EMR Class 360's

[Merle Haggard]

Am I the only one to be puzzled by the priorities?

The 360s fail in service, have tired upholstery and still 3+2 seating. Windows are misted. They provide a rough ride on the Up Slow Kettering - Wellingborough at least.

But after a year in service the priority is to... repaint them to replace the vinyls...

 

[fgwrich]

Am I the only one to be puzzled by the priorities?

The 360s fail in service, have tired upholstery and still 3+2 seating. Windows are misted. They provide a rough ride on the Up Slow Kettering - Wellingborough at least.

But after a year in service the priority is to... repaint them to replace the vinyls...

But whose to say the decision to repaint them now wasn't EMRs? It may well have been Angel Trains decision, given that they were due a body overhaul at some point and have been running around in the same First Great Eastern Blue paint since their introduction nearly 20 years ago.

 

[baz962]

Am I the only one to be puzzled by the priorities?

The 360s fail in service, have tired upholstery and still 3+2 seating. Windows are misted. They provide a rough ride on the Up Slow Kettering - Wellingborough at least.

But after a year in service the priority is to... repaint them to replace the vinyls...

Can't say I have noticed a rough ride in that location. And anyway , if you notice a rough ride over a relatively short section of the whole route . And the same section all the time, then it's more likely to be the track and not the unit.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Can't say I have noticed a rough ride in that location. And anyway , if you notice a rough ride over a relatively short section of the whole route . And the same section all the time, then it's more likely to be the track and not the unit.

Fair observations, but it's the only section I travel in 360s on, in my ambitious travels from Wellingborough to far flung places such as err Derby (3 trains each way). Never been S from Wellingborough on the new trains.

If you haven't noticed rough riding and I have, doesn't that suggest it's the unit not the track? (car 65555)

 

[baz962]

Fair observations, but it's the only section I travel in 360s on, in my ambitious travels from Wellingborough to far flung places such as err Derby (3 trains each way). Never been S from Wellingborough on the new trains.

If you haven't noticed rough riding and I have, doesn't that suggest it's the unit not the track? (car 65555)

Possibly one unit , but surely that would ride rough on more track . It would be rather odd to ride rough over around only six miles of an 80 mile route.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Possibly one unit , but surely that would ride rough on more track . It would be rather odd to ride rough over around only six miles of an 80 mile route.

It was on the Up Slow and I got off at Wellingborough - so I can't comment on the remainder of the route.

 

[supervc-10]

But whose to say the decision to repaint them now wasn't EMRs? It may well have been Angel Trains decision, given that they were due a body overhaul at some point and have been running around in the same First Great Eastern Blue paint since their introduction nearly 20 years ago.

Given that all the other Desiro units of a similar age are also requiring repainting and corrosion checks, I'd imagine it's more just part of the routine maintenence and not purely cosmetic.

 

[baz962]

It was on the Up Slow and I got off at Wellingborough - so I can't comment on the remainder of the route.

Ok . I haven't noticed a rough ride there or on the whole route and I have done the whole route , there and back on 3 days this week.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Am informed there is a serious issue with Class 360s in the Mill Hill Broadway area. They are currently banned from the slow lines I believe.

 

[LowLevel]

Am informed there is a serious issue with Class 360s in the Mill Hill Broadway area. They are currently banned from the slow lines I believe.

There's been a report today of a bar on class 180s with deflated suspension there pending gauging if that helps?

 

[Southern Dvr]

There's been a report today of a bar on class 180s with deflated suspension there pending gauging if that helps?

Yes my mistake. I just saw inferior Midland Main Line stock and thought it must be the 360s, forgot the inferior 180s were still about!

 

[43096]

360102 was released from Eastleigh yesterday after repaint/overhaul, with 360113 going in.

 

[fgwrich]

360102 was released from Eastleigh yesterday after repaint/overhaul, with 360113 going in.

Good stuff, so that's now around the half way point!

 

[43096]

Good stuff, so that's now around the half way point!

Yep. 8 units completed (101-104/107/109/114/121), two units in (113/116) and 11 still to go in (105/106/108/110-112/115/117-120).

 

[andystock22]

What has happened to the internal refurbishment program for the class 360s?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

What has happened to the internal refurbishment program for the class 360s?

Travelled in a couple yesterday and can't see anything wrong with the interior. Good units smooth ride and good acceleration.

 

[43066]

I can see where you are coming from but is that correct? - I assume Abellio made a bid to DfT (before current post covid arrangements) that was based on this solution for that route - so in a sense Abellio EMR would have decided to do that and DfT have not at any point told them to do anything else.
It may have been that DfT have subsequently told them to hold back on the sorting out/refurb of the stock - but I don't think that has actually been said by anyone - and I would expect MPs to ask that question in parliament if it had happened.

Happy to stand corrected if my point is incorrect.

In the narrow sense that they chose to take the franchise on, I suppose you could say it’s their decision. They haven’t had any control over the choice of trains, the introduction into service and the refurbishment programme, is certainly my understanding.

Travelled in a couple yesterday and can't see anything wrong with the interior. Good units smooth ride and good acceleration.

There’s a lot of unnecessary hot air spouted about them on here. They’re a little “used” feeling*, but the seats are pretty comfortable. I’m not sure they can really be said to offer a less pleasant environment than the meridians these days, which are feeling their age and in need of a proper refurb. Of course that’s a refurb they won’t be getting until they move on!

*EDIT: thinking about it, the 360 toilets are utterly grim and far worse than the meridians.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2022 ==

Am informed there is a serious issue with Class 360s in the Mill Hill Broadway area. They are currently banned from the slow lines I believe.

There's been a report today of a bar on class 180s with deflated suspension there pending gauging if that helps?

As of today 360s are restricted to 20mph through MHB P1, P2 blocked to them entirely due to gauging issues. They’ve been running through MHB on the slows at 90mph regularly since entering service, so the mind boggles!

 

[43102EMR]

Travelled in a couple yesterday and can't see anything wrong with the interior. Good units smooth ride and good acceleration.

Minus the seat moquette top-up from Greater Anglia, the interiors are over 20 years old and in dire need of an upgrade for the Corby services. They make Thameslink’s 700s more tolerable along the Southern MML!

 

[QSK19]

What has happened to the internal refurbishment program for the class 360s?

I don't think the contract has even been signed yet; so quite a while away, I would think. The theory is that they're getting 2+2 seating (the seat itself being the LEANs going in the 810s) but no first class accommodation. In any case, DfT is the king in terms of expenditure - they must authorise any spend on refurbishment; so if they suddenly decided that there were to be no internal refurbishment, then the 360s stay as they are. Let's hope, though, that they authorise a level of refurbishment that users of the 360s so desperately deserve - when I took my 5 year old son on a couple of them several months ago, even he commented how tatty the interior was.

In any case, combined with needing to fully refurbish the 170s, replace seat covers for the 222s and no doubt carry out some sort of refresh for the 158s, it's going to be a busy refurbishment schedule for EMR!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2022 ==

Travelled in a couple yesterday and can't see anything wrong with the interior. Good units smooth ride and good acceleration.

I'd beg to differ based on my travels in them, although I do acknowledge that there are other people who have different experiences.

Overall though, I do think that Desiros are solid units; so, hoping that the 360s get plenty of TLC both externally and internally (the process of which has started with works at Eastleigh) and then are maintained to that standard, they'll be a very good train.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I don't think the contract has even been signed yet; so quite a while away, I would think. The theory is that they're getting 2+2 seating (the seat itself being the LEANs going in the 810s) but no first class accommodation. In any case, DfT is the king in terms of expenditure - they must authorise any spend on refurbishment; so if they suddenly decided that there were to be no internal refurbishment, then the 360s stay as they are. Let's hope, though, that they authorise a level of refurbishment that users of the 360s so desperately deserve - when I took my 5 year old son on a couple of them several months ago, even he commented how tatty the interior was.

In any case, combined with needing to fully refurbish the 170s, replace seat covers for the 222s and no doubt carry out some sort of refresh for the 158s, it's going to be a busy refurbishment schedule for EMR!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2022 ==


I'd beg to differ based on my travels in them, although I do acknowledge that there are other people who have different experiences.

Overall though, I do think that Desiros are solid units; so, hoping that the 360s get plenty of TLC both externally and internally (the process of which has started with works at Eastleigh) and then are maintained to that standard, they'll be a very good train.

Are they even going to bother with the 222s seeing as they only have a short time until replaced?

 

[Scott1]

Are they even going to bother with the 222s seeing as they only have a short time until replaced?

It's actually been on-going for a while. Trouble with the flat cloth is as soon as someone spills a coffee on it your back to square one!

 

[QSK19]

Are they even going to bother with the 222s seeing as they only have a short time until replaced?

Today's Railways (April 2022 edition) confirmed that the 222s are getting replacement seat coverings.

 

[STINT47]

Today's Railways (April 2022 edition) confirmed that the 222s are getting replacement seat coverings.

They are due to receive some ne seat covers to replace those in the worst condition. It's going to be select seats in each train and not all sadly unless further expenditure has been authorised recently.

 

[Helvellyn]

If the refurbs are on hold it's a shame that whilst being repainted they at least couldn't adjust the existing seating to just be 2+2 using spacers, as on the SWR 455s.

 

[spotify95]

The 360s definitely aren't an upgrade over the 222s, especially as both stocks are tatty and need some TLC!

My thoughts exactly, a lot of the seats are getting very worn, the interiors are also starting to get quite grubby in places. At least the 222 is a 2+2 configuration, whereas the 360s are 3+2 (with no tables and no plug sockets).

 

[LowLevel]

Am informed there is a serious issue with Class 360s in the Mill Hill Broadway area. They are currently banned from the slow lines I believe.

Just as an update - you were right, there's a gauge defect at Mill Hill Broadway, up and down slow lines are blocked to all freight traffic, down slow line blocked to 360, up slow line has 360 speed restriction and both lines have 180 speed restrictions. Causing problems with overnight engineering work.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Clearly opinions about the acceptability of the 360s vary.

However, to be clear my observations have been about the seating comfort and ride in comparison with the trains they replaced. Regardless of whether one considers the 360s seating condition to be tired or not, it is not a matter of opinion that the 222's seats have head side restraints and armrests which the former do not. The present seats are narrow to the extent that if I sit pressed against the wall I overlap the adjoining seat by about 3". I am certainly not overweight and , for someone to remain within the seat width they would have to be very slim. The bottom cushions are thin and have a hard border. Whether this is acceptable or not, for a journey of an hour at inter-City fares, is of course a matter of opinion - it is sadly fortunate, in the trains I have used (only between Wellingborough & Kettering) the occupancy is of the order of 5 passengers per coach, so being squashed into the wall by other passengers doesn't happen. We will have to wait to see whether, when/if things return to 'normal' passenger numbers have increased since the change in trains & electrification.

My comments about poor ride of the 360s on the S/L Kettering to Wellingborough were not absolute but in comparison to (i) the very similar 350s elsewhere (including T.P.E.) and (ii) 222's in the same area; though, to be fair, there's now a T.S.R. on the section in question.

My remarks about the (so far, in my case total) lack of ticket checks on the 'Connect' service is relevant in that (i) on the Inter City trains it's almost always done and (ii) a good argument against D.O.O. introduction might be to able to demonstrate the revenue, otherwise lost, that Conductors obtain from the 'pay when challenged' passenger.

I imagined that the organisation that decided to repaint the exterior of the 360s might also be the same one that decided not to alter the interior. However, R.A.I.B. reports indicate that, in the complicated railway world of inter-connecting arrangements, quite often responsibility seems to be difficult for even that official body to pin down, so on reflection my thoughts, though logical, were naive.

 

[A0]

Clearly opinions about the acceptability of the 360s vary.

However, to be clear my observations have been about the seating comfort and ride in comparison with the trains they replaced. Regardless of whether one considers the 360s seating condition to be tired or not, it is not a matter of opinion that the 222's seats have head side restraints and armrests which the former do not. The present seats are narrow to the extent that if I sit pressed against the wall I overlap the adjoining seat by about 3". I am certainly not overweight and , for someone to remain within the seat width they would have to be very slim. The bottom cushions are thin and have a hard border. Whether this is acceptable or not, for a journey of an hour at inter-City fares, is of course a matter of opinion - it is sadly fortunate, in the trains I have used (only between Wellingborough & Kettering) the occupancy is of the order of 5 passengers per coach, so being squashed into the wall by other passengers doesn't happen. We will have to wait to see whether, when/if things return to 'normal' passenger numbers have increased since the change in trains & electrification.

My comments about poor ride of the 360s on the S/L Kettering to Wellingborough were not absolute but in comparison to (i) the very similar 350s elsewhere (including T.P.E.) and (ii) 222's in the same area; though, to be fair, there's now a T.S.R. on the section in question.

My remarks about the (so far, in my case total) lack of ticket checks on the 'Connect' service is relevant in that (i) on the Inter City trains it's almost always done and (ii) a good argument against D.O.O. introduction might be to able to demonstrate the revenue, otherwise lost, that Conductors obtain from the 'pay when challenged' passenger.

I imagined that the organisation that decided to repaint the exterior of the 360s might also be the same one that decided not to alter the interior. However, R.A.I.B. reports indicate that, in the complicated railway world of inter-connecting arrangements, quite often responsibility seems to be difficult for even that official body to pin down, so on reflection my thoughts, though logical, were naive.

So lets unpick this a little - firstly the "poor ride", well since it seems the poor ride on that section of track is also seen on other rolling stock, the finger of suspicion should probably be pointed at the track rather than the units.

Having removed that the remaining complaint seems to be about the seats, their type, quality etc (always a joyous topic here on Railforums) and the general condition of the units.

The 360s are very similar to the 350s which have a monopoly on the services from Northampton - which is a slightly longer journey to Euston than Wellingborough is to St Pancras. The seats on the 2+2 units are fine, the seats on the 3+2 are OK, but given the capacity needed pre Covid during the rush hour it made sense to go with that layout. On the occasions pre Covid when I travelled from Wellingborough to London in the rush hour, you could easily be condemned to having to stand on the journey into London and possibly back to Luton or Bedford on the return depending on the time train you got. The fact that a 4 car 360 has about 300 seats compared to about 240 on a 5 car Merdian which was usually heading onto Leicester and beyond so had the passengers for those, means the likelihood of getting a seat even on a 4 car 360 in the rush hour at Wellingborough ought to be much, much greater.

So that leaves the fare structure - if it bothers you *that* much, ticket split at Bedford which is easier now all trains stop at Bedford. It's easy to forget how much better the overall service Wellingborough gets now compared to 20 years ago.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So lets unpick this a little - firstly the "poor ride", well since it seems the poor ride on that section of track is also seen on other rolling stock, the finger of suspicion should probably be pointed at the track rather than the units.

Having removed that the remaining complaint seems to be about the seats, their type, quality etc (always a joyous topic here on Railforums) and the general condition of the units.

The 360s are very similar to the 350s which have a monopoly on the services from Northampton - which is a slightly longer journey to Euston than Wellingborough is to St Pancras. The seats on the 2+2 units are fine, the seats on the 3+2 are OK, but given the capacity needed pre Covid during the rush hour it made sense to go with that layout. On the occasions pre Covid when I travelled from Wellingborough to London in the rush hour, you could easily be condemned to having to stand on the journey into London and possibly back to Luton or Bedford on the return depending on the time train you got. The fact that a 4 car 360 has about 300 seats compared to about 240 on a 5 car Merdian which was usually heading onto Leicester and beyond so had the passengers for those, means the likelihood of getting a seat even on a 4 car 360 in the rush hour at Wellingborough ought to be much, much greater.

So that leaves the fare structure - if it bothers you *that* much, ticket split at Bedford which is easier now all trains stop at Bedford. It's easy to forget how much better the overall service Wellingborough gets now compared to 20 years ago.

The 3+2 seating was nothing to do with capacity on the current routing. The intention even pre pandemic was to replace with 2+2 seating.

Having experienced the identical 3+2 seating in the 450s on my local line (the Portsmouth Direct) it’s completely unsuitable as you are cramped if sat next to someone.

 

[A0]

The 3+2 seating was nothing to do with capacity on the current routing. The intention even pre pandemic was to replace with 2+2 seating.

Having experienced the identical 3+2 seating in the 450s on my local line (the Portsmouth Direct) it’s completely unsuitable as you are cramped if sat next to someone.

But you have a seat, rather than standing. So it's then your choice if you want to stand. But various passenger surveys have shown that people prefer to be seated rather than having to stand.