My daughter is on the brink of depression due to fare evasion case, please help!!

[Zabina25]

Hi
My daughter, who is 19 used her brothers oyster who is 15 on the way to uni she is studying law. She was stopped by a inspector who confiscated the card and took her details we have received a letter from tfl. Thinking about hiring a solicitor as I have heard tfl are strict about these matters. She regrets this deeply and honestly did not understand the seriousness of her actions. Since the day of being stopped she has no eaten or slept for days. She is having problems with her breathing. She is studying law and if she gets a criminal record this will be over for her. She has never find anything like this before. Me and her dad did split up recently and I don’t know if that could have affected her State of mind. She is a good child and I’m so worried about her any help would be useful please

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi
My daughter, who is 19 used her brothers oyster who is 15 on the way to uni she is studying law. She was stopped by a inspector who confiscated the card and took her details we have received a letter from tfl. Thinking about hiring a solicitor as I have heard tfl are strict about these matters. She regrets this deeply and honestly did not understand the seriousness of her actions. Since the day of being stopped she has no eaten or slept for days. She is having problems with her breathing. She is studying law and if she gets a criminal record this will be over for her. She has never find anything like this before. Me and her dad did split up recently and I don’t know if that could have affected her State of mind. She is a good child and I’m so worried about her any help would be useful please

OK - sorry to read of the stress this is causing your daughter. As she is a student she should ASAP try to see if there is welfare advice on helping with the ticket evasion via her students union - eg access to legal help or reduced / free solicitors support. Contact them to ask / discuss urgently. Otherwise you do have the option of help from a solicitor if you think this will help with her severe stress about this.

I do not think that all is lost for her law studies as a result of this (hopefully others will be able to advise on the type of action TfL will be threatening to take) - maybe you can upload an anonymised copy of the letter she has been sent.

As an aside i do think it is a shame that day one of law courses do not spell out the consequences on your career or course of breaking laws, even minor ones - but given that students studying law are not rare on this forum seeking advice / help that does not seem to be the case....

 

[30907]

Sorry to hear this.

Yes, TfL normally prosecute for deliberate fare evasion like this. Any fine will be means-tested and relatively small, but TfL are entitled to claim their costs as well.

They seem normally to prosecute under their Byelaws for not having a valid ticket, at least to people who admit guilt. This is easy for them to prove and so it is an efficient way of deterring first offenders. The good news is that this is a "non-recordable" offence so she will NOT get a criminal record.
It will show up on an Enhanced DBS search, but this is not likely to end her career or her studies.
I hope this will ease her concerns.

As well as contacting Student Welfare and student union for support, she should inform the uni authority before the case reaches court.

Fortunately her brother is under 18 so he is unlikely to get into trouble.

 

[WesternLancer]

I also think the general advice given by @Hadders (to be found on many threads) would be good advice on how to approach this and what to say to TfL - even if they have a tendency to prosecute. I would think that approaching them in that way can do no harm.

I wonder if some help to your daughter of practical actions to take now may help reduce her stress and anxiety? IE actions suggested in thread.

eg:
- Contact Student Union for help / advice
- prepare apology letter to TfL and request to settle the matter without court action if they would be prepared to consider that
- find details of solicitors who might help if that is needed, get quote for the costs of this so you can weigh it up with your daughter
- establish how to inform Uni authority (in writing) of situation so this is covered (maybe speak informally to her tutor in the 1st instance)
- purchase whatever student rate TfL travel options are available, if any, as this shows good intent to never do this again (apols I am no expert on london tickets/Oyster)

Hope these thoughts help - and bear in mind the v helpful info from @30907 of course, which may help to re-assure your daughter.

- also, it may be wise to have a private conversation with your daughter to establish how many times she may have used her younger brothers card before being caught, in case this has a bearing on the seriousness of the situation and the approach TfL may take if they can establish any other cases of abuse. You may already have doen this of course.

Hope these thoughts are of some help.

 

[SuspectUsual]

In addition to the excellent advice already given, make sure your daughter gets an appointment with her GP ASAP. If she is literally not eating or sleeping (or perhaps more likely barely eating or sleeping), getting some medication or advice that helps her to function normally will be a big step forward

 

[Zabina25]

In addition to the excellent advice already given, make sure your daughter gets an appointment with her GP ASAP. If she is literally not eating or sleeping (or perhaps more likely barely eating or sleeping), getting some medication or advice that helps her to function normally will be a big step forward

Yes I have contacted the gp as she has completely shutdown. However they can reassure her. Thank you for your support

OK - sorry to read of the stress this is causing your daughter. As she is a student she should ASAP try to see if there is welfare advice on helping with the ticket evasion via her students union - eg access to legal help or reduced / free solicitors support. Contact them to ask / discuss urgently. Otherwise you do have the option of help from a solicitor if you think this will help with her severe stress about this.

I do not think that all is lost for her law studies as a result of this (hopefully others will be able to advise on the type of action TfL will be threatening to take) - maybe you can upload an anonymised copy of the letter she has been sent.

As an aside i do think it is a shame that day one of law courses do not spell out the consequences on your career or course of breaking laws, even minor ones - but given that students studying law are not rare on this forum seeking advice / help that does not seem to be the case....

I have contacted some solicitors who charge between £700-900
It is quite expensive however Iam willing to help pay this for her if it means she can settle out of court. Honestly i had no idea how serious this matter was. I wish children knew how serious it was in the first place it defiantly would stop them. The solicitor said her age could help her, as she is 19 and if your 18 or under they usually don’t prosecute. I don’t think she could handle a prosecution mentally that’s what I’m afraid off. Thank you for the advice thinking of getting a character reference from a teacher and the solicitor will appeal on her behalf

 

[Zabina25]

I also think the general advice given by @Hadders (to be found on many threads) would be good advice on how to approach this and what to say to TfL - even if they have a tendency to prosecute. I would think that approaching them in that way can do no harm.

I wonder if some help to your daughter of practical actions to take now may help reduce her stress and anxiety? IE actions suggested in thread.

eg:
- Contact Student Union for help / advice
- prepare apology letter to TfL and request to settle the matter without court action if they would be prepared to consider that
- find details of solicitors who might help if that is needed, get quote for the costs of this so you can weigh it up with your daughter
- establish how to inform Uni authority (in writing) of situation so this is covered (maybe speak informally to her tutor in the 1st instance)
- purchase whatever student rate TfL travel options are available, if any, as this shows good intent to never do this again (apols I am no expert on london tickets/Oyster)

Hope these thoughts help - and bear in mind the v helpful info from @30907 of course, which may help to re-assure your daughter.

- also, it may be wise to have a private conversation with your daughter to establish how many times she may have used her younger brothers card before being caught, in case this has a bearing on the seriousness of the situation and the approach TfL may take if they can establish any other cases of abuse. You may already have doen this of course.

Hope these thoughts are of some help.

She actually does have a student oyster of her own which is for 18-21 year olds so I’m shocked myself as to why she used her brothers. Are has said that because we split up and have moved in with my parents she was struggling financially however at the same time I know she would never do this again but how do we get tfl to believe that she wouldn’t.

 

[Zabina25]

Sorry to hear this.

Yes, TfL normally prosecute for deliberate fare evasion like this. Any fine will be means-tested and relatively small, but TfL are entitled to claim their costs as well.

They seem normally to prosecute under their Byelaws for not having a valid ticket, at least to people who admit guilt. This is easy for them to prove and so it is an efficient way of deterring first offenders. The good news is that this is a "non-recordable" offence so she will NOT get a criminal record.
It will show up on an Enhanced DBS search, but this is not likely to end her career or her studies.
I hope this will ease her concerns.

As well as contacting Student Welfare and student union for support, she should inform the uni authority before the case reaches court.

Fortunately her brother is under 18 so he is unlikely to get into trouble.

She is planning to apply for funding for graduate law programmes which carry out enhanced checks or deep vetting checks, I think that’s the name. So it will affect that, her studies are really important to her more than anything else tbh. I feel like this will send her into a downward spiral and cause her a damaging effect mentally.

 

[Zabina25]

This was the letter sent

 

[WesternLancer]

This was the letter sent

OK - Thanks for posting this, perhaps forum members with more familiarity with TfL letters of this sort can advise on best next course of action regarding responding to it.

Also - I think there have been some other recent cases on here ref TfL responses that may be of help if you can look through them (despite being different circs)
eg this one may be worth a look through albeit note the different issue - but some of the advice given by experienced forum members may be worth looking at.

Piccadilly Circus London - Freedom Pass Confiscated

Hi guys, Recently stumbled upon this forum and read a few threads about similar events to mine but just wondering would you be able to shed some light on this matter. I have recently received in the post a letter requesting for my events regarding the use of my mother's freedom pass and...

www.railforums.co.uk

I have contacted some solicitors who charge between £700-900
It is quite expensive however Iam willing to help pay this for her if it means she can settle out of court. Honestly i had no idea how serious this matter was. I wish children knew how serious it was in the first place it defiantly would stop them. The solicitor said her age could help her, as she is 19 and if your 18 or under they usually don’t prosecute. I don’t think she could handle a prosecution mentally that’s what I’m afraid off. Thank you for the advice thinking of getting a character reference from a teacher and the solicitor will appeal on her behalf

apols - this msg from you only just displayed to me - the only firm I have seen mentioned by name on this forum in the past has been this one

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

some people have mentioned getting legal help (inc with cases with TfL) but I can not recall any firms names being quoted by the people concerned. I have no personal knowledge or connection with Penman Sedgwick. It seems TfL do not tend to be predisposed to settle out of court so I suspect you should ask solicitors for their track record of success with TfL specifically, before paying c£900 - if only to help you make a judgment on best way forward, since I am not saying 'don't bother with a solicitor'.

It may be worth you waiting a couple of days or so to see if more forum members post advice too.

 

[30907]

That looks like a standard letter, and she ought to reply factually.
If there are mitigating circumstances, mention them - loss of future career opportunities is unlikely to get much sympathy, family breakup possibly - or if it was a genuine mistake (picked up the wrong card...).

Is it worth asking her preferred course what sort of checks are carried out, as this might calm the situation?

 

[Zabina25]

OK - Thanks for posting this, perhaps forum members with more familiarity with TfL letters of this sort can advise on best next course of action regarding responding to it.

Also - I think there have been some other recent cases on here ref TfL responses that may be of help if you can look through them (despite being different circs)
eg this one may be worth a look through albeit note the different issue - but some of the advice given by experienced forum members may be worth looking at.

Piccadilly Circus London - Freedom Pass Confiscated

Hi guys, Recently stumbled upon this forum and read a few threads about similar events to mine but just wondering would you be able to shed some light on this matter. I have recently received in the post a letter requesting for my events regarding the use of my mother's freedom pass and...

www.railforums.co.uk

apols - this msg from you only just displayed to me - the only firm I have seen mentioned by name on this forum in the past has been this one

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

some people have mentioned getting legal help (inc with cases with TfL) but I can not recall any firms names being quoted by the people concerned. I have no personal knowledge or connection with Penman Sedgwick. It seems TfL do not tend to be predisposed to settle out of court so I suspect you should ask solicitors for their track record of success with TfL specifically, before paying c£900 - if only to help you make a judgment on best way forward, since I am not saying 'don't bother with a solicitor'.

It may be worth you waiting a couple of days or so to see if more forum members post advice too.

Thank you for all your advice it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Zabina25]

That looks like a standard letter, and she ought to reply factually.
If there are mitigating circumstances, mention them - loss of future career opportunities is unlikely to get much sympathy, family breakup possibly - or if it was a genuine mistake (picked up the wrong card...).

Is it worth asking her preferred course what sort of checks are carried out, as this might calm the situation?

She is studying law and they do carry out enhanced checks for graduate funding and when you apply to firms in your final year they carry out enhanced checks. I can’t make her feel any better and I wish I could fix it because she is a really good kid straight A student and has never done anything wrong in her life. Wish she had known how serious this action was I know she would never have done it. I know this will have a detrimental affect on her life.

 

[island]

The DBS check level applicable to solicitors is Standard, not Enhanced.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think your daughter should also do two things:

1) Have a look at what the regulators for lawyers (the Solicitors’ Regulation Authority and the Bar Standards Board) have to say: for solicitors I think rule 3 at https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/s...ssessment-character-suitability-rules/#rule-3 is relevant
2) Then go and talk to someone - this may be her student union or possibly her university’s Law Society - to see what ‘likely to result’ and ‘may result’ mean in the context of a fare-dodging conviction. The thing is, neither of them are an absolute bar on moving into being a solicitor, so it’s worth knowing how serious a problem they might be.

After doing this, it may be that your daughter finds that she is in less trouble than she currently thinks.

For completeness, I haven’t checked the position for barristers, but I assume it to be similar to that for solicitors.

 

[Zabina25]

I think your daughter should also do two things:

1) Have a look at what the regulators for lawyers (the Solicitors’ Regulation Authority and the Bar Standards Board) have to say: for solicitors I think rule 3 at https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/s...ssessment-character-suitability-rules/#rule-3 is relevant
2) Then go and talk to someone - this may be her student union or possibly her university’s Law Society - to see what ‘likely to result’ and ‘may result’ mean in the context of a fare-dodging conviction. The thing is, neither of them are an absolute bar on moving into being a solicitor, so it’s worth knowing how serious a problem they might be.

After doing this, it may be that your daughter finds that she is in less trouble than she currently thinks.

For completeness, I haven’t checked the position for barristers, but I assume it to be similar to that for solicitors.

Thank you for your advice I will pass it on to her. Everyone has been so helpful really do appreciate it.

 

[43066]

It is quite expensive however Iam willing to help pay this for her if it means she can settle out of court. Honestly i had no idea how serious this matter was. I wish children knew how serious it was in the first place it defiantly would stop them. The solicitor said her age could help her, as she is 19 and if your 18 or under they usually don’t prosecute.

Sorry to say this but, if she’s a 19yo law student, then she certainly isn’t a child in the eyes of the law. If she’s done even a modicum of research she will already have known the seriousness of any dishonesty conviction for a potential future career as a solicitor, yet has apparently still taken the risk anyway. I say that as a qualified solicitor (no longer practicing) myself.

By far the best outcome will be that they don’t prosecute. The SRA tend to take a very dim view of anything involving dishonesty due to the fact that a solicitor is an “officer of the court” first and foremost.

It will show up on an Enhanced DBS search, but this is not likely to end her career or her studies.
I hope this will ease her concerns.

I don’t think the above is safe advice at all, certainly in relation to the career aspect. The SRA have form for striking qualified solicitors off the roll for fare evasion, even involving relatively paltry amounts, as per the below:

Solicitor banned for evading £650 in train fares

Adam Kemeny was caught by a ticket inspector after skipping fares for three months.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

Kemeny, who earned £38,000 a year, had noticed three months earlier he could leave stations without ‘tapping out’ his travel card, and eventually started skipping the whole daily return fare of almost £17. The outstanding fares were calculated by Govia at £650, and Kemeny reported himself to the Solicitors Regulation Authority after a settlement had been made. He was dismissed by his firm and has since found work for an outsourcing company checking documents for ongoing litigation.

The tribunal found Kemeny had acted dishonestly and he continued to commit misconduct over a period of time. He knew – or ought reasonably to have known – that his actions were in breach of the obligations to protect the public and the reputation of the legal profession. Despite Kemeny stating that he intended to end his misconduct, his actions ceased only when he was caught by the inspector.

The tribunal determined the only appropriate sanction was strike off. Kemeny was ordered to pay £3,000 in costs.

Of course the current case sounds less serious because it’s a one off rather than a pattern of conduct, and an immature law student is likely to be viewed more leniently than a qualified solicitor. However the above example demonstrates how any level of dishonesty is a treated as a very serious matter indeed for these purposes.

It’s also worth noting that any such conviction will also be a major hinderance when applying for jobs, well before admission to the roll is being considered, as it would need to be disclosed to law firms when applying for vacation schemes or training contracts.

For the record I hope it works out for the best and that a very serious lesson is learned here. I’m sure others on here can advise on how best to avoid the prosecution scenario based on what happens next.

 

[Trainman66]

Hi Zabina,

Although Northern, I recently received a similar letter where I had to reply with my version of events.
I first of all phoned the number that was on the letter and was honest and explained how sorry I was.
They advised me to email them explaining what happened in which I did and advised that matters only go to court if there is no response to the correspondence.
Whilst I can’t speak for TFL it may well be similar for Northern.

This approach worked for me and the matter is now resolved so it’s worth a go for your daughter.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hi Zabina,

Although Northern, I recently received a similar letter where I had to reply with my version of events.
I first of all phoned the number that was on the letter and was honest and explained how sorry I was.
They advised me to email them explaining what happened in which I did and advised that matters only go to court if there is no response to the correspondence.
Whilst I can’t speak for TFL it may well be similar for Northern.

This approach worked for me and the matter is now resolved so it’s worth a go for your daughter.

TfL is different than northern in that they are very unlikely to settle out of court. Although it has been known

 

[WesternLancer]

TfL is different than northern in that they are very unlikely to settle out of court. Although it has been known

We had a case on here a few months ago (apols I can not find link) involving TfL and docklands light railway and the person seeking help - who IIRC was also concerned they could not make a clear case as English not 1st language, engaged a solicitor and in the end received a warning letter. But every case is different and I don't think theirs involved knowingly using a discounted card that was issued to another person/relative. Solicitors firm not stated by them at the time. So I guess as you say it is not out of the question.

Sorry to say this but, if she’s a 19yo law student, then she certainly isn’t a child in the eyes of the law. If she’s done even a modicum of research she will already have known the seriousness of any dishonesty conviction for a potential future career as a solicitor, yet has apparently still taken the risk anyway. I say that as a qualified solicitor (no longer practicing) myself.

By far the best outcome will be that they don’t prosecute. The SRA tend to take a very dim view of anything involving dishonesty due to the fact that a solicitor is an “officer of the court” first and foremost.




I don’t think the above is safe advice at all, certainly in relation to the career aspect. The SRA have form for striking qualified solicitors off the roll for fare evasion, even involving relatively paltry amounts, as per the below:

Solicitor banned for evading £650 in train fares

Adam Kemeny was caught by a ticket inspector after skipping fares for three months.

www.lawgazette.co.uk

Of course the current case sounds less serious because it’s a one off rather than a pattern of conduct, and an immature law student is likely to be viewed more leniently than a qualified solicitor. However the above example demonstrates how any level of dishonesty is a treated as a very serious matter indeed for these purposes.

It’s also worth noting that any such conviction will also be a major hinderance when applying for jobs, well before admission to the roll is being considered, as it would need to be disclosed to law firms when applying for vacation schemes or training contracts.

For the record I hope it works out for the best and that a very serious lesson is learned here. I’m sure others on here can advise on how best to avoid the prosecution scenario based on what happens next.

These are certainly pertinent points, and I suspect the OP is fully aware of the seriousness of it.

Not to undermine that but I would think that the regulatory body (SRA) might be expected to take a different view about someone who was a practicing solicitor and committing a pre meditated pattern of fare evasion versus someone who had not yet entered the profession when committing the offence.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to all that the D&P section is for people to seek and provide advice.

If anyone feels that someone doesn't deserve/warrant advice, you are welcome to simply not reply to any such posts. If anyone has any concerns regarding any post, please do not reply to it and instead please use the report button.

Any responses to threads posted in this section should be constructive; any posts that are not providing advice may be subject to deletion in line with our policy regarding constructive advice in the D&P section.

Many thanks

 

[Zabina25]

We had a case on here a few months ago (apols I can not find link) involving TfL and docklands light railway and the person seeking help - who IIRC was also concerned they could not make a clear case as English not 1st language, engaged a solicitor and in the end received a warning letter. But every case is different and I don't think theirs involved knowingly using a discounted card that was issued to another person/relative. Solicitors firm not stated by them at the time. So I guess as you say it is not out of the question.


These are certainly pertinent points, and I suspect the OP is fully aware of the seriousness of it.

Not to undermine that but I would think that the regulatory body (SRA) might be expected to take a different view about someone who was a practicing solicitor and committing a pre meditated pattern of fare evasion versus someone who had not yet entered the profession when committing the offence.

Honestly speaking I know she did wrong and she knows she did
But I do know that she did not understand the seriousness of what she did and if she had known she would never have done it
I know she will never do it again
As she is suffering now

 

[WesternLancer]

Honestly speaking I know she did wrong and she knows she did
But I do know that she did not understand the seriousness of what she did and if she had known she would never have done it
I know she will never do it again
As she is suffering now

Yes, I think this is clear when reading your posts - and in any letter she writes to TfL showing this regret and remorse (as you are clearly showing here) may well help, and surely can not do any harm.

 

[30907]

....as a qualified solicitor (no longer practicing) myself
I don’t think the above is safe advice at all, certainly in relation to the career aspect. The SRA have form for striking qualified solicitors off the roll for fare evasion, even involving relatively paltry amounts, as per the below:

I defer to your inside knowledge here, though the report you quote doesn't mention which offence the solicitor was convicted of.

 

[87 027]

the report you quote doesn't mention which offence the solicitor was convicted of.

Further internet searching suggests he reached an out of court settlement and so wasn't convicted of any offence, but was nevertheless sacked when he confessed to his employer and subsequently struck off when the case was referred to the professional conduct body.

 

[Haywain]

Further internet searching

The details are in the quote in @43066's post!

 

[Zabina25]

Do you think I should write the letter myself or use a solicitor? Still not sure as to whether it makes a difference..

 

[WesternLancer]

Do you think I should write the letter myself or use a solicitor? Still not sure as to whether it makes a difference..

I am personally not so sure either - if you think the consequences ref your daughter's law degree / career etc are v serious (and no doubt read the links suggested eg by @Fawkes Cat to get a sense of that), I suspect the solicitors fees to help with this are modest compared to potential lost income in future if your daughter is denied her career choice in that field.

But it may be that at this stage you can draft a letter (with your daughter who should be doing this with your help and input) and post it here for comment - people often do that. If that does not work then you may still have the chance to go to a solicitor for help before eg it reaches court.

I suspect a solicitor would be helpful in terms of acting on behalf of your daughter in such a way that further incrimination was not risked by mistake, for example in something you/your daughter might write.

 

[Zabina25]

I am personally not so sure either - if you think the consequences ref your daughter's law degree / career etc are v serious (and no doubt read the links suggested eg by @Fawkes Cat to get a sense of that), I suspect the solicitors fees to help with this are modest compared to potential lost income in future if your daughter is denied her career choice in that field.

But it may be that at this stage you can draft a letter (with your daughter who should be doing this with your help and input) and post it here for comment - people often do that. If that does not work then you may still have the chance to go to a solicitor for help before eg it reaches court.

I suspect a solicitor would be helpful in terms of acting on behalf of your daughter in such a way that further incrimination was not risked by mistake, for example in something you/your daughter might write.

Yes I could write it myself but do they take it seriously if you write it?
Also will a solicitor say anything different to what we write? One has quoted £250 for writing a letter. Some have quoted £150 for consultation and £500 for writing a letter who knows which one I should use.
She has asked her teacher for a character reference just to show the type of person she is.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes I could write it myself but do they take it seriously if you write it?
Also will a solicitor say anything different to what we write? One has quoted £250 for writing a letter. Some have quoted £150 for consultation and £500 for writing a letter who knows which one I should use.
She has asked her teacher for a character reference just to show the type of person she is.

- There is some anecdotal evidence on here I would say that letters from solicitors are 'taken seriously' by the train companies - I guess since this sends the signal that you have specialist representation
- You could get a quote from the firm I mentioned up thread - they at least seem to have a track record of some success, but presumably other solicitors should be able to write competently - although knowledge of the fares law may or may not be an area of their expertise
- I am sure that if you write it yourself (or your daughter does) it is considered, - but that needs setting against the unfortunate fact that 100s of cases like this every week that they will catch of similar ticket evasion in London - you could as I say post a draft up. Given that fact (100s of cases) it is best to be brief and to the point - and end with a clear 'ask' (to settle the matter without the need for court action).
- I doubt character references count for that much, but also presumably do no harm.