Printed publicity - still necessary in the era of digital technology?

[hvordan]

Mod note: Posts 1-22 were originally in this thread: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/london-buses-discussion.146383/

I've moved the discussion into a separate thread because this isn't really a London-specific issue.

Good evening,

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but does anyone know if there is a spider map diagram for Peckham? I would've thought there would be as a lot of routes run through and around the area, however couldn't find one online.

TIA

 

[higthomas]

Good evening,

Not sure if this is the right place to ask but does anyone know if there is a spider map diagram for Peckham? I would've thought there would be as a lot of routes run through and around the area, however couldn't find one online.

TIA

TFL no longer produce spider diagrams for most places in London, and unfortunately that seems to include Peckham.
You may be able to find an old one, either through extensive online searches or asking TFL or some such.

(Minor plug for the excellent https://www.busmap.co.uk/ as the only up to date map you're going to find.)

 

[alex397]

Frankly shameful that you have to rely on enthusiasts to get a map of a capital city’s bus network.

I’ll also plug The Greater London Bus Map by Mike Harris. Available to buy from his website (for a PDF or paper copy), and I believe the London Transport Museum still sell them.

 

[Edsmith]

Frankly shameful that you have to rely on enthusiasts to get a map of a capital city’s bus network.

I’ll also plug The Greater London Bus Map by Mike Harris. Available to buy from his website (for a PDF or paper copy), and I believe the London Transport Museum still sell them.

I agree that it's shameful and this excellent site is far more informative than anything that TfL produce http://www.londonbusroutes.net/

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Frankly shameful that you have to rely on enthusiasts to get a map of a capital city’s bus network.

I’ll also plug The Greater London Bus Map by Mike Harris. Available to buy from his website (for a PDF or paper copy), and I believe the London Transport Museum still sell them.

London Omnibus Traction Society (LOTS) will have it on their stand at the Detling and Brooklands rallies tomorrow and Sunday 10 April.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Frankly shameful that you have to rely on enthusiasts to get a map of a capital city’s bus network.

I’ll also plug The Greater London Bus Map by Mike Harris. Available to buy from his website (for a PDF or paper copy), and I believe the London Transport Museum still sell them.

I agree that it's shameful and this excellent site is far more informative than anything that TfL produce http://www.londonbusroutes.net/

I must add my "vote" to the usefulness of Mike Harris's maps and to the londonbusroutes.net site; both invaluable.

And - as others have said - it's unbelievable that TfL itself doesn't produce maps any more. Well - maybe not unbelievable, given the unhelpfulness of TfL with regard to bus services; but really outrageous. I am despairing and embarrassed when friends and colleagues from abroad say how difficult it is to get around by bus in London in the absence of a bus map, and how it discourages them from wanting to spend tourist time here.

 

[Statto]

It's ridiculous that a major capital city doesn't publish it's own network bus maps anymore, that as good as there maps are, it's up to an independent publisher to publish them instead.

 

[hvordan]

TFL no longer produce spider diagrams for most places in London

So does that mean they no longer post them on the bus stops?? I found they were always incredibly useful while using the bus in London, much easier than fumbling around on Citymapper or Google Maps. London has an incredible bus system why are they not making it even easier to use!!

Thank you to all for the link to the Mike Harris bus map, I will take a look.

 

[deltic]

It's ridiculous that a major capital city doesn't publish it's own network bus maps anymore, that as good as there maps are, it's up to an independent publisher to publish them instead.

How many people ever used them and does the lack of them reduce bus travel? The cost of providing and distributing them is expensive. Spider maps are still provided for most of the main centres in London.

 

[johncrossley]

I suppose if maps and comprehensive timetable information are available from external sources then TfL can arguably justify saving public money by not duplicating that. I like maps and buy the Mike Harris map download each time it has come out since the end of TfL maps, but I doubt many people actually use them for travel planning. Most people I know seem to use Google or the TfL journey planner. I have the Mike Harris map on my phone and maybe use it once or twice a year.

 

[alex397]

How many people ever used them and does the lack of them reduce bus travel? The cost of providing and distributing them is expensive. Spider maps are still provided for most of the main centres in London.

If you don’t advertise your product, how can you encourage people to use it? Most cities I go to produce their own bus map - it saves so much time rather than trying to work out yourself where buses go. With leisure use becoming more important for bus travel, this needs to be encouraged.

Of course most people can look things up online, but there is not always data reception, and not everyone has a good data plan especially those on lower incomes.

Paper copies should ideally be available, but I do understand the cost involved in this. They should at least provide an updated map online.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If you don’t advertise your product, how can you encourage people to use it? Most cities I go to produce their own bus map - it saves so much time rather than trying to work out yourself where buses go. With leisure use becoming more important for bus travel, this needs to be encouraged.

Of course most people can look things up online, but there is not always data reception, and not everyone has a good data plan especially those on lower incomes.

Paper copies should ideally be available, but I do understand the cost involved in this. They should at least provide an updated map online.

A printed map serves a different purpose from looking up specific information about a particular journey online. Especially if you're a visitor, without a map in front of you where you can see the patterns of routes all in one go, and see where places are relative to one another and relative to different bus routes, you don't even know what question to ask on an online system!

The lack of maps is a serious impediment to leisure use - even for a Londoner like myself ... I don't know every inch of the city, let alone which areas are covered by which bus routes given all the changes.

 

[johncrossley]

The problem with British maps is that they are not produced each time routes change so you can't rely on them. In many British cities outside London route changes happen frequently so making maps up-to-date is impossible, but even with the regulated system in London route changes can happen at any time. In some other countries you get one timetable change per year (coinciding with the rail timetable change) and the map is redone at the same time. I stopped using printed maps years ago and swapped to pdfs as soon as they became more practical. Most European cities make online maps but I wouldn't think about getting a printed map and wouldn't be sure if they exist and where to look for one. Getting a printed map would be a lot of trouble for most people these days who are used to instant information. Popping in at a bus information office to pick up maps and timetables used to be a rite of passage for the enthusiast, but even they can't often be bothered in modern times. I suspect most young non-enthusiasts don't even realise bus maps are a thing.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The problem with British maps is that they are not produced each time routes change so you can't rely on them. In many British cities outside London route changes happen frequently so making maps up-to-date is impossible, but even with the regulated system in London route changes can happen at any time. In some other countries you get one timetable change per year (coinciding with the rail timetable change) and the map is redone at the same time. I stopped using printed maps years ago and swapped to pdfs as soon as they became more practical. Most European cities make online maps but I wouldn't think about getting a printed map and wouldn't be sure if they exist and where to look for one. Getting a printed map would be a lot of trouble for most people these days who are used to instant information. Popping in at a bus information office to pick up maps and timetables used to be a rite of passage for the enthusiast, but even they can't often be bothered in modern times. I suspect most young non-enthusiasts don't even realise bus maps are a thing.

I don't see that maps are especially "an enthusiasts' thing" - they're actually functional. They provide different information from a screen and fulfil a different function.

If I arrive on the train at a major European city which I don't know, or haven't been to for some time, the first thing I'd do is go to whatever sort of tourist information place there is on the station and pick up any useful information ... maybe a map of the centre of the city, and certainly a map of the public transport system - buses/trams, metro if it exists, and so on. How else can I orientate myself and plan where to visit in what order and how to get to places? Once, a few years back, when the place I was visiting had no bus maps available (Genoa - too hilly for me to get around easily without knowing the public transport system, ie having a printed map I could lay out in front of me to see how the system fitted with places I might want to go), I cut short my time there since I couldn't use my time efficiently.

Use of public transport should be made as easy as possible - and that has to include relevant maps.

(A related point. In this country too, there have been tourist attractions I've wanted to visit, but haven't done so because their literature and their website give access information exclusively for people driving there.)

 

[johncrossley]

I don't see that maps are especially "an enthusiasts' thing" - they're actually functional. They provide different information from a screen and fulfil a different function.

Maybe so, but are many young people actually aware that printed or even pdf bus maps exist, let alone seek them out? We both see the value of maps but I suspect we are both middle-aged or older. Hardly anyone under 30 would bother with a tourist or transport information office when abroad. They have ample information on their phone, including Google/Apple Maps and countless tourist orientated websites. When I was young I would make sure I arrived at a location when the office was open. Looking back that seems crazy now, but opening hours were important logistically.

 

[Mike99]

I'm a regular purchaser of Mike Harris maps. I ordered 2 of the regular maps; one for day to day use and one for best. I also bought the night bus map; the map is great, not that I need to use nighter, but it's in the same format as the regular so it's easy to look at. The regular map and index cover the night bus services as well. Mine arrived on Thursday so nicely ready for today's advertised date of use start.

 

[Non Multi]

If printed publicity is a waste of time and paper, why do so many organisations large and small still go to the effort of pushing ephemera through the letterbox if, "It's all online!"?

Is their management stupid? Are they crazy or just old fashioned? Or does letting people know that your service exists via ephemera raise awareness, and might even persuade the recipient to try it out / or come through the doors...

 

[johncrossley]

If printed publicity is a waste of time and paper, why do so many organisations large and small still go to the effort of pushing ephemera through the letterbox if, "It's all online!"?

Is their management stupid? Are they crazy or just old fashioned? Or does letting people know that your service exists via ephemera raise awareness, and might even persuade the recipient to try it out / or come through the doors...

The difference is that bus maps and printed timetables (when they existed) needed to be requested from an information office, or maybe picked up from the library. I could see your argument if you are advocating putting publicity through letterboxes, like the area books used to be in the 80s. It would be hard for TfL to publicly defend spending money on such a mailshot to millions of households in the current financial climate.

 

[alex397]

The difference is that bus maps and printed timetables (when they existed) needed to be requested from an information office, or maybe picked up from the library. I could see your argument if you are advocating putting publicity through letterboxes, like the area books used to be in the 80s. It would be hard for TfL to publicly defend spending money on such a mailshot to millions of households in the current financial climate.

In many cases, they certainly didn’t need to be requested. Many tourist information offices and bus stations had plenty on display, and indeed many of the well respected bus operators still do, as they recognise that paper publicity is still important.

Another point is, I still see plenty of leaflets for tourist sites, and a shopping map is still produced for my town. Why do they still find it necessary to print and distribute?

TfL don’t necessarily have to do a mailshoot, but they could at least produce an updated map online, and also keep the timetables and maps at bus stops up to date too.

 

[johncrossley]

In many cases, they certainly didn’t need to be requested. Many tourist information offices and bus stations had plenty on display, and indeed many of the well respected bus operators still do, as they recognise that paper publicity is still important.

They may have been on display, but you had to be minded to pick them up. They weren't really acting like an unsolicited mailshot. You had already made a decision to seek out the information.

 

[Deerfold]

In many cases, they certainly didn’t need to be requested. Many tourist information offices and bus stations had plenty on display, and indeed many of the well respected bus operators still do, as they recognise that paper publicity is still important.

Another point is, I still see plenty of leaflets for tourist sites, and a shopping map is still produced for my town. Why do they still find it necessary to print and distribute?

TfL don’t necessarily have to do a mailshoot, but they could at least produce an updated map online, and also keep the timetables and maps at bus stops up to date too.

Quite.

Although I like to have physical maps, I look them up online more often, even for places within my own county - the online ones are updated in West Yorkshire after every major service change, but only printed once or twice a year.

 

[alex397]

They may have been on display, but you had to be minded to pick them up. They weren't really acting like an unsolicited mailshot. You had already made a decision to seek out the information.

Of course some people did go into tourist information shops knowing they want a bus timetable (and certainly not just enthusiasts), but others who go in are tourists who don’t know much about the area - seeing easily accessible bus information raises awareness of the local services. Just like the leaflets for the local castle, museum or whatever.

 

[johncrossley]

Of course some people did go into tourist information shops knowing they want a bus timetable (and certainly not just enthusiasts), but others who go in are tourists who don’t know much about the area - seeing easily accessible bus information raises awareness of the local services. Just like the leaflets for the local castle, museum or whatever.

If we are talking about London (as we were before this was split into a different thread) then timetables aren't a lot of use, other than for low frequency routes. Timetables for the vast majority of London routes aren't much use except maybe for early and late buses, because the aim is to keep buses evenly spaced regardless of the timetable. London has been poor for publicity for at least 30 years and started to get really poor during the Livingstone days but usage grew dramatically regardless as buses became so frequent that you didn't need a timetable, even in the evening in most cases. There were a lot more lower frequency routes back in the 80s when you had the area books and every half hour wasn't uncommon evenings and Sundays, so you really needed the timetable then. Real time information is vastly more useful than a printed timetable, which is of course widely available as most people have smartphones.

The withdrawal of the map is regrettable but if you want a map you can still get one, albeit you have to pay for it. I'm sure I've paid for bus maps in other countries years ago, before you could download them for free from their website. I'd be surprised if many people other than enthusiasts have even noticed there is no longer a free London bus map.

 

[Citistar]

To return to the original point - the diagramatic spider maps as were displayed at stops in London were an invaluable resource to those unfamiliar with the network. Removing them from the information offering seems to be deliberately making accessing the network more difficult to those who are not regular users, something which you'd think would be the opposite of what TfL were trying to achieve.

On a related topic, i have been suggesting that various parties produce spider maps for local centres around the West of England for many years now without success. Lists of departures generated by computer with seemingly random intermediate stops do not make it easy for the unfamiliar passenger to work out which bus they need. If we're looking to generate new users to the network, then surely directing efforts at making information as relevant to them as possible would be a good investment? And in the grand scheme of things (particularly where local authority spending is concerned), this would be a tiny cost with a potentially huge benefit.

 

[johncrossley]

Have spider maps actually being withdrawn? I can see ones created on the website in recent months, for example Barnet High Street and Croydon town centre. The major flaw of spider maps is they don't show connecting services, and TfL have now, belated, come to the realisation that connections are not only desirable but essential if you want to get the benefits of having a network, even though they only came to that realisation by accident because it also saves money. Of course, they used to show an extract of the full bus map before spider maps were invented which showed connections, but if there is no longer a map then a spider map is the only option. I guess they still need a map of the immediate vicinity to show which buses stop where. That used to be shown on the bus stop itself but it was a bit cramped on there. So the spider map is an enhanced version of that.

 

[Redmike]

I can't imagine someone suggesting London could do without a Tube Map so why should buses be treated differently.

 

[Megafuss]

I can't imagine someone suggesting London could do without a Tube Map so why should buses be treated differently.

Exactly this. Plus my local railway station has to keep restocking the new style (Green) London and South East rail network map, so somebody must be using them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't imagine someone suggesting London could do without a Tube Map so why should buses be treated differently.

The problem with mapping London buses is that the network is way too complex for one to be useful to non-experts. That could of course be resolved, but the large "I want a direct bus from everywhere to everywhere" lobby would get cross.

 

[johncrossley]

In the old days, when all we had was maps and timetables, the best we could do is to look at the map and see what routes look the most direct. In a hugely complex network like London, what looks like the quickest route on a map may not actually be so. Journey planners/Google etc. sometimes get criticism for showing seemingly unrealistic solutions, but in the real world, lots of people use such tools quite successfully and never look at a timetable or map.

 

[MotCO]

There is also a very important reason why TfL should produce maps. Buses now only show ultimate destinations, with no clue as to the route they take. For example, in Orpington I can catch a 61 or R7 to take me to Chislehurst, but they take compeely different routes - indeed, in Orpington, they leave from bus stops on opposite sides of the road.

If people cannot see what route buses take, why should they ever use them? At least in a car + satnav you can get to wherever you want to go; with a bus, you don't have a hope.