey time of a major employment centre.
• Extant or mainly unobstructed trackbed
• Ability to extend an existing service so more terminal capacity is not required.
  
• Regeneration Potential of a deprived area

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I know that there's a feasibility study being carried out to restore the railway from Firsby to Louth and Mablethorpe, and Sleaford really want a direct service to London. I think we can combine both these ideas.

I don't know if it'd be two-hourly or just once a day, but you could have a service (probably by LNER) like this:
London King's Cross, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford (reverses), Boston, and then the potential line at Firsby to Louth and Mablethorpe. Would probably have to be a 5-coach Azuma because of the short platforms. The benefits and number of people served, though, would be massive!

Louth/Mablethorpe should also be served by local trains calling at the potential new stations between it and Boston, maybe an hourly service to somewhere like Sleaford, Lincoln or Nottingham (whichever has the most paths available).

Alternatively, if the junction at Firsby is restored which faces Skegness, have an all-stopping local service between Louth/Mablethorpe and Skegness, as the stations such as Wainfleet and Thorpe Culvert don't get a lot of trains (but maybe miss out Havenhouse on most services because it has less than one person a day use it).

Is this a good idea, or what? Share your feedback.

Is there a feasibility study???? It was rejected in the restoring your railway! There is no case it would be too expensive to rebuild the railway. It’s an idea which is dead to begin with

I recognise the optimism but this area can't support a daily coach to London - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-express-general-discussion.206382/page-4#post-5362888. How is it going to get anywhere near providing the custom for a railway service using a 5-car Azuma?


Realistically, what do those people do at the moment? Presumably they railhead somewhere by car or just don't have all that much business in London? Changing that mentality takes a lot of effort.

How does it do against these principles?

Here we go with principles: for Louth reopening

1. Yes
2. Not sure
3. No it’s been built on in Louth and Alford
4. No
5. Yes

 

[TheBigD]

You could easily serve Sleaford with a London service by diverting the existing Lincoln to Kings Cross services via the Joint line.

I doubt that serving Sleaford and Spalding would make up for the loss of revenue from serving Grantham and Newark, or the slower journey time to/from Lincoln. Joint Line via Sleaford takes around 15 minutes longer than via Newark.

 

[Western Lord]

There were 19 level crossings between Firsby and Louth, unlikely that they would be allowed on a reopened railway.

 

[Starmill]

I'm surprised / disappointed that the National Express service between East Lincolnshire and London has been permanently withdrawn, I missed that.

How does it do against these principles?

5. Is more of a Scottish thing. The benefits it generates under STAG are greater than those under WebTAG (the transport appraisal guidance used in England).

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

If one was to build a line to Louth and Mablethorpe, surely the way to do it would be to come off some near Market Rasen, thus providing direct links to Lincoln, and good connections beyond. You could then also serve, and link, both the places, and the new line would be shorter.

 

[JonathanH]

It is certainly an interesting concept that if there were a desire to restore a railway network in more of Lincolnshire, it may make sense to just start from a blank sheet of paper rather than trying to use the historic alignments, particularly with the need to avoid the use of level crossings.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

If one was to build a line to Louth and Mablethorpe, surely the way to do it would be to come off some near Market Rasen, thus providing direct links to Lincoln, and good connections beyond. You could then also serve, and link, both the places, and the new line would be shorter.

Interestingly thats never been suggested but yeah it would be much shorter

It is certainly an interesting concept that if there were a desire to restore a railway network in more of Lincolnshire, it may make sense to just start from a blank sheet of paper rather than trying to use the historic alignments, particularly with the need to avoid the use of level crossings.

Watch Gareth Dennis’s railnatter on how to be a good crayonista the answer being dont use old railway alignments for the sake of it use a new alignment and then if there happens to be on old alignment that can be used then use it otherwise dont bother

 

[class26]

You could easily serve Sleaford with a London service by diverting the existing Lincoln to Kings Cross services via the Joint line.

I doubt that serving Sleaford and Spalding would make up for the loss of revenue from serving Grantham and Newark, or the slower journey time to/from Lincoln. Joint Line via Sleaford takes around 15 minutes longer than via Newark.

It wouldn`t be 15 mins longer. More like 7 or 8 and I have heard it would be not difficult to raise line speeds on the Joint line for certain train types. The present timetable between Lincoln and Peterborough direct doesn`t fully reflect the higher speeds now possible

The only hope of a new line north from Firsby is if the proposed nuclear waste site near Mablethorpe is built. That would require a rail link , presumably paid for by the nuclear authorities and a passenger service could piggy back onto it?

If one was to build a line to Louth and Mablethorpe, surely the way to do it would be to come off some near Market Rasen, thus providing direct links to Lincoln, and good connections beyond. You could then also serve, and link, both the places, and the new line would be shorter.

No. Look at a map with contours. I live there.by the way. The old line from Louth to Firsby skirts the Lincolnshire Wolds. Markets Rasen to Louth would cross the Wolds. It is a myth that Lincolnshire is flat, the Wolds are surprisingly hilly in winters lorries frequently cannot climb a hill outside Louth. There would need to be several tunnels making the cost too great. Firsby would be the way.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It wouldn`t be 15 mins longer. More like 7 or 8 and I have heard it would be not difficult to raise line speeds on the Joint line for certain train types. The present timetable between Lincoln and Peterborough direct doesn`t fully reflect the higher speeds now possible

The only hope of a new line north from Firsby is if the proposed nuclear waste site near Mablethorpe is built. That would require a rail link , presumably paid for by the nuclear authorities and a passenger service could piggy back onto it?


No. Look at a map with contours. I live there.by the way. The old line from Louth to Firsby skirts the Lincolnshire Wolds. Markets Rasen to Louth would cross the Wolds. It is a myth that Lincolnshire is flat, the Wolds are surprisingly hilly in winters lorries frequently cannot climb a hill outside Louth. There would need to be several tunnels making the cost too great. Firsby would be the way.

But a Louth rail link is a non-starter

 

[TheBigD]

It wouldn`t be 15 mins longer. More like 7 or 8 and I have heard it would be not difficult to raise line speeds on the Joint line for certain train types. The present timetable between Lincoln and Peterborough direct doesn`t fully reflect the higher speeds now possible.

The bit via Sleaford is the slow bit. 20mph (I think, but could be lower) turnouts off the Joint Line, and into/out of Sleaford West. Add a station stop at Sleaford and Spalding then you're looking at around 10 minutes longer than a non stop service.

If you avoid Sleaford then Peterborough to Lincoln can be done in around 65 minutes non stop, but that defeats the object of sending them that way to serve Sleaford.

It is around an hour via Newark with stops at Newark and Grantham, hence it is around 15 minutes longer via Sleaford.

The local service was speeded up slightly with the recent timetable enhancements, seeing around a 5 minute reduction.

Line speed is predominantly 75mph north of Spalding and 70mph south of Spalding. I seem to remember that when the route upgrade happened in 2013 that there was some provison for up to 90 mph running but that would require more work and funding.

 

[class26]

The bit via Sleaford is the slow bit. 20mph (I think, but could be lower) turnouts off the Joint Line, and into/out of Sleaford West. Add a station stop at Sleaford and Spalding then you're looking at around 10 minutes longer than a non stop service.

If you avoid Sleaford then Peterborough to Lincoln can be done in around 65 minutes non stop, but that defeats the object of sending them that way to serve Sleaford.

It is around an hour via Newark with stops at Newark and Grantham, hence it is around 15 minutes longer via Sleaford.

The local service was speeded up slightly with the recent timetable enhancements, seeing around a 5 minute reduction.

Line speed is predominantly 75mph north of Spalding and 70mph south of Spalding. I seem to remember that when the route upgrade happened in 2013 that there was some provison for up to 90 mph running but that would require more work and funding.

The majority of trains between Lincoln and Peterborough with all stops is 73 minutes. Take out Ruskington and Metheringham (allowing 3 mins per stop) that brings it down to 67 minutes INCLUDING Sleaford. That is very close to the direct timing and the local service hasn`t fully been re timed to take into account the line speed increases so perhaps a minute or two to come yet. In that case it is almost the same timing as via Newark. I contend not enough to make any appreciable difference.

deleted

 

[Railwaysceptic]

It is a myth that Lincolnshire is flat, the Wolds are surprisingly hilly in winters lorries frequently cannot climb a hill outside Louth.

Oh, come on! The Wolds do not typify Lincolnshire which is mainly flat. Not as flat as Cambridgeshire but definitely one of the least hilly counties in the U.K.

 

[class26]

Oh, come on! The Wolds do not typify Lincolnshire which is mainly flat. Not as flat as Cambridgeshire but definitely one of the least hilly counties in the U.K.

Do you know the Lincolnshire Wolds ? South Lincs is flat but we are not talking about this. The Wolds are hilly and not country you would ideally (and cheaply) build a railway through. Not the Alps certainly but very hilly

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Do you know the Lincolnshire Wolds ? South Lincs is flat but we are not talking about this. The Wolds are hilly and not country you would ideally (and cheaply) build a railway through. Not the Alps certainly but very hilly

Yes, I do, and that's how I know they are not typical of Lincolnshire in general. I haven't been to Lincolnshire since Covid set in but before then I used to visit two or three times a year. By the way, I haven't suggested it makes sense to build a new railway through the Wolds.

As you're a railway enthusiast, I take it for granted that you're familiar with the several in-cab videos of railway lines in the county. These make it abundantly clear that it's not only south Lincolnshire that's flat.

 

[class26]

B

Yes, I do, and that's how I know they are not typical of Lincolnshire in general. I haven't been to Lincolnshire since Covid set in but before then I used to visit two or three times a year. By the way, I haven't suggested it makes sense to build a new railway through the Wolds.

As you're a railway enthusiast, I take it for granted that you're familiar with the several in-cab videos of railway lines in the county. These make it abundantly clear that it's not only south Lincolnshire that's flat.

I am born and bred in Lincolnshire. We are talking about Market Rasen to Louth . That was the point made above and a direct line between the two to which my point is that has to cross the Wolds which are hilly . I fail to see what south the lincs fens have to do with this.

 

[DeltaAustralia]

You could easily serve Sleaford with a London service by diverting the existing Lincoln to Kings Cross services via the Joint line.

I doubt that serving Sleaford and Spalding would make up for the loss of revenue from serving Grantham and Newark, or the slower journey time to/from Lincoln. Joint Line via Sleaford takes around 15 minutes longer than via Newark.

I already tried suggesting that.

If one was to build a line to Louth and Mablethorpe, surely the way to do it would be to come off some near Market Rasen, thus providing direct links to Lincoln, and good connections beyond. You could then also serve, and link, both the places, and the new line would be shorter.

I've tried suggesting something similar to that as well.

The majority of trains between Lincoln and Peterborough with all stops is 73 minutes. Take out Ruskington and Metheringham (allowing 3 mins per stop) that brings it down to 67 minutes INCLUDING Sleaford. That is very close to the direct timing and the local service hasn`t fully been re timed to take into account the line speed increases so perhaps a minute or two to come yet. In that case it is almost the same timing as via Newark. I contend not enough to make any appreciable difference.

And that doesn't take into account possible new stations at Branston/Heighington and Donington.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I am born and bred in Lincolnshire. We are talking about Market Rasen to Louth . That was the point made above and a direct line between the two to which my point is that has to cross the Wolds which are hilly . I fail to see what south the lincs fens have to do with this.

You seem to have forgotten what you've posted in the past two days. In Post 10 you stated that it's a myth that Lincolnshire is flat. This is a generalisation about the county and is not specific to a railway between Market Rasen and Louth. In Post 15 you stated that south Lincolnshire is flat and indicated that this is not representative of most of the county. This generalisation is also not specific to a mooted new railway. Therefore anyone challenging your generalisations is not referring to a new railway.

 

[class26]

You seem to have forgotten what you've posted in the past two days. In Post 10 you stated that it's a myth that Lincolnshire is flat. This is a generalisation about the county and is not specific to a railway between Market Rasen and Louth. In Post 15 you stated that south Lincolnshire is flat and indicated that this is not representative of most of the county. This generalisation is also not specific to a mooted new railway. Therefore anyone challenging your generalisations is not referring to a new railway.

Why are you being so pedantic? I would have thought what I was trying to say was perfectly clear
Let me try one more time in plain English
My point about Lincs being flat is a general point as it has fairly hilly parts which not many appreciate because that is the popular view of Lincs. Still with me ?
Now the post is about the Wolds area which is NOT flat at all and you wouldn`t build a railway line through. The original line from Grimsby to Peterborough skirted the wolds to avoid these hills and I was saying that you would not ideally connect Louth to M Rasen but go south ie as the now closed line did.
I trust that is clear ???

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Why are you being so pedantic? I would have thought what I was trying to say was perfectly clear
Let me try one more time in plain English
My point about Lincs being flat is a general point as it has fairly hilly parts which not many appreciate because that is the popular view of Lincs. Still with me ?
Now the post is about the Wolds area which is NOT flat at all and you wouldn`t build a railway line through. The original line from Grimsby to Peterborough skirted the wolds to avoid these hills and I was saying that you would not ideally connect Louth to M Rasen but go south ie as the now closed line did.
I trust that is clear ???

It is absolutely clear that you have made incorrect generalisations about the landscape of Lincolnshire, that you resent anyone pointing out your mistake and that you are trying to obfuscate. I suggest you stop digging that hole any deeper and you stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[class26]

It is absolutely clear that you have made incorrect generalisations about the landscape of Lincolnshire, that you resent anyone pointing out your mistake and that you are trying to obfuscate. I suggest you stop digging that hole any deeper and you stop wasting everyone's time.

What i have said is totally clear, you are creating an argument out of nothing. Everything I have written is completely true so stop tryign to pick holes where they do not exist.
The point is the north of Lincs is NOT flat in any sens eof the word and many, who have not been there will not realise this. That is the point .
THE END
Apologies to Mods and others for my rant but there is a limit to everything.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

You are ridiculous. What i have said is totally clear, you are creating an argument out of nothing. Everything I have written is completely true so stop tryign to pick holes where they do not exist.
The point is the north of Lincs is NOT flat in any sens eof the word and many, who have not been there will not realise this. That is the point .
THE END
Apologies to Mods and others for my rant but there is a limit to everything.

Barton-on Humber is in north Lincolnshire. Here is a YouTube video showing the line and the landscape:

This comprehensively disproves your assertion that the north of Lincolnshire is not flat in any sense of the word. Here is another YouTube Video from Barnetby to Gainsborough:

This shows very clearly that much of Lincolnshire is flat.

I'm not going to waste any more time on you. Anyone coming new to this thread will be able to read the various posts and draw their own conclusions.

 

[Cowley]

Differences of opinion are fine but please don’t get angry and personal with each other.

Rather than us deleting things can we keep things constructive from here and bear in mind people that are looking at this thread and just want to learn rather than read arguments!

Thanks everyone.

 

[Tomnick]

Barton-on Humber is in north Lincolnshire. Here is a YouTube video showing the line and the landscape:

This comprehensively disproves your assertion that the north of Lincolnshire is not flat in any sense of the word. Here is another YouTube Video from Barnetby to Gainsborough:

This shows very clearly that much of Lincolnshire is flat.

I'm not going to waste any more time on you. Anyone coming new to this thread will be able to read the various posts and draw their own conclusions.

Much of Lincolnshire is more-or-less flat, but much of it is also far from flat. Less than five miles from Barton, there is land that's over 100m above sea level.

To go back to the original point, the bit of Lincolnshire that lies between Market Rasen and Louth is particularly hilly, which is presumably why the MS&LR funnelled three routes together through Barnetby (where there's a gap in the otherwise continuous line of the Wolds).

 

[Bevan Price]

Sadly I fear it would cost too much, and in any case to be really useful, they would also need to reopen Grimsby to Louth, and the direct line between Boston & Spalding. You cannot rely on tourist traffic to the coast (mostly just in summer) to finance a railway; you need to get "all-year" traffic, and that involves serving large towns - of which Grimsby (88000) + Cleethorpes (38000) are the largest in that area of Lincolnshire, followed by Lincoln (94000), the latter reached by what would be a somewhat roundabout route.

Other populations in the area are Louth (17000), Mablethorpe (12000), Skegness (19000), Boston (35000), Spalding (36000) & Sleaford (18000). In theory, that ought to be enough to support a rail service, but you have also to consider the distances to / from places likely to attract enough regular traffic flows.

On a historical note, there used to be a line between Louth & Bardney, where you needed to reverse to get to Lincoln. That was so "well-used" that it closed to passengers in 1951

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Differences of opinion are fine but please don’t get angry and personal with each other.

Rather than us deleting things can we keep things constructive from here and bear in mind people that are looking at this thread and just want to learn rather than read arguments!

Thanks everyone.

Point taken.

Much of Lincolnshire is more-or-less flat, but much of it is also far from flat. Less than five miles from Barton, there is land that's over 100m above sea level.

I agree, and this is why I asserted in Post 14 that "Lincolnshire . . . is mainly flat. Not as flat as Cambridgeshire but definitely one of the least hilly counties in the U.K."

 

[bradleyd]

B

I am born and bred in Lincolnshire. We are talking about Market Rasen to Louth . That was the point made above and a direct line between the two to which my point is that has to cross the Wolds which are hilly . I fail to see what south the lincs fens have to do with this.

I was born and bought up in Lincolnshire as well. Within 50m of the junction of the 3 traditional parts of Lincolnshire.

I've always thought you could categorise Lincolnshire's geography into 3 rough areas... Holland + the east edge of kesteven+ the east Lindsey marshes - flat and flat. The rest of Kesteven and going up in to the bottom of Lindsey, gentle rolling landscape, the rest of Lindsey proper hills. The county splits roughly in thirds, so Def can't say majority flat

 

[class26]

I was born and bought up in Lincolnshire as well. Within 50m of the junction of the 3 traditional parts of Lincolnshire.

I've always thought you could categorise Lincolnshire's geography into 3 rough areas... Holland + the east edge of kesteven+ the east Lindsey marshes - flat and flat. The rest of Kesteven and going up in to the bottom of Lindsey, gentle rolling landscape, the rest of Lindsey proper hills. The county splits roughly in thirds, so Def can't say majority flat

Thanks, that was exactly the point i was trying to make earlier, possibly not that well but the area pertinent to this post Market Rasen to Louth goes right through the Wolds which as you know is rather hilly . This is of course why the original line from Grimsby to Firsby skirted right around the Wolds.

 

[adrock1976]

I have had a go at designing a Louth/Skegness taktplan, which can be found at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/suggested-skegness-louth-taktplan-timetable.231135/