TfW Overcrowding

[Dai Corner]

A big part of the tfw overcrowding on the Marches is the huge amount of passengers who now travel to the South West changing at Newport now the xc route is no longer running to Bristol. Its noticeable how the trains empty out at Newport for this connection.

It's cheaper than going via Birmingham too I believe? TfW really need to sort out their yield management

 

[mmh]

I don't think there is any limit on advances. It used to be once a certain number sold at a set price the piece would go to the next price band and so on until it was just the off peak returns available. Now advances seem to be avaliable 6 weeks advance up to the day before on routes which sell them

I suspect advances have a miniscule effect on TFW's overcrowding given the random pairs of stations they're available for, that in many cases the saving isn't worth buying a restricted ticket for, and other TFW ticketing nonsense like day returns being available for longer journeys where only a period return is available for shorter journeys on exactly the same route.

It is, I'm afraid, just incompetence. Today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175. And I know saying that will as usual result in me being berated by TFW staff. I'm only noting the pattern I see.

 

[Anonymous10]

Tfw are planning extra capacity on most routes and more frequent services, the cambrian route will take longer to introduce as the 197s have next generation ECTS (ertms) signalling on board.

The 158s will be on that route longer than anywhere else due to the ectms but they will get more frequency eventually.
The wales and borders routes need improvements in signalling to increase frequency on most routes and all of this take time .

What tfw need is avanti to increase there frequency on the n Wales coast, plus stopping at more stations will take the pressure off tfws busy services.

heck even the Pembroke dock branch is being promised an increased service

 

[Starmill]

It is, I'm afraid, just incompetence. Today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175. And I know saying that will as usual result in me being berated by TFW staff. I'm only noting the pattern I see.

And rightly so if you're claiming that a three car 175 spent all day or even the majority of the day working nothing but Llandudno Junction - Llandudno. 175110 worked a Llandudno Junction to Llandudno followed by the 0621 Llandudno to Manchester Airport. 175107 did work several Llandudno shuttles this morning before attaching with the 0805 Holyhead to Cardiff Central service and this afternoon working the 1623 from Chester to Cardiff Central. 175103 arrived in Llandudno at 0958 having worked through from Manchester Airport and then it did number of shuttles before taking itself back off to Manchester Airport. 175106 worked the 1027 Chester to Llandudno. Are you seeing a pattern? These are all very busy services. This afternoon and evening the shuttles are in the hands of a two car 175 or the unit from the Conwy Valley.

There are no three car units being "wasted". They are working a five minute each way trip in marginal time before doing other work. Well and good to give criticism where it is based in fact but please don't make things up.

 

[Kite159]

The loco hauled sets should have been 4x standard class coaches, not the 2.5 SC coaches, the kitchen & a coach for FC to carry mostly fresh air. Similar set-up to the shorten HSTs for GWR.

First class can make a come back when they extend to 5 coaches.

Must be close to the same sort of standard class seating as a 3 coach 175.

 

[sd0733]

It's cheaper than going via Birmingham too I believe? TfW really need to sort out their yield management

Yes the via Hereford fare Is cheaper by quite a bit. There's loads of advance gwr/tfw routed tickets too.

 

[mmh]

And rightly so if you're claiming that a three car 175 spent all day or even the majority of the day working nothing but Llandudno Junction - Llandudno. 175110 worked a Llandudno Junction to Llandudno followed by the 0621 Llandudno to Manchester Airport. 175107 did work several Llandudno shuttles this morning before attaching with the 0805 Holyhead to Cardiff Central service and this afternoon working the 1623 from Chester to Cardiff Central. 175103 arrived in Llandudno at 0958 having worked through from Manchester Airport and then it did number of shuttles before taking itself back off to Manchester Airport. 175106 worked the 1027 Chester to Llandudno. Are you seeing a pattern? These are all very busy services. This afternoon and evening the shuttles are in the hands of a two car 175 or the unit from the Conwy Valley.

There are no three car units being "wasted". They are working a five minute each way trip in marginal time before doing other work. Well and good to give criticism where it is based in fact but please don't make things up.

This is not true. I live overlooking the line and have been well aware of how it has been run for the past couple of years. It is very much a shuttle service. The "five minute marginal service" you're thinking of has not been something in timetables for 2 years. Whatever hotchpotch you're referring to today will be exactly that - a single day hotchpotch. Do you witness and experience the line every day? I imagine not.

 

[Starmill]

This is not true. I live overlooking the line and have been well aware of how it has been run for the past couple of years. It is very much a shuttle service. The "five minute marginal service" you're thinking of has not been something in timetables for 2 years. Whatever hotchpotch you're referring to today will be exactly that - a single day hotchpotch. Do you witness and experience the line every day? I imagine not.

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken.

 

[mmh]

The loco hauled sets should have been 4x standard class coaches, not the 2.5 SC coaches, the kitchen & a coach for FC to carry mostly fresh air. Similar set-up to the shorten HSTs for GWR.

First class can make a come back when they extend to 5 coaches.

Must be close to the same sort of standard class seating as a 3 coach 175.

To be fair to them, they do seem to be trying to sort that problem out with, umm, completely random stopping patterns for Mk4s. Don't get me wrong, I loved my non-stop last week but I'm not sure everyone else did.

Someone will be along in a moment to explain why non-stopping westbound trains possibly exist along the North Wales Coast late at night. It might even not be codswallop.

I'm afraid you're very much mistaken.

I'm afraid I find that quite rude. What is your local station? Where do you routinely travel between? Which railway line do you overlook?

That the odd couple of trains a day might split a day at Llandudno Junction (and they are odd, and annoying) does not mean I'm incorrect. We have a shuttle service from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction. Why would you deny that?

 

[Starmill]

I'm afraid I find that quite rude. What is your local station? Where do you routinely travel between? Which railway line do you overlook?

That the odd couple of trains a day might split a day at Llandudno Junction (and they are odd, and annoying) does not mean I'm incorrect. We have a shuttle service from Llandudno to Llandudno Junction. Why would you deny that?

I've set out the correct information about what is happening today in #124 above. Your assertion was that there's incompetence at play because "today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175", but that's wrong on the basis that I explained in that post. To summarise, the unit changes i.e. it is not the same one all day.

 

[Anonymous10]

I've set out the correct information about what is happening today in #124 above. Your assertion was that there's incompetence at play because "today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175", but that's wrong on the basis that I explained in that post. To summarise, the unit changes i.e. it is not the same one all day.

its operating similar to how the Pembroke dock branch sometimes does its whatever set is spare with enough time to make the trip

 

[mmh]

Unfortunately its a franchise thats suffered from lack of investment for decades, main issues currently is a lack of units as discussed, plus youve got the 175s which due to lack of gangways are hard to operate on a lot of routes in multiple because of the lack of gangways. Stations with short platforms of which there are many, means locking out the rear unit for those stations and faffing around rounding passengers up from the rear unit for the next station etc before locking it out - or the whole journey (which defeats the object).

Hopefully with the 197s and their gangways, it should be possible to run more longer trains with their selective door system, and passengers can move through the gangway into the correct coach. Unfortunately these things take time but hopefully after years of neglect, things should improve.

Selective door opening was proved to me to not be the huge problem people claim a few days ago. A 5 car train (2x158 and a 153). Ram packed, guard couldn't get through to do single door at Conwy. So let themselves out, and opened every door that was platformed from the platform. Problem solved?

 

[wobman]

Selective door opening was proved to me to not be the huge problem people claim a few days ago. A 5 car train (2x158 and a 153). Ram packed, guard couldn't get through to do single door at Conwy. So let themselves out, and opened every door that was platformed from the platform. Problem solved?

It's not wise posting things like this on a forum, it can encourage people to copy these very unsafe actions

 

[wobman]

Tfw are planning longer formations of the Mk4s once the fleet all get SDO fitted

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've set out the correct information about what is happening today in #124 above. Your assertion was that there's incompetence at play because "today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175", but that's wrong on the basis that I explained in that post. To summarise, the unit changes i.e. it is not the same one all day.

I wonder if post 197 it would be possible to tidy this up by allocating a pair of 2 car 197s to a combination of this and the Conwy Valley, which might also allow the latter a more useful timetable?

It is an utter mess, though. The basic principle used to be like Windermere - a Manchester would come in, do a shuttle then back to Manchester, nice and simple Takt.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder if post 197 it would be possible to tidy this up by allocating a pair of 2 car 197s to a combination of this and the Conwy Valley, which might also allow the latter a more useful timetable?

It is an utter mess, though. The basic principle used to be like Windermere - a Manchester would come in, do a shuttle then back to Manchester, nice and simple Takt.

Indeed - it seems likely that something will need to be changed around but I don't know if through services between Liverpool and Llandudno are still the intention. It would seem likely that they are so it will probably continue being pretty uneven.

 

[Broken70]

The situation on the Chester - Crewe was quite poor today with 153333 running solo. The 1223 left Crewe extremely full with standees down the full train and the 1254 ex Chester I believe left at least 1 passenger. 153909 was sat in the sidings along with a 175.

 

[Sheridan]

To be fair to them, they do seem to be trying to sort that problem out with, umm, completely random stopping patterns for Mk4s. Don't get me wrong, I loved my non-stop last week but I'm not sure everyone else did.

Someone will be along in a moment to explain why non-stopping westbound trains possibly exist along the North Wales Coast late at night. It might even not be codswallop.

Which service(s) do you have in mind here?

 

[mmh]

Which service(s) do you have in mind here?

The evening Cardiff - Holyhead Mk4. Not scheduled to stop, I believe, between Chester and Rhyl. Last week it didn't stop at Colwyn Bay, fast to Llandudno Junction.

Perhaps TFW are planning more non-stop services, another great one to see was a 197 eastbound fast through Rhyl with no warning on the PIS. There were a couple of youth idiots sat on the platform edge. Thankfully got up in time. Not condoning that of course.

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect advances have a miniscule effect on TFW's overcrowding given the random pairs of stations they're available for, that in many cases the saving isn't worth buying a restricted ticket for, and other TFW ticketing nonsense like day returns being available for longer journeys where only a period return is available for shorter journeys on exactly the same route.

It is, I'm afraid, just incompetence. Today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175. And I know saying that will as usual result in me being berated by TFW staff. I'm only noting the pattern I see.

And rightly so if you're claiming that a three car 175 spent all day or even the majority of the day working nothing but Llandudno Junction - Llandudno. 175110 worked a Llandudno Junction to Llandudno followed by the 0621 Llandudno to Manchester Airport. 175107 did work several Llandudno shuttles this morning before attaching with the 0805 Holyhead to Cardiff Central service and this afternoon working the 1623 from Chester to Cardiff Central. 175103 arrived in Llandudno at 0958 having worked through from Manchester Airport and then it did number of shuttles before taking itself back off to Manchester Airport. 175106 worked the 1027 Chester to Llandudno. Are you seeing a pattern? These are all very busy services. This afternoon and evening the shuttles are in the hands of a two car 175 or the unit from the Conwy Valley.

There are no three car units being "wasted". They are working a five minute each way trip in marginal time before doing other work. Well and good to give criticism where it is based in fact but please don't make things up.

At the moment, there is a shuttle service for part of the day. The unit that arrives at Llandudno at 0958 from Manchester shuttles back and forth to the Junction until it forms the 1440 from Llandudno back to Manchester Airport. However, it is booked to be worked by a 2 car 175, and indeed it was one of those on 4 days out of 5 last week.

Selective door opening was proved to me to not be the huge problem people claim a few days ago. A 5 car train (2x158 and a 153). Ram packed, guard couldn't get through to do single door at Conwy. So let themselves out, and opened every door that was platformed from the platform. Problem solved?

There is a very slow workaround that can be used for 158s. It doesn't work with other units in the fleet and it takes too long to be done on a regular basis.

 

[Starmill]

At the moment, there is a shuttle service for part of the day. The unit that arrives at Llandudno at 0958 from Manchester shuttles back and forth to the Junction until it forms the 1440 from Llandudno back to Manchester Airport. However, it is booked to be worked by a 2 car 175, and indeed it was one of those on 4 days out of 5 last week.

Indeed, which is essentially what I said isn't it. Surely a sensible service to overform on a day such as today too. OK, it may not be perfect - from a capacity perspective, it would be better to just use a two car 150 on the branch and have no through workings at all. But who is going to unpick a whole load of diagrams for the sake of one day? And of course, withdrawing all of the through services would attract lots of negative stakeholder attention.

 

[Jez]

The 1317 from Port Talbot to Manchester was very overcrowded today as a 2 carriage 150.Full and quite a lot standing. Not a lot of space for the massive amounts of luggage on board. It was an unrefurbished 150 too, not great on such a long journey. I was glad to get off it at Bridgend to be honest, about 15 minutes on it was more than enough and as it was late I made a tight connection with a few minutes to spare onto the Vale of Glamorgan train which also a 150 and to to my surprise was very quiet. I expected it to be busy but perhaps 1342 is a bit late for most people for a leisure trip to Barry/Barry Island or perhaps most of the Barry Island day trippers come from Cardiff direction.

I suspect advances have a miniscule effect on TFW's overcrowding given the random pairs of stations they're available for, that in many cases the saving isn't worth buying a restricted ticket for, and other TFW ticketing nonsense like day returns being available for longer journeys where only a period return is available for shorter journeys on exactly the same route.

It is, I'm afraid, just incompetence. Today's Llandudno shuttle is of course a 3 car 175. And I know saying that will as usual result in me being berated by TFW staff. I'm only noting the pattern I see.

I dont really see an issue with the Llandudno shuttle being a 175. As I understand it each Manchester-Llandudno did a shuttle trip back to the Junction and back to Llandudno and then formed the next service back to Manchester. At least that is what used to happen under the old timetable. Just making best use of stock. I think a 175 on the Chester-Crewe shuttle is worst use of stock. It should be 3 carriages but either 3 x 153 or a 150/153.

 

[wobman]

Indeed - it seems likely that something will need to be changed around but I don't know if through services between Liverpool and Llandudno are still the intention. It would seem likely that they are so it will probably continue being pretty uneven.

Tfws plan is 2x197s from Cardiff to Liverpool & Llandudno at Chester 1x197 goes to Liverpool the other to Llandudno, the Llandudno on its return will couple to double up the service to Cardiff. There's going to more services such as Manchester to Bangor turnbacks aswell, with 77 x 197s ordered only 21 on the cambrian services. We will see more frequency on the N Wales coast thankfully, let's hope the services are lengthed aswell .

 

[Starmill]

I dont really see an issue with the Llandudno shuttle being a 175. As I understand it each Manchester-Llandudno did a shuttle trip back to the Junction and back to Llandudno and then formed the next service back to Manchester.

It still happens now just with a less frequent exchange of units. So the same unit might stick around for four shuttles rather than one.

 

[mmh]

The 1317 from Port Talbot to Manchester was very overcrowded today as a 2 carriage 150.Full and quite a lot standing. Not a lot of space for the massive amounts of luggage on board. It was an unrefurbished 150 too, not great on such a long journey. I was glad to get off it at Bridgend to be honest, about 15 minutes on it was more than enough and as it was late I made a tight connection with a few minutes to spare onto the Vale of Glamorgan train which also a 150 and to to my surprise was very quiet. I expected it to be busy but perhaps 1342 is a bit late for most people for a leisure trip to Barry/Barry Island or perhaps most of the Barry Island day trippers come from Cardiff direction.


I dont really see an issue with the Llandudno shuttle being a 175. As I understand it each Manchester-Llandudno did a shuttle trip back to the Junction and back to Llandudno and then formed the next service back to Manchester. At least that is what used to happen under the old timetable. Just making best use of stock. I think a 175 on the Chester-Crewe shuttle is worst use of stock. It should be 3 carriages but either 3 x 153 or a 150/153.

Yes, this appears to be what the TFW staff on here want you to think still happens, and ignore that Llandudno - Manchester has been two or three trains a day at most for a long time now.

I don't understand why they're so defensive. I've worked for many companies and public sector organisations I thought were giving a rubbish service, why they seem to take it personally is puzzling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The shuttle is a nuisance, adding an extra change to peoples' journeys for no good reason. A decent tidy up of the timetable really needs to get rid of it in favour of a useful Crewe to the Coast service, e.g. portion worked off the Liverpool or Manchester.

 

[krus_aragon]

A big part of the tfw overcrowding on the Marches is the huge amount of passengers who now travel to the South West changing at Newport now the xc route is no longer running to Bristol. Its noticeable how the trains empty out at Newport for this connection.

It's cheaper than going via Birmingham too I believe? TfW really need to sort out their yield management

A family member has used the Marches route for Plymouth - North Wales journeys for several years. While the price is slightly cheaper (and the journey slightly slower), avoiding changing at New St was always the main appeal.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, this appears to be what the TFW staff on here want you to think still happens, and ignore that Llandudno - Manchester has been two or three trains a day at most for a long time now.

I don't understand why they're so defensive. I've worked for many companies and public sector organisations I thought were giving a rubbish service, why they seem to take it personally is puzzling.

The service isn't very good but your criticism was unfounded and your implied suggestion for improving it would actually make it worse. Please don't simply make things up as it makes it difficult to criticise where it's warranted. Also I'm not connected with TfW and never have been.

 

[mmh]

The shuttle is a nuisance, adding an extra change to peoples' journeys for no good reason. A decent tidy up of the timetable really needs to get rid of it in favour of a useful Crewe to the Coast service, e.g. portion worked off the Liverpool or Manchester.

Absolutely. But someone will be along shortly to tell us how that's impossible, despite TFW regularly running to Crewe direct for the past two years. Small steps though, let's let them actually run through Chester more than a couple of times a day first.

I'm sorry for being so scathing, but they do seem to be one one of the TOCs least willing to even attempt to return to normal.

 

[Anonymous10]

Absolutely. But someone will be along shortly to tell us how that's impossible, despite TFW regularly running to Crewe direct for the past two years. Small steps though, let's let them actually run through Chester more than a couple of times a day first.

I'm sorry for being so scathing, but they do seem to be one one of the TOCs least willing to even attempt to return to normal.

maybe it's due to a lack of staff and an ageing fleet which is having a fair few reliability issues??