EMR Class 360's

[baz962]

St pancras.

 

[Merle Haggard]

St pancras.

Thanks, my experience has been only North of Wellingborough.
But St Pancras by the conductor seems odd when there's barriers there.

Edited - to correct auto-correct hadn't noticed

 

[A0]

If heavy maintenance is required then surely a weekly loco hauled drag to Northampton via Bletchley could be arranged or more regular ECS moves to Cauldwell rather than stabling untouched at Cricklewood.

Don't forget Kings Heath's main purpose is the service and maintenance of the LNW / WMT fleet - so whilst it *can* do heavy overhaul work on the 360s, it isn't its main purpose and presumably can only undertake a fixed number of "heavy" overhauls at a time.

 

[QSK19]

I know that this has probably covered before but why is the refurbishment is taking so long?

I’m guessing some possible reasons are:

1) Given that the 170s and 360s are getting the Aurora seating, EMR wants to make sure that the Auroras themselves are right before rolling out the seating across the non-IC fleet.

2) EMR has taken so, so long that spending on the refurbishment programme is now controlled by the DfT. I just feel deep down that, when it comes to EMR, the DfT has a penny-pinching attitude which seems to be to delay, delay, delay and then authorise something very light with minimal expenditure (eg replacement seat coverings and a deep clean). Had EMR got its act together sooner, it could have signed off the refurbishment contracts before Covid/emergency measures changed everything purse-strings wise.

3) EMR/Abellio simply doesn’t give a damn and feels invincible (as in, it can do what it wants and the DfT won’t punish them for it).

On balance, I think it’s mostly number 3 with a hint of numbers 1 and 2.

 

[STINT47]

I feel Abellio are happy as they collect they're management fee plus what they must feel is an adequate profit on top.

The DFT are happy as Abellio are not spending money and saving costs. Yes the service has gone downhill and is poor buy I've long felt that the MML and East Midlamds were of low importance to the government.

What doesn't help is that no one speaks up for the passengers on the MML and East Midlands. The North and West Midlands has PTEs and elected mayor's shouting out about services. Scotland and Wales have their own goverments whilst any issues in London and the South East always get attention.

In the East Midlands we sometimes get the local MPs or council speaking out but they're hardly banging on the DFT doors. Sadly a lot of our local politicians give the impression not being very interested in public transport.

 

[bramling]

I feel Abellio are happy as they collect they're management fee plus what they must feel is an adequate profit on top.

The DFT are happy as Abellio are not spending money and saving costs. Yes the service has gone downhill and is poor buy I've long felt that the MML and East Midlamds were of low importance to the government.

What doesn't help is that no one speaks up for the passengers on the MML and East Midlands. The North and West Midlands has PTEs and elected mayor's shouting out about services. Scotland and Wales have their own goverments whilst any issues in London and the South East always get attention.

In the East Midlands we sometimes get the local MPs or council speaking out but they're hardly banging on the DFT doors. Sadly a lot of our local politicians give the impression not being very interested in public transport.

Whilst I don’t disagree with the premise that the East Midlands is getting a bad deal, it’s hard to say London is getting attention at the moment - London is being royally shafted by the current government.

This is part of the problem with this country as a whole, certain (urban) areas get identified for having a preferential political setup, and this leaves others out. It’s one of a number of reasons why I’m not a great fan of mayors and the like.

It has been politically expedient to placate the likes of Scotland, but in the long run this approach to government is storing up problems. I don’t expect it to change in my lifetime though.

 

[Scott1]

I doubt it's changed since I last looked, but almost nowhere gets as little money for rail as the East Midlands. This is the reality of the situation, and nothing will change until people start complaining, on mass, to their MPs. I can't see that happening anytime soon, so there is no motivation for the DfT to do anything.

 

[STINT47]

Whilst I don’t disagree with the premise that the East Midlands is getting a bad deal, it’s hard to say London is getting attention at the moment - London is being royally shafted by the current government.

Very true. I was think more historicley when it came to London. I think TFL is currently being shafted because Londoners they didn't pick a blue mayor.

 

[bramling]

Very true. I was think more historicley when it came to London. I think TFL is currently being shafted because Londoners they didn't pick a blue mayor.

100%. Also for most of the constituencies voting Labour. I’d be mightily pissed off were I a London Conservative voter.

There could well be some validity to any connection made between EMR Connect and the general theme of the south-east being taken for granted by the current government (which I suspect will result in a significant Lib Dem resurgence unless the Conservatives get their act together and offer something which makes people want to vote for them).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel Abellio are happy as they collect they're management fee plus what they must feel is an adequate profit on top.

The DFT are happy as Abellio are not spending money and saving costs. Yes the service has gone downhill and is poor buy I've long felt that the MML and East Midlamds were of low importance to the government.

The MML certainly. The current HS2 plans will render it even less important, too, with the long distance stuff on HS2 and what is left just a poor man's Chiltern but with partial OHLE and only a big, important city at one end rather than both.

 

[edwin_m]

Very true. I was think more historicley when it came to London. I think TFL is currently being shafted because Londoners they didn't pick a blue mayor.

Probably more about the future - the Tories will want to deny Sadiq Khan some transport-related successes and point to the failings of TfL at the next Mayoral election. I suspect however that most Londoners will see through that - it certainly won't help them a general election but perhaps they've decided they aren't likely to win many London seats whatever they do.

However, the EMR Connect service reaches into areas of the East Midlands that are just as much in need of "levelling up" as those further north, and you'd think the local Tory MPs would be agitating about this.

 

[RailWonderer]

I think the govt sees the penny pinching as shrewd given only Wellingborough and Corby are mostly affected by the neglect of the 360 units and their lack of refurbishment. Luton and Bedford have the Thameslinks and Kettering still has its EMR ICs. I think EMR were just idiotic to kick the can down the road because they could have signed off a refurbishment deal on the DfT's dime and would have helped their image with passengers. I don't know what is going on at their head office I'd be curious, honestly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if they don't replace the seats, new carpets, seat covers and a deep clean would be an enhancement. It's not like Northampton doesn't get 350/2s, and it's a similar distance out (though the fares on the MML are a bit steep in comparison).

 

[QSK19]

Even if they don't replace the seats, new carpets, seat covers and a deep clean would be an enhancement. It's not like Northampton doesn't get 350/2s, and it's a similar distance out (though the fares on the MML are a bit steep in comparison).

Yep, that’s the thing - higher fares for a lower quality journey. Not surprised that people drive to stations on other lines.

Mind you, as another user has said earlier in this thread, so long as EMR get their management fee and make a tidy profit, they won’t care.

As each day goes by, I’m losing hope that there will even be a refurbishment, never mind a very light one.

 

[Merle Haggard]

However, the EMR Connect service reaches into areas of the East Midlands that are just as much in need of "levelling up" as those further north, and you'd think the local Tory MPs would be agitating about this.

Realistically that's unlikely.

Back in 1976 the County Council decided that to provide support for local buses was un-necessary and rural routes pretty much disappeared then. The view from the leaders, both council and Westminster, then was 'Why would I ever need to use public transport?', and I don't think much has changed. Northamptonshire, both East of the M.M.L. and in the South West, is very affluent - of course not everyone is wealthy but the latter's views aren't listened to.

A cynical view would be that E.M.R.'s interest in the Connect service is to abstract revenue from Thameslink, Wellingborough is seen as a pain. An example was in the recent storm - the Connect service was suspended and a Kettering - Corby shuttle was run. That left Wellingborough with very few trains indeed (about 4 in a day - the Meltons and a morning and evening Inter City) but presumably the penny numbers of passengers left stranded weren't a concern.

 

[WesternLancer]

Realistically that's unlikely.

Back in 1976 the County Council decided that to provide support for local buses was un-necessary and rural routes pretty much disappeared then. The view from the leaders, both council and Westminster, then was 'Why would I ever need to use public transport?', and I don't think much has changed. Northamptonshire, both East of the M.M.L. and in the South West, is very affluent - of course not everyone is wealthy but the latter's views aren't listened to.

A cynical view would be that E.M.R.'s interest in the Connect service is to abstract revenue from Thameslink, Wellingborough is seen as a pain. An example was in the recent storm - the Connect service was suspended and a Kettering - Corby shuttle was run. That left Wellingborough with very few trains indeed (about 4 in a day - the Meltons and a morning and evening Inter City) but presumably the penny numbers of passengers left stranded weren't a concern.

I think it would only be the commuter lobby to London that would be of the most significant concern to Tory MPs really (in part because that includes them potentially) - as these would be affluent voters doing quite well paid jobs to be living that far out and able to afford seasons. But I suspect they have much more choice now to work from home - so perhaps are not so likely to complain about it to their MP as would have been the case in the past.

 

[Mollman]

Given that I don't think ROG have found any takers yet, what (apart from money) are the barriers to hiring in the ex-Heathrow Connect 360s (reduced to 4-cars) to help cover for the unavailable EMR units?

 

[bramling]

Given that I don't think ROG have found any takers yet, what (apart from money) are the barriers to hiring in the ex-Heathrow Connect 360s (reduced to 4-cars) to help cover for the unavailable EMR units?

Do the 360/2s have TPWS fitted?

 

[43102EMR]

Given that I don't think ROG have found any takers yet, what (apart from money) are the barriers to hiring in the ex-Heathrow Connect 360s (reduced to 4-cars) to help cover for the unavailable EMR units?

To be fair, those 5 are in pretty bad shape themselves reliability and internally wise - bare in mind as well that they’ve not been used under their own power for almost two years.

 

[QSK19]

To be fair, those 5 are in pretty bad shape themselves reliability and internally wise - bare in mind as well that they’ve not been used under their own power for almost two years.

Perfectly suited to the Connect services then!

 

[STINT47]

Given that I don't think ROG have found any takers yet, what (apart from money) are the barriers to hiring in the ex-Heathrow Connect 360s (reduced to 4-cars) to help cover for the unavailable EMR units?

Given that EMRshould be running 12 car sets but currently run 8 I don't think the issue is the number of trains.

To get reliability EMR need their own maintenance facilities at Kettering or somewhere similar (Wellingborough yard perhaps?) as the current arrangements just aren't working.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Even if they don't replace the seats, new carpets, seat covers and a deep clean would be an enhancement. It's not like Northampton doesn't get 350/2s, and it's a similar distance out (though the fares on the MML are a bit steep in comparison).

And, as I've pointed out almost as many times as you have pointed out Northampton gets 350/2s, the previous stock used has an impact too. If you go from 321s to 350/2 it's less of an issue than if you've been used to comfortable 222s with very large seats and tables for many years. It may not be a very long journey but it doesn't change the fact that the Corby route has always had Intercity, pleasant trains - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for shabby commuter trains with no amenities whatsoever. I'd be furious.

 

[43066]

The one next to the signal box.

Oh yes that one. Embarrassed to admit I’d never noticed it (apologies to @MML ) !

At a pinch, it’s tricky to access the wash road from the South sidings where EMR units stable, involving a shunt via the depot exit road. The GTR and EMR parts of the depot both function largely as separate entities, (EMR go in and out on position lights, GTR have ground shunters) with the GTR side have a lot more going in and out and being cleaned/tanked.

None of that is completely insurmountable but its clearly not been regarded as enough of a priority to agree. I have no idea whether this is due to a lack of willingness on EMR’s part or (as seems more likely) GTR or network rail rejecting it as too convoluted and potentially disruptive to GTR’s operations.

It’s unfortunate that there wasn’t enough room to build a wash road at Kettering, hence the units are only washed when they visit Bedford for periodical maintenance where, you’ve guessed it, there’s a capacity squeeze due to GTR’s demands on the same location.

Definitely asked me for a ticket the other day.

When that happens, that’s when you know you’re being too “liberal” with the uniform policy.

 

[Merle Haggard]

the Corby route has always had Intercity, pleasant trains - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for shabby commuter trains with no amenities whatsoever. I'd be furious.

I'm old enough to remember when Northampton had the same experience (1966) though of course the term 'Inter City' wasn't used to describe comfortable mainline trains then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the Corby route has always had Intercity, pleasant trains - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for shabby commuter trains with no amenities whatsoever. I'd be furious.

"The Corby route has always had rattly, smelly, claustrophobic DEMUs - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for spacious, modern, quiet EMUs"...

Yes, they need to refurbish them and change the seating to 2+2. But unless going 1st, I'd have an 8-car 350/1 over a short Meridian any day.

The Meridians are quite tatty now too, in any case.

 

[bramling]

"The Corby route has always had rattly, smelly, claustrophobic DEMUs - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for spacious, modern, quiet EMUs"...

Yes, they need to refurbish them and change the seating to 2+2. But unless going 1st, I'd have an 8-car 350/1 over a short Meridian any day.

The Meridians are quite tatty now too, in any case.

Yes on paper the service is fine (the only thing I might change is removing the Luton call). The focus needs to be on making it work reliably as designed, and getting the units into a presentable state.

 

[Bikeman78]

"The Corby route has always had rattly, smelly, claustrophobic DEMUs - and these have suddenly been withdrawn for spacious, modern, quiet EMUs"...

Yes, they need to refurbish them and change the seating to 2+2. But unless going 1st, I'd have an 8-car 350/1 over a short Meridian any day.

The Meridians are quite tatty now too, in any case.

I'm inclined to agree. I've never had a problem with 360s. I'd happily do London to Cardiff on one. I think they should keep first class though. Allegedly it's being taken out when they get refurbished.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to agree. I've never had a problem with 360s. I'd happily do London to Cardiff on one. I think they should keep first class though. Allegedly it's being taken out when they get refurbished.

The 1st fitted is sham 1st like in the 350s. I'd be all for fitting proper 2+1 though.

 

[baz962]

Oh yes that one. Embarrassed to admit I’d never noticed it (apologies to @MML ) !

At a pinch, it’s tricky to access the wash road from the South sidings where EMR units stable, involving a shunt via the depot exit road. The GTR and EMR parts of the depot both function largely as separate entities, (EMR go in and out on position lights, GTR have ground shunters) with the GTR side have a lot more going in and out and being cleaned/tanked.

None of that is completely insurmountable but its clearly not been regarded as enough of a priority to agree. I have no idea whether this is due to a lack of willingness on EMR’s part or (as seems more likely) GTR or network rail rejecting it as too convoluted and potentially disruptive to GTR’s operations.

It’s unfortunate that there wasn’t enough room to build a wash road at Kettering, hence the units are only washed when they visit Bedford for periodical maintenance where, you’ve guessed it, there’s a capacity squeeze due to GTR’s demands on the same location.



When that happens, that’s when you know you’re being too “liberal” with the uniform policy.

I wasn't in uniform. I knew the train manager though. She was doing a very thorough job.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It may not be a very long journey but it doesn't change the fact that the Corby route has always had Intercity, pleasant trains

Like this, you mean? https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/18082