EMR Class 360's

[THC]

Whilst I don’t disagree with the premise that the East Midlands is getting a bad deal, it’s hard to say London is getting attention at the moment - London is being royally shafted by the current government.

This is part of the problem with this country as a whole, certain (urban) areas get identified for having a preferential political setup, and this leaves others out. It’s one of a number of reasons why I’m not a great fan of mayors and the like.

It has been politically expedient to placate the likes of Scotland, but in the long run this approach to government is storing up problems. I don’t expect it to change in my lifetime though.

Mayors are the only game in town currently for non-metro areas wishing to take on powers and associated funding from Westminster under the proposed "county deals" at the centre of the Government's English devolution framework, as set out in February's Levelling Up White Paper. Although it remains to be seen whether local politicians and councils are willing and able to cauterise their own ambitions in favour of concentrating powers in one higher-profile post.

THC

 

[43066]

Like this, you mean? https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/18082

How many of us would like to experience one of those on a Corby service today?!

A lot more interesting than the current stock!

I wasn't in uniform. I knew the train manager though. She was doing a very thorough job.

In which case, she either really liked you, or really didn’t like you.

You know true uniform anonymity has been achieved when you’re shooed out of the galley, because it’s “staff only”, when you’ve gone in with your diagram to check stops .

 

[bramling]

In which case, she either really liked you, or really didn’t like you.

You know true uniform anonymity has been achieved when you’re shooed out of the galley, because it’s “staff only”, when you’ve gone in with your diagram to check stops .

I get it in car parks on a regular basis, which can be amusing when one is in the right mood (but absolutely infuriating when one isn't).

 

[cjmillsnun]

And... ANOTHER 2 short formations today in regards to the 360s! 17:57 from Wellingborough to St Pancras was a 4 car set, and so too was the Corby service that left beforehand.

What is actually going on with EMRs connect service, did they not buy enough units for the service?! Forget 12 car, we still haven't got 8 car services...

They leased plenty of units. Unfortunately they need refurbishment and some works to make them more reliable.

 

[Mike395]

Currently on an uncomfortably busy 4 car service (using an Advance - I’d have stepped back a train otherwise). It’s remarkable that almost one year on, EMR still don’t have enough serviceable units for a full service.

Does seem to be improving though - from a quick glance at RTT this appears to be the only 4 car diagram today.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 04/04 5Q80 1054 Cricklewood - Eastleigh Works Caped
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04210/2022-04-04/detailed

STP 04/04 5Q81 1559 Eastleigh Works - Cricklewood Caped
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04211/2022-04-04/detailed


LD move Leicester - Cricklewood Caped


STP 07/04 47739
5Q80 1054 Cricklewood - Eastleigh Works 360116
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03926/2022-04-07/detailed#allox_id=0

5Q81 1559 Eastleigh Works - Cricklewood 360101
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03927/2022-04-07/detailed

STP 14/04 57306
5Q80 1054 Cricklewood - Eastleigh Works 360113
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03924/2022-04-14/detailed

5Q81 1559 Eastleigh Woks - Cricklewood 360102
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03925/2022-04-14/detailed

 

[Merle Haggard]

The reliability of the 360s remains poor and presumably beyond the ability of E.M.R. to improve bearing in mind how long the situation has applied.

Yesterday, two St Pancras Corby round trips and one Corby - St Pancras (5 trains) were cancelled for various 'traction' defects (MD, MO, M8). Most days last week there were similar failures, sometimes also including 'doors'.This seems far worse than the similar 350s on sister Abellio operator, W.M.R..

Travelling North of Wellingborough off-peak the passenger numbers on a train seem to be around 20 - 30. Are there any statistics yet about the change in passenger numbers on the newly-electrified section? I remember being criticised for questioning whether the 360s would generate any additional traffic and might even be compared unfavourably with 222s.

 

[QSK19]

The reliability of the 360s remains poor and presumably beyond the ability of E.M.R. to improve bearing in mind how long the situation has applied.

Exactly. I know some others feel different; but I maintain that EMR were hindered from the beginning given that GA neglected the 360s in their last year of operation before they transferred to EMR - I mean, what could EMR conceivably do with a box full of broken tools? Maybe not to have dithered for so long in terms of the refurbishment programme; but still, things have gone against EMR from the start.

Other mitigating factors could be Covid disrupting things and EMR never having had electric stock before (ie the TOC needs to get used to EMU traction); but, as you say, this has gone on for so long that the 360s are flawed. That combined with the fact that, IMO, they’ve probably got 10 years left in them means that, surely, thoughts must at some point turn to what they’ll be replaced with - maybe a 720 or 745 type unit, albeit to an IC level of comfort?

 

[westcoaster]

Think I've seen 3, 4 cars going around today. Does anyone know the MPC (miles per casualty) since being with EMR.
Is it improving, stagnent, or falling.

Was interesting to see this morning a full and standing 180 go through Wellingborough on the fast as the 8 car 360 turned up almost empty.

 

[bramling]

Exactly. I know some others feel different; but I maintain that EMR were hindered from the beginning given that GA neglected the 360s in their last year of operation before they transferred to EMR - I mean, what could EMR conceivably do with a box full of broken tools? Maybe not to have dithered for so long in terms of the refurbishment programme; but still, things have gone against EMR from the start.

One finds it hard to have too much sympathy for the idea that EMR inherited someone else's problems when one considers the owning group for both EMR and GA is Abellio!

 

[STINT47]

One finds it hard to have too much sympathy for the idea that EMR inherited someone else's problems when one considers the owning group for both EMR and GA is Abellio!

With other being Abellio it's hard to understand why one part of the group would create problems for the other. The phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face cones to mind.

Even of they were separate companies shy did the DFT not stop the run down with Greater Anglia? I can understand a company not wanting to spend money on trains about to leave but the government should insist that when trains leave they are handed over in good condition. If a company runs them down fines should follow to cover the cost of repairs and the problems caused. Hand trains over in the state you would've to receive them in.

It's a bizarre way to run the railway.

 

[WesternLancer]

With other being Abellio it's hard to understand why one part of the group would create problems for the other. The phrase cutting your nose off to spite your face cones to mind.

Even of they were separate companies shy did the DFT not stop the run down with Greater Anglia? I can understand a company not wanting to spend money on trains about to leave but the government should insist that when trains leave they are handed over in good condition. If a company runs them down fines should follow to cover the cost of repairs and the problems caused. Hand trains over in the state you would've to receive them in.

It's a bizarre way to run the railway.

Yep, bizarre - but same will be the rough state (passenger interior wise) whoever will get the 222s will receive them in when EMR hand them over - no reason not to renovate them now since it will be - or ought to be - clear that there is a future use for them - sao get on with the job in a timely fashion IMHO.

 

[QSK19]

One finds it hard to have too much sympathy for the idea that EMR inherited someone else's problems when one considers the owning group for both EMR and GA is Abellio!

To be honest, I don’t think GA itself would give a rats behind about EMR; nor would Abellio care that one part of its business handed run down trains to another part - in a way, it continues the habit of a lifetime by EMR (and its predecessors) receiving old, substandard trains in bad condition: examples being the 15x fleet when CT was broken up, the ex-LNER HSTs and the currently unserviceable corroded fifth carriage of 180110. God knows what’s actually going to replace the 360s - wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up being the 379s after they’ve been run into the ground come 15 years’ time.

So long as Abellio collect their management fee from the DfT and make a small profit, they’ll be sat down smiling without a care in the world for EMR.

Just my humble opinion as an EMR user who is utterly fed up with the state of the trains, short-formed services, cancelled services and the ongoing delays to the rolling stock refresh and refurbishment. EMR have not covered themselves in glory in managing issues; but I still maintain that they were given a box of broken tools from the off and are suffering from factors out of their control (eg the 196 introduction problems).

Yep, bizarre - but same will be the rough state (passenger interior wise) whoever will get the 222s will receive them in when EMR hand them over - no reason not to renovate them now since it will be - or ought to be - clear that there is a future use for them - sao get on with the job in a timely fashion IMHO.

I do hope that the 222s get a new home - they’re only half way through their serviceable lives and are a solid train. Part of me fears, though, that nobody will want them (for reasons such as incompatibility with 220/221s).

 

[Mikey C]

That combined with the fact that, IMO, they’ve probably got 10 years left in them means that, surely, thoughts must at some point turn to what they’ll be replaced with - maybe a 720 or 745 type unit, albeit to an IC level of comfort?

They're less than 20 years old! And with all the large number of similar 450s and 350s elsewhere operating to a high level of reliability, hardly an orphan fleet or a bad design. Replacement will be 20 years away easily

 

[QSK19]

They're less than 20 years old! And with all the large number of similar 450s and 350s elsewhere operating to a high level of reliability, hardly an orphan fleet or a bad design. Replacement will be 20 years away easily

My rationale behind suggesting replacement in 10 years’ time was that maybe the bad state the 360s are in may have terminally shortened their serviceable lives. And we’ve seen other EMU fleets that have been withdrawn early, such as the 365s (though I acknowledge that the circumstances were different).

In any case, I don’t doubt that Desiros are solid units - the 360s need some real TLC and maybe the comprehensive work done at Eastleigh is a major step towards that. I think that, if the promised internal refurbishment goes ahead and they are maintained well, they have the potential to be very good units to achieve the 20+ year timeframe you state.

 

[spotify95]

Think I've seen 3, 4 cars going around today. Does anyone know the MPC (miles per casualty) since being with EMR.
Is it improving, stagnent, or falling.

Was interesting to see this morning a full and standing 180 go through Wellingborough on the fast as the 8 car 360 turned up almost empty.

The 360 is empty because most people don't want to go to Corby, they want to go to Leicester and the North!

 

[MML]

Interesting that only a third of the fleet has been repainted so far.
At this rate, the units will up for retirement before they see a full mechanical and internal refurbishment

 

[Wolfie]

And, as I've pointed out almost as many times as you have pointed out Northampton gets 350/2s, the previous stock used has an impact too. If you go from 321s to 350/2 it's less of an issue than if you've been used to comfortable 222s with very large seats and tables for many years. It may not be a very long journey but it doesn't change the fact that the Corby route has always had Intercity, pleasant trains - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for shabby commuter trains with no amenities whatsoever. I'd be furious.

Not accurate (see Doctor Fegg's post) and bluntly the answer, other than the fares being high, is tough. It won't be the first or the last line where replacement stock is inferior.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as it's not full so the seating can be used as 2+1, I'd rather a 350/2 than a rattly, smelly DMU of any kind, not least one with all manner of design flaws like a Voyager derivative. So "inferior" varies

 

[Wolfie]

"The Corby route has always had rattly, smelly, claustrophobic DEMUs - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for spacious, modern, quiet EMUs"...

Yes, they need to refurbish them and change the seating to 2+2. But unless going 1st, I'd have an 8-car 350/1 over a short Meridian any day.

The Meridians are quite tatty now too, in any case.

True enough.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Before the lockdown service cuts there was, every morning, an ersatz costumer survey of 'Desiro' vs 22x at Northampton.

The 06.43 non stop to Euston was a Voyager. There were 2 similar (later 1) non-stop trains operated by 'Desiros' earlier and later.

The Voyager was double set, and arrived almost empty but departed full. On the other services, a single 350 sufficed even though they already had passengers from the North.

Strange, isn't it?

 

[43055]

Interesting that only a third of the fleet has been repainted so far.
At this rate, the units will up for retirement before they see a full mechanical and internal refurbishment

Wonder if some of the later repaints could get the interior done at the same time?

Class 360:
360101 - Full EMR Connect
360102 - Full EMR Connect (Vinyl) - At Eastleigh
360103 - Full EMR Connect
360104 - Full EMR Connect
360105 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360106 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360107 - Full EMR Connect
360108 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360109 - Full EMR Connect
360110 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360111 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360112 - Full EMR Connect (Vinyl)
360113 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360114 - Full EMR Connect
360115 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360116 - Blue with EMR Connect branding - At Eastleigh
360117 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360118 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360119 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360120 - Blue
360121 - Full EMR Connect

 

[westcoaster]

The 360 is empty because most people don't want to go to Corby, they want to go to Leicester and the North!

Was heading to London in the morning peak.

 

[Mikey C]

The 360s definitely aren't an upgrade over the 222s, especially as both stocks are tatty and need some TLC!

 

[Wivenswold]

Is there any evidence that GA "neglected" the 360s?

They were used intensively on the GEML for 17 years and once they'd settled in, reliability was never a problem. Maybe they were tatty and need of a full refurbishment and overhaul but that's perfectly normal for a 17 year old train. It was EMRs decision to take the units and put them into service before giving them the maintenance and refresh that was clearly needed.

Personally think EMR should have looked to train builders in their area and bought bespoke Aventras instead of going for the low-budget option.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is there any evidence that GA "neglected" the 360s?

They were used intensively on the GEML for 17 years and once they'd settled in, reliability was never a problem. Maybe they were tatty and need of a full refurbishment and overhaul but that's perfectly normal for a 17 year old train. It was EMRs decision to take the units and put them into service before giving them the maintenance and refresh that was clearly needed.

Personally think EMR should have looked to train builders in their area and bought bespoke Aventras instead of going for the low-budget option.

Reliability suddenly became a problem in their final year before moving across to EMR though, I'm not sure how else you explain that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally think EMR should have looked to train builders in their area and bought bespoke Aventras instead of going for the low-budget option.

Here on the WCML we'd rather we kept our Desiros. They're very, very good kit, almost indistinguishable from new having been given new seat covers and carpets. Yours just need tarting up a bit.

GA really didn't need to replace them, least of all with the 720s which have utterly awful interiors suitable only for a 12 year old.

 

[43066]

It was EMRs decision to take the units and put them into service before giving them the maintenance and refresh that was clearly needed.

None of this was EMR’s decision.

 

[WesternLancer]

None of this was EMR’s decision.

I can see where you are coming from but is that correct? - I assume Abellio made a bid to DfT (before current post covid arrangements) that was based on this solution for that route - so in a sense Abellio EMR would have decided to do that and DfT have not at any point told them to do anything else.
It may have been that DfT have subsequently told them to hold back on the sorting out/refurb of the stock - but I don't think that has actually been said by anyone - and I would expect MPs to ask that question in parliament if it had happened.

Happy to stand corrected if my point is incorrect.

 

[fgwrich]

Interesting that only a third of the fleet has been repainted so far.
At this rate, the units will up for retirement before they see a full mechanical and internal refurbishment

Hyperbole in this thread as usual. Given that Arlington seem to be getting through a unit in just over a week, and including todays move, we're now sitting just around the half way mark. If the refurbishment is carried out by Siemens in house, then it, like the SWR refurbishment, should be a pretty quick job.

Wonder if some of the later repaints could get the interior done at the same time?

Class 360:
360101 - Full EMR Connect
360102 - Full EMR Connect (Vinyl) - At Eastleigh
360103 - Full EMR Connect
360104 - Full EMR Connect
360105 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360106 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360107 - Full EMR Connect
360108 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360109 - Full EMR Connect
360110 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360111 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360112 - Full EMR Connect (Vinyl)
360113 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360114 - Full EMR Connect
360115 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360116 - Blue with EMR Connect branding - At Eastleigh
360117 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360118 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360119 - Blue with EMR Connect branding
360120 - Blue
360121 - Full EMR Connect

57306 + 360113 on 5Q80 Cricklewood South Sidings - Eastleigh. There is a return path in for today as well 5Q81 1559 Eastleigh Works Gbrf - Cricklewood South Sidings.