How do you enforce pick up and set down only?

[permarquis]

Same at Horsforth for services which are set down only, people would board them because the screen says they're the train that's due a few minutes later.

To be fair to Bletchleyite, I was on a set-down LNER service a couple of months ago which stopped at Horsforth and the screens did very clearly say "DO NOT BOARD". Has this been changed recently?

Either way I do think it's a bit silly, particularly given the train was almost empty and could easily have absorbed all the people on the platform.

 

[Starmill]

I think you might be surprised, and it's rather more likely you'd be manhandled out by security, out of the door and told you were banned. Store security is often VERY heavy handed. Which is not unreasonable given that the "staff only" on the door is pretty obvious!

Staff in Lidl very often leave sliding doors to the kitchen / stock area open which obscures the sign that says it's a staff only area. I imagine this is against company policy, but then I imagine so is leaving pallets in the aisles at 1730.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, the 'stand back, fast train approaching' or equivalent message usually has to be configured correctly. In most places it isn't, because frankly it probably doesn't really matter.

Do we know if it is configured correctly at Stevenage? As LNER I think used to follow the same practice (but appears not to at present), I'd be surprised were it not.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair to Bletchleyite, I was on a set-down LNER service a couple of months ago which stopped at Horsforth and the screens did very clearly say "DO NOT BOARD". Has this been changed recently?

Either way I do think it's a bit silly, particularly given the train was almost empty and could easily have absorbed all the people on the platform.

I think that all Northern stations do now show it yes.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't understand why a big fuss is being made about issueing PFs, removing passengers etc.

The effect of 1 passenger boarding a train to Kings Cross is very minimal. Maybe the TM should have shown discretion at the customer making a mistake.
Most passengers travelling from Stevenage to Kings Cross would board that train, it says it is going to Kings Cross on the side of it.

 

[permarquis]

I think you might be surprised, and it's rather more likely you'd be manhandled out by security, out of the door and told you were banned. Store security is often VERY heavy handed, often even more so than bar security. Which is not unreasonable given that the "staff only" on the door is pretty obvious!

Your mileage may vary, but having worked at several supermarkets (including M&S) we'd certainly never manhandle a customer out of the door for the crime of getting lost! If they were actively handling the stock then sure, that's a different matter. The approach taken and training given was always to de-escalate and assume good intentions wherever possible.

 

[DanNCL]

It was polite. It said "please" and referred to the OP as a "customer".

Saying the word please doesn’t automatically make something polite.

Nothing wrong with it. The description was so the OP knew they'd seen him. This is done all the time (particularly at stations in respect of people smoking, sitting on the coping stones, cycling/skateboarding etc) and it works. I've even heard "can the passenger who owns the grey unattended suitcase on platform 1 please return to it", followed by them doing so. It's very effective indeed at making sure an announcement targetted at a specific individual knows it is and acts on it, and carries no intention to embarrass. The OP was embarrassed because they were caught out doing something wrong. It's quite reasonable that someone feels embarrassed at that, but that embarrassment is their own doing for doing the thing wrong in the first place.

Crikey, I've even had "if there is a Bletchleyite* on the station, can he please go to the customer information office on platform 4 for a message" at Preston. Next thing you'll tell me is that was a GDPR breach. Before mobiles you used to get it all the time.

* Real name, obvs.

So that the specific individual knows who it is, that’s fine. So that everyone else also knows who it is, that’s wrong.

As for the announcement you mention, that’s obviously not at all comparable. It would only be comparable if the announcement was you being named for having done something wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The effect of 1 passenger boarding a train to Kings Cross is very minimal. Maybe the TM should have shown discretion at the customer making a mistake.

The customer didn't make a mistake, they did it on purpose. The best way to do what they did is generally to ask nicely, as it'll often be allowed (though I doubt it would be on Avanti from Watford Jn, they are properly strict!)

 

[Edsmith]

Your mileage may vary, but having worked at several supermarkets (including M&S) we'd certainly never manhandle a customer out of the door for the crime of getting lost! If they were actively handling the stock then sure, that's a different matter. The approach taken and training given was always to de-escalate and assume good intentions wherever possible.

Exactly, physical contact is something to be avoided and any security staff manhandling a member of the public like that would soon be looking for another job and quite possibly prosecuted.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The customer didn't make a mistake, they did it on purpose.

I'm not convinced the staff member would have known that at the time though (at least based on what we have seen posted here).
Either way - falsely threatening penalty fares and fines when there is zero legal basis for them is a problem in the rail industry in general and so any example of it should be stamped out.

Even if a passenger did something "wrong", if a penalty fare is not a legal and defined consequence for that action, any staff member threatening to give one out needs to be disciplined. Its no better than other examples of staff making up their own rules etc.

 

[cactustwirly]

The customer didn't make a mistake, they did it on purpose. The best way to do what they did is generally to ask nicely, as it'll often be allowed (though I doubt it would be on Avanti from Watford Jn, they are properly strict!)

Oh no how ridiculous! To deliberately board a train to Kings Cross when they were holding a ticket to Kings Cross!

But still there is no need for the fuss, the effect of that 1 person boarding is very minimal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh no how ridiculous! To deliberately board a train to Kings Cross when they were holding a ticket to Kings Cross!

Lumo is a private, open access operator, to be compared with a charter. Do you think they'd let you on a charter for that trip without a charter ticket?

Do you reckon that if I bought a National Express ticket, the Shearings charter coach would let me take a spare seat?

The OP had no right to be on that train, knew he didn't and they were correct to ask him to leave it. Sometimes one can get an exception to such things by asking very nicely, but the OP didn't.

 

[cactustwirly]

Lumo is a private, open access operator, to be compared with a charter. Do you think they'd let you on a charter for that trip without a charter ticket?

Do you reckon that if I bought a National Express ticket, the Shearings charter coach would let me take a spare seat?

The OP had no right to be on that train, knew he didn't and they were correct to ask him to leave it. Sometimes one can get an exception to such things by asking very nicely, but the OP didn't.

Normally it's quite obvious what is and isn't a charter. That's a ridiculous argument to make. Charters don't normally accept National Rail tickets which Lumo do anyway

The OP was holding an any permitted ticket. So your coach argument is irrelevant.

 

[mmh]

I'm very surprised at that, because all the "modern" PIS systems should show "stand clear - passing train" if a train appears whose headcode isn't in the PIS as being a calling service, and in my observation they indeed do

Display signs can and often do show complete nonsense. Who hasn't heard a manual tannoy sign saying to ignore an automated announcement or sign for being wrong?

This afternoon the display at platform 3 at Warrington Bank Quay was displaying "Train not in use. Virgintrains.co.uk" while a Holyhead to Manchester Airport train was in the platform.

 

[185143]

The customer didn't make a mistake, they did it on purpose. The best way to do what they did is generally to ask nicely, as it'll often be allowed (though I doubt it would be on Avanti from Watford Jn, they are properly strict!)

But... "The customer is always right!"

 

[AM9]

Normally it's quite obvious what is and isn't a charter. That's a ridiculous argument to make. Charters don't normally accept National Rail tickets which Lumo do anyway

The OP was holding an any permitted ticket. So your coach argument is irrelevant.

But an "Any Permitted ticket" only allows travel on trains and routes that are permitted according to the public timetable. No ticket is valid on a train that doesn't stop at that station to pick up or set down there, - because that trains at that stop isn't shown as such in the timetable.

 

[CW2]

I was on the Glasgow - Harwich once when we stopped at Watford Junction. The guard clearly announced "This train is NOT for London Euston, please do NOT board this train if you are travelling to London Euston." A young couple - used to the normal set-down-only rules - decided to board anyway, and were somewhat baffled when we started going slowly along the North London Line heading east. The Guard gave them a stern talking to, but then let them alight at Stratford (which wasn't a booked stop). I hope they learned an important lesson that day.

 

[Watershed]

But an "Any Permitted ticket" only allows travel on trains and routes that are permitted according to the public timetable. No ticket is valid on a train that doesn't stop at that station to pick up or set down there, - because that trains at that stop isn't shown as such in the timetable.

There is no stipulation in the NRCoT that a train must be advertised in the timetable for you to be allowed to use a ticket on it.

Indeed, at times of disruption or around sporting fixtures or other events etc. it can be common for there to be 'ad hoc' unadvertised services. Certainly there can be no suggestion that the passengers on those trains are all travelling without a valid ticket!

Of course, if you board an unadvertised service then you risk being taken to somewhere you did not expect, and possibly travelling without a valid ticket as a result. But if you have a ticket that covers the journey you make and you make it on, you aren't breaking any laws or conditions.

 

[hexagon789]

The OP was holding an any permitted ticket.

Key word being "permitted" which this wasn't.

 

[Watershed]

Key word being "permitted" which this wasn't.

That's not at all how that works. Any Permitted simply indicates the absence of a route or TOC restriction - accordingly the following applies (from the NRCoT):

13.1 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1 any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
13.1.2 by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;
13.1.3 any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

Obviously it depends on exactly what ticket @TT-ONR-NRN held, but it is likely that use of the Lumo service would have fallen under 13.1.1, or failing that 13.1.2 or .3

Note that the wording is not "any direct train service which Calls at the station(s) shown on your Ticket", for example. The only relevance of the newly defined term "Call" is if you are splitting tickets.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can we please also remember that regardless of what you have seen displayed at Horsforth or Watford, that is not where I was. I also had headphones in. Next you’ll be telling me it serves me right for having my music too loud for announcements!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we please also remember that regardless of what you have seen displayed at Horsforth or Watford, that is not where I was.

What exactly was displayed at Stevenage when you boarded?

I also had headphones in. Next you’ll be telling me it serves me right for having my music too loud for announcements!

Yes, it is your fault if you suffer disadvantage from being ignorant of an important announcement because you were wearing headphones. Why would you think it was not?

 

[hexagon789]

That's not at all how that works. Any Permitted simply indicates the absence of a route or TOC restriction - accordingly the following applies (from the NRCoT):

I understood it meant they service was also "permitted" ie by virtue or not of calls/route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understood it meant they service was also "permitted" ie by virtue or not of calls/route.

It depends on the whole "Sorry, Sir, this train doesn't stop here" / "That's OK, I'm not getting on" silly conversation.

They need to clarify it properly in the NRCoT, alongside boarding a compulsory reservation service without a reservation. To me, on Penalty Fare TOCs, a base Penalty Fare would seem a reasonable charge, but not the fare component if the fare would otherwise be valid on that TOC. Charging people from York is just silly and would never stand up in Court. There are still a few non-PF TOCs but before long all will have adopted them.

It sits alongside the whole "tickets restricted by brand rather than actual TOC" stuff which similarly just needs clearly stating in the NRCoT and then becomes enforceable. I see no particular reason a TOC shouldn't have differentially priced premium trains nor why they should not enforce pick up/set down stops if they wish.

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps any set-down/pick-up only calls should either be made normal calls or simply removed. Much more straightforward arrangement and ends any ambiguity or conflict.

LUMO could probably remove Stevenage as a call anyway, I always thought it was a pretty pointless token gesture. It's not like Morpeth where there was only a very limited service previously.

It works for the vast majority of people. Only those "in the know" will be aware of anything different. Most people are reading RTT or understand the concept that much - if it is on the CIS screen as calling and on my app as calling good. Oh there's a big sign saying don't board and I don't see an XX:XX train to my destination? Guess I won't.

It also has a small (but useful) part to play in terms of reducing overcrowding on a short-formed mainline service to a big first hub stop (let's say Clapham Junction, Reading, Bromley South, East Croydon etc.) where there might be an equally fast service but with disproportionately more capacity just a few minutes later.

 

[dan4291]

I've seen the set down only Lumo trains at Stevenage on the platform info screens shown as 'Set down only' instead of a destination, with another message scrolling underneath (can't remember what it says), or not shown on the screens at all. The first way is better I think as it makes it clearer, rather than the PIS just ignoring the fact that a train has stopped there.

 

[DanNCL]

Yes, it is your fault if you suffer disadvantage from being ignorant of an important announcement because you were wearing headphones. Why would you think it was not?

How ridiculous. People often wear headphones whilst they’re out, and you can’t expect people to take them off when they’re on a station platform on the off chance that there might be an announcement saying that the train that pulls in going to the same place as the screen says isn’t actually the train they should board. And how would your argument work for those who are deaf? It wouldn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How ridiculous. People often wear headphones whilst they’re out, and you can’t expect people to take them off when they’re on a station platform on the off chance that there might be an announcement saying that the train that pulls in going to the same place as the screen says isn’t actually the train they should board.

Then they accept that that might result in them getting on the wrong train to their cost. It doesn't just apply to this case, but also e.g. those on Advances.

I wear headphones on stations and trains. If an announcement starts, I take one out so as to hear it.

I would also pay specific attention if the train that showed up was wildly different from that expected.

And how would your argument work for those who are deaf? It wouldn’t.

Exceptions must be made for those with disabilities but not for the wilfully ignorant.

 

[Watershed]

I understood it meant they service was also "permitted" ie by virtue or not of calls/route.

Unless you are relying on the 'direct trains rule', then the validity of a ticket does depend on the route a train takes. But the nature of calls are not relevant unless you are splitting.

 

[hexagon789]

They need to clarify it properly in the NRCoT, alongside boarding a compulsory reservation service without a reservation. To me, on Penalty Fare TOCs, a base Penalty Fare would seem a reasonable charge, but not the fare component if the fare would otherwise be valid on that TOC. Charging people from York is just silly and would never stand up in Court. There are still a few non-PF TOCs but before long all will have adopted them.

A proper clarification would certainly be good but I'm sure I've read in the past of travellers from Stevenage to London and Watford/Milton Keynes boarding East Coast/Virgin Trains services which were set-down only and being made to pay the single fare from York, Doncaster, Crewe etc etc.

I just presumed from these past tales that it was an entirely enforceable and indeed "set" thing if you get my gist.