Access from National Rail to the Underground

[danielcanning]

Is it just me or does transferring between NR and the tube take much longer than it used to? For example at London Bridge what used to be a relatively simple change now feels like a long slog?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

At Tottenham Hale it certainly takes longer than it did a few years ago.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it just me or does transferring between NR and the tube take much longer than it used to? For example at London Bridge what used to be a relatively simple change now feels like a long slog?

On the high level at London Bridge, you used to do the “long slog” along the island platforms because they were end fed by ramps. This was considered a safety hazard so they intentionally designed the routes in the new station so that there is no advantage to being at the front of the train - the main passenger flows are now via the middle of the platforms.

I don’t believe the low level platform distance to the tube stations has actually changed much.

 

[geoffk]

I suppose the way the Circle Line runs now doesn't help. Next month I have to get from Paddington to St. Pancras and, unless I want to change at Edgware Road, I'll have to use the H&C line platforms which means, as far as I remember, a longer walk.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The steady growth in passenger numbers over the past 25 years has given a general need for more circulating space, longer trains and platforms. Far greater attention has been given to things like emergency egress since the King's Cross fire. Many stations have more platforms and/or lines above or below ground. Access to lifts has had to be fitted in, one-way systems introduced to manage passenger flows, separation of facilities over mezzanine decks. The list goes on.

So the basic answer to the OP's question is "often, yes" - for good reasons.

There is also another factor for some of us, that we might walk more slowly as we get older.

 

[Enthusiast]

I don’t believe the low level platform distance to the tube stations has actually changed much.

No it hasn't and it's one hell of a lot more pleasant. The trip down the ramps was claustrophobic and they were always congested during the peaks. The area at the bottom of the ramps was terrible, especially as that was where the train indicators were, and there were people milling around in a fairly confined space looking for their platforms. The new layout is far more open and conducive and the large circulating area beneath the platforms is a different animal entirely. Since the NR platforms are where they always were and the LU platforms likewise, there must be no significant difference in walking distance.

 

[Jimini]

I suppose the way the Circle Line runs now doesn't help. Next month I have to get from Paddington to St. Pancras and, unless I want to change at Edgware Road, I'll have to use the H&C line platforms which means, as far as I remember, a longer walk.

It’s closer than the circle line. If you sit about halfway down your inbound train you should arrive at Paddington right by the bridge that’ll take you to the H&C platforms.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

No it hasn't and it's one hell of a lot more pleasant. The trip down the ramps was claustrophobic and they were always congested during the peaks. The area at the bottom of the ramps was terrible, especially as that was where the train indicators were, and there were people milling around in a fairly confined space looking for their platforms. The new layout is far more open and conducive and the large circulating area beneath the platforms is a different animal entirely. Since the NR platforms are where they always were and the LU platforms likewise, there must be no significant difference in walking distance.

Again it's all about a perceived difference at LBG with the stairs and escalators moved towards the middle at the SE/TL platforms the distance from the bottom of the stairs to the lovely tombs corridor towards the toilets and the tube is further.

 

[2192]

I suppose the way the Circle Line runs now doesn't help. Next month I have to get from Paddington to St. Pancras and, unless I want to change at Edgware Road, I'll have to use the H&C line platforms which means, as far as I remember, a longer walk.

It certainly was when trains from Greenford ran to Paddington and were a double ended single car.

 

[Taunton]

I knew London Bridge old and new, and it is certainly a lot longer to get to the Underground than it used to be.

Interchange designs also now have not only lost the sensible convenience factor that characterised the Victoria Line designers, but seem deliberately to go out of their way to be inconvenient. Take West Ham, where the ends of the District and the Jubilee island platforms are on top of one another. However to make the interchange you need to go on a lengthy perambulation, up from the Jubilee mid-platform, along to the main building, down under the District westbound, along, and then up again to its platform.

The new Crossrail/DLR interchange at Custom House could sensibly have been designed Victoria Line-style with two islands, cross-platform anywhere along the length, Crossrail in the middle and DLR on the outsides, but has instead been done retaining the separation, concentrating everyone onto two sets of escalators needed to go up and down again.

West Ham was, inevitably, and like most JLE stations, one that won design awards, which seems to be the principal driver nowadays. I know the Victoria Line stations are despised by the design profession for having plain paving slabs on the platforms instead of some elegant terrazzo, and such like, but for practicality give me that every time. To avoid any "it's for fire regulations" excuses, the two examples I have chosen are both open air, although I wonder nowadays, with the huge convoluted route march deep under Kings Cross just how much longer it would now take to get everyone out of the station.

 

[MontyP]

I knew London Bridge old and new, and it is certainly a lot longer to get to the Underground than it used to be.

Interchange designs also now have not only lost the sensible convenience factor that characterised the Victoria Line designers, but seem deliberately to go out of their way to be inconvenient. Take West Ham, where the ends of the District and the Jubilee island platforms are on top of one another. However to make the interchange you need to go on a lengthy perambulation, up from the Jubilee mid-platform, along to the main building, down under the District westbound, along, and then up again to its platform.

The new Crossrail/DLR interchange at Custom House could sensibly have been designed Victoria Line-style with two islands, cross-platform anywhere along the length, Crossrail in the middle and DLR on the outsides, but has instead been done retaining the separation, concentrating everyone onto two sets of escalators needed to go up and down again.

West Ham was, inevitably, and like most JLE stations, one that won design awards, which seems to be the principal driver nowadays. I know the Victoria Line stations are despised by the design profession for having plain paving slabs on the platforms instead of some elegant terrazzo, and such like, but for practicality give me that every time. To avoid any "it's for fire regulations" excuses, the two examples I have chosen are both open air, although I wonder nowadays, with the huge convoluted route march deep under Kings Cross just how much longer it would now take to get everyone out of the station.

The exit from the Victoria Line at Kings Cross is only convoluted if you follow the signs. The old route to the original ticket hall is still there and only takes a minute or two if you know the way! Takes at least 5 mins via the northern ticket hall.

 

[Mikey C]

No it hasn't and it's one hell of a lot more pleasant. The trip down the ramps was claustrophobic and they were always congested during the peaks. The area at the bottom of the ramps was terrible, especially as that was where the train indicators were, and there were people milling around in a fairly confined space looking for their platforms. The new layout is far more open and conducive and the large circulating area beneath the platforms is a different animal entirely. Since the NR platforms are where they always were and the LU platforms likewise, there must be no significant difference in walking distance.

It's definitely further to the through platforms than before, as previously you exited the tube station and went straight through the ticket gates and up the escalators, which led you to the passageway connecting to the ramps. Yes the area was a bit claustrophobic, but at least it was behind the ticket gates which cut down the numbers, and the vast majority of people were regulars going to and from the platforms.

Now you have to turn right (along a busy public walkway), then left along another long public walkway (with shops either side) to get to the ticket gates. Yes it's much pleasanter, and there's lots more capacity, but it has slowed the journey down.

 

[Bald Rick]

I knew London Bridge old and new, and it is certainly a lot longer to get to the Underground than it used to be.

again, this is perception rather than reality.

the position of the platforms at London Bridge has barely changed Between old and new. The position of tube platforms has not changed either. The access route between them has changed, but is still approximately same distance from most (not all) parts of the NR platforms. But now the route is less crowded, as there is much more space.

in practice, it is now often quicker from train to tube than it was pre rebuild, certainly at peak times. The exception is if you were at the front of the train arriving on the SE side, and were one of the first off.

and, of course, every train now stops at London Bridge, whereas with the old station a good few peak services to / from Charing Cross, and almost all the Thameslinks, didn’t. So there is much more opportunity to make use of the interchange, which reduces general journey time too.

 

[Snow1964]

Is it just me or does transferring between NR and the tube take much longer than it used to? For example at London Bridge what used to be a relatively simple change now feels like a long slog?

What has been introduced is lot of one way passenger flows, one way is usually the old direct route, the other an alternative along more convoluted routing. so sometimes takes few minutes extra in one direction.

In some cases if you ignore direction signs to Underground, subsequently come across another entrance with shorter route (I think it is done to split the usage rather than have everyone going one way), you tend to find these alternative routes at quiet times like Sunday mornings when extra entrance is closed and sign points you to next one

 

[Taunton]

the position of the platforms at London Bridge has barely changed Between old and new. The position of tube platforms has not changed either.

And that's what's so galling, that after all the expense it now takes so much longer ...

 

[Bald Rick]

And that's what's so galling, that after all the expense it now takes so much longer ...

as I said - it doesn’t!

 

[N/100]

again, this is perception rather than reality.

the position of the platforms at London Bridge has barely changed Between old and new. The position of tube platforms has not changed either. The access route between them has changed, but is still approximately same distance from most (not all) parts of the NR platforms. But now the route is less crowded, as there is much more space.

in practice, it is now often quicker from train to tube than it was pre rebuild, certainly at peak times. The exception is if you were at the front of the train arriving on the SE side, and were one of the first off.

and, of course, every train now stops at London Bridge, whereas with the old station a good few peak services to / from Charing Cross, and almost all the Thameslinks, didn’t. So there is much more opportunity to make use of the interchange, which reduces general journey time too.

If you're going from tube to train (through platforms) , and your train is due, you have a lot more distance to cover because the access points to the platforms are so much further east. It's not perception when you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you're going from tube to train (through platforms) , and your train is due, you have a lot more distance to cover because the access points to the platforms are so much further east. It's not perception when you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one.

‘So much further’ is less than 100 metres, all of which is through much less congested areas than Pre rebuild, and with more escalator assistance to get you to platform level. And when you get to platform level you are more likely to be able to board the train at peak times, as rather than being at the back along with all those who boarded at Charing X and Waterloo East, you are further up.

 

[Taunton]

as I said - it doesn’t!

I'm sorry, but this has all the scope for a pantomime interchange ...

 

[Mikey C]

If you're going from tube to train (through platforms) , and your train is due, you have a lot more distance to cover because the access points to the platforms are so much further east. It's not perception when you have to wait 30 minutes for the next one.

Exactly. The time critical interface will 99% of the time be from the tube station to the NR platforms, not the other way round.

‘So much further’ is less than 100 metres, all of which is through much less congested areas than Pre rebuild, and with more escalator assistance to get you to platform level. And when you get to platform level you are more likely to be able to board the train at peak times, as rather than being at the back along with all those who boarded at Charing X and Waterloo East, you are further up.

I would disagree that you're going through less congested areas, as previously you were using defined passageways to and from the through platforms, whereas now you're sharing the same concourse area as passengers ambling along, and indeed shoppers and the wider public.

 

[Horizon22]

And that's what's so galling, that after all the expense it now takes so much longer ...

So much longer? Probably categorised as around 1/2 minutes (if that) depending on whether you are positioned near an exit down the escalators off a Southeastern/Thameslink service. I think sometimes it may "feel" longer because there's so much space and you can see it all. Pyschological factor of the 'light at the end of the tunnel'.

 

[Taunton]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but :

From an SE side arrival one would walk forward, down the escalators, facing the way you are going, there was a gateline at the bottom, and directly across was the entrance to the Underground.

Now you have to walk back to the stairs, which are in the middle of a 12-car platform - so if in an off peak 4 or 6 car train, everyone has to walk back. Down the escalator, into the open lower area, turn round, through the gateline, then through the substantial shopping area, turn right along the passage, and you are just at the Underground entrance mentioned above.

 

[geoffk]

It’s closer than the circle line. If you sit about halfway down your inbound train you should arrive at Paddington right by the bridge that’ll take you to the H&C platforms.

OK thanks, that's helpful.

 

[brad465]

Accessing the Vicky line at Victoria has been longer since the large upgrade, although around the same for exiting the Underground: they have 3 down escalators and 3 up escalators together, where the up ones are almost right next to the platforms at the base and at the barriers at the top. On the other hand the down escalator leads to a long walk through a separate walkway, which I imagine is almost certainly to avoid overcrowding.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The worst place for increased interchange time (in the sense that it's really a longer distance, not just longer for those who don't know the way) must be St Pancras - especially between Underground's SS lines and the MML. Kings Cross too, if you're not someone who knows to ignore all the signs! (If you do ignore them, it's the same old quite quick interchange as far as toand from the tube's concerned, though getting onto the KX mainline platform can take longer since the rebuild...)

The longer interchange between the Victoria Line and mainline at Victoria is a real pain. And as only an occasional user, I still can't find my way round the new London Bridge as quickly as I could before, and that's even before having to face up to what's virtually a shopping mall before you can complete the interchange.

 

[pdeaves]

Is it just me or does transferring between NR and the tube take much longer than it used to?

Some examples already given by others. However, it depends where you are. Farringdon doesn't take very long, especially westbound Underground to southbound Thameslink!

 

[Mikey C]

When the Charing Cross Underground "complex" was created in the 1970s, it was quite mean to only provide one upwards escalator between the NR station and the underground concourse.

 

[Howardh]

A while ago, one of Geoff Marshalls videos explained that in some stations it was shorter to get from A to B if you didn't follow the signposted pathway. Think King's Cross is one such tube/NR interchange? Although that risks people getting lost I suppose - but it wouldn't surprise me if there are many such stations where there are shorter routes available but for reasons such as overcrowding they aren't publicly known?

 

[swt_passenger]

A while ago, one of Geoff Marshalls videos explained that in some stations it was shorter to get from A to B if you didn't follow the signposted pathway. Think King's Cross is one such tube/NR interchange? Although that risks people getting lost I suppose - but it wouldn't surprise me if there are many such stations where there are shorter routes available but for reasons such as overcrowding they aren't publicly known?

That’s correct and Kings Cross is the often used example. But presumably if absolutely everyone ignored the signage there the station would go back to being regularly closed in the peaks.

On a small scale there’s many examples where ignoring the simple keep left, keep right, will lead to a faster journey at times…

 

[miklcct]

The exit from the Victoria Line at Kings Cross is only convoluted if you follow the signs. The old route to the original ticket hall is still there and only takes a minute or two if you know the way! Takes at least 5 mins via the northern ticket hall.

Where can I find the station layout maps of all underground stations, like this?

The website says:

(The image used to be hosted on TfL’s site as part of their information about the station’s upgrade, but now it’s done it’s been taken down. Instead I took this from Leewood Projects, who worked on the western ticket hall.)

Hong Kong's MTR has the layout maps for all stations posted on its website, similarly for National Rail which are very handy when I'm heading to an unfamiliar station and decide I should be at the front, middle or back section of a long train.

And has anyone compiled a list of all walking times for every sensible interchange in the Underground / National Rail network in London that can be used for journey planning purpose?