Tfw - Liverpool to Chester services

[CICERO55]

Hello anyone know if the new may 2022 timetables will see this service back to hourly or not? Thanks

 

[Watershed]

It remains 2 hourly with a 3 hour gap in the evening due to the Wrexham extension. TfW have reserved paths for the withdrawn services (as shown by the 3Bxx paths), which could be reinstated during the currency of the May timetable. I imagine it's more likely those paths would be used for crew training, if at all.

 

[splashoutradio]

As Watershed says, and confirmed by three separate timetable providers, the service will remain (approximately) two hourly until December at the earliest.

Railway Data: http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May22/timetable.php?table=98

FabDigital/NRT: https://timetables.fabdigital.uk/nr...r, Llandudno, Bangor, Holyhead and Dublin.pdf

TfW: https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-04/7 Holyead - Manchester May 2022.pdf

 

[Llandudno]

It remains 2 hourly with a 3 hour gap in the evening due to the Wrexham extension. TfW have reserved paths for the withdrawn services (as shown by the 3Bxx paths), which could be reinstated during the currency of the May timetable. I imagine it's more likely those paths would be used for crew training, if at all.

This TfW rail service operates wholly within England so no urgency to restore the pre Covid timetable….

 

[Watershed]

This TfW rail service operates wholly within England so no urgency to restore the pre Covid timetable….

I think there are certainly other instances where this accusation could be levelled against TfW, but I don't think it applies here. Merseyrail are now back to their pre-Covid 4tph between Chester and Liverpool, so whilst the TfW service is certainly quicker, its low frequency means it is only the fastest option if you are at the station immediately before the departure time. And so reducing it to 1tp2h doesn't have a massive effect on journeys between Chester and Liverpool.

Admittedly it is more of a problem for people making intermediate journeys, but in my experience of the service even pre-Covid, those could usually be counted on one hand.

I think it is more important for them to focus their resources on flows which would otherwise go unserved, e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury/Crewe.

 

[wobman]

I think there are certainly other instances where this accusation could be levelled against TfW, but I don't think it applies here. Merseyrail are now back to their pre-Covid 4tph between Chester and Liverpool, so whilst the TfW service is certainly quicker, its low frequency means it is only the fastest option if you are at the station immediately before the departure time. And so reducing it to 1tp2h doesn't have a massive effect on journeys between Chester and Liverpool.

Admittedly it is more of a problem for people making intermediate journeys, but in my experience of the service even pre-Covid, those could usually be counted on one hand.

I think it is more important for them to focus their resources on flows which would otherwise go unserved, e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury/Crewe.

There's some baffling decisions in the new timetable set out by tfw, the extra services on the Wrexham-Bidston’s which certainly aren't required but there's these big gaps on the Chester to Liverpool services.
The 197s will hopefully be on the Liverpool route some time after August after the Bleanau Ffestiniog route which will be the first 197s route !

Tfw are keeping the paths for 197s on the route for training but haven't used them much, it's a route that is quicker more comfortable plus has a toilet compared to the merseyrail services from Chester. Plus it's far easier for the Liverpool South parkway Station than using the merseyrail services, the passengers from Helsby and Frodsham are the ones suffering from the less frequent services unfortunately.

 

[Llandudno]

I think there are certainly other instances where this accusation could be levelled against TfW, but I don't think it applies here. Merseyrail are now back to their pre-Covid 4tph between Chester and Liverpool, so whilst the TfW service is certainly quicker, its low frequency means it is only the fastest option if you are at the station immediately before the departure time. And so reducing it to 1tp2h doesn't have a massive effect on journeys between Chester and Liverpool.

Admittedly it is more of a problem for people making intermediate journeys, but in my experience of the service even pre-Covid, those could usually be counted on one hand.

I think it is more important for them to focus their resources on flows which would otherwise go unserved, e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury/Crewe.

In all fairness I don’t think the reopening of the Halton Curve was just about increasing capacity between Chester and Liverpool City Centre, it provides direct links to Liverpool South Parkway for the Airport as well as providing direct services to Liverpool from Helsby and Frodsham.

 

[cle]

In all fairness I don’t think the reopening of the Halton Curve was just about increasing capacity between Chester and Liverpool City Centre, it provides direct links to Liverpool South Parkway for the Airport as well as providing direct services to Liverpool from Helsby and Frodsham.

Absolutely. The future state is more interesting for Liverpool and Chester - the additional connections to Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Cardiff. Plus of course, unlocking Liverpool-North Wales as a corridor, which must have huge untapped demand. I can easily see 2tph worth of demand out of Liverpool.

Helsby and Frodsham it's more about an additional frequency to Chester, and directs to Liverpool. Unintended beneficiaries, I guess.

 

[frodshamfella]

In all fairness I don’t think the reopening of the Halton Curve was just about increasing capacity between Chester and Liverpool City Centre, it provides direct links to Liverpool South Parkway for the Airport as well as providing direct services to Liverpool from Helsby and Frodsham.

I use the service often from Frodsham to reach the city centre and to get to Liverpool Airport

 

[py_megapixel]

Is TfW actually quicker than Merseyrail? Both seem to be approximately 45 minutes, though by different routes of course.

 

[Watershed]

Is TfW actually quicker than Merseyrail? Both seem to be approximately 45 minutes, though by different routes of course.

That's true. The TfW service also has a ludicrous 3 minutes' padding upon arrival, which means the Merseyrail service is usually shown as overtaking it. Really not necessary for a service of that duration!

 

[irish_rail]

Also isn't the TFW service much pricier?

 

[Watershed]

Also isn't the TFW service much pricier?

Not at all, in fact the TfW service is often the cheapest option (for commuters, for peak travel, and for Railcard holders when the Off-Peak ticket is valid). Some of the intermediate fares are very attractive too, for example Helbsy to Liverpool sees a notable price cut as well as a much faster journey time.

 

[507020]

The 197s will hopefully be on the Liverpool route some time after August after the Bleanau Ffestiniog route which will be the first 197s route !

How do you know the Blaenau Ffestiniog will be the first 197 route? I have been wanting to do that line, but have no intention of going on a TfW 150 given that I already go on enough Northern 150s as it is!

 

[wobman]

How do you know the Blaenau Ffestiniog will be the first 197 route? I have been wanting to do that line, but have no intention of going on a TfW 150 given that I already go on enough Northern 150s as it is!

Tfw have announced the Bleanau branch as the first service to have 197s in August/ September then the Liverpool service next.

 

[frodshamfella]

Also isn't the TFW service much pricier?

No its quite reasonable

 

[Llandudno]

Tfw have announced the Bleanau branch as the first service to have 197s in August/ September then the Liverpool service next.

Good idea, as this will bring a huge amount of new business for the Conwy Valley line in late summer as there will be many rail enthusiasts keen to sample the new rolling stock with the added bonus of a fabulously scenic route!

 

[irish_rail]

No its quite reasonable

But from Chester to Liverpool am I right in thinking its more expensive than merseyrail?

 

[py_megapixel]

But from Chester to Liverpool am I right in thinking its more expensive than merseyrail?

See https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CTR&dest=LIV.

Anytime Return is £8.20 via Runcorn (TfW) but £8.25 Birkenhead (Merseyrail)
Anytime Singles, £6.30 Runcorn vs £8.05 Birkenhead.
Plus there is TfW's Off-Peak Return, £6.50.

However, there is the Merseytravel Saveaway day ticket for £5.65 which is valid from Chester to Liverpool. I'm not sure if this is valid only on Merseyrail, or also on the TfW service.

 

[Watershed]

However, there is the Merseytravel Saveaway day ticket for £5.65 which is valid from Chester to Liverpool. I'm not sure if this is valid only on Merseyrail, or also on the TfW service.

The Merseytravel Saveaway is only valid within Merseyside, aside from a few extensions:



So whilst it is valid on the TfW service between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street, it is not valid between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway via Runcorn.

Confusingly, there is also a similarly named ticket called the Merseyrail Day Saver. It restricts you to using Merseyrail - rather than the county-wide rail, bus and ferry validity of the Saveaway. Yet at £5.60 it is only 5p cheaper than the Saveaway! It's a disgrace that Merseytravel are happy for Merseyrail to sell this ripoff of a ticket.

For most Railcard holders, the TfW service remains cheaper at Off-Peak times, as there is no Railcard discount on the Saveaway or Day Saver. Incidentally 16-18 year olds can still take advantage of child rates on the Saveaway and Day Saver!

 

[mcnw35282]

Saveaways can only be used in merseyside

 

[py_megapixel]

Saveaways can only be used in merseyside

The map clearly shows that they're valid to Chester on Merseyrail. The question I had was simply whether they are valid to Chester on TfW as well, which they appear not to be assuming @Watershed is correct.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Saveaways can only be used in merseyside

The map clearly shows that they're valid to Chester on Merseyrail. The question I had was simply whether they are valid to Chester on TfW as well, which they appear not to be assuming @Watershed is correct.

Only if travelling from Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead.

TfW services aren't ever routed that way, are they?

@Watershed is not normally wrong on these things!

 

[Watershed]

Only if travelling from Liverpool to Chester via Birkenhead.

TfW services aren't ever routed that way, are they?

@Watershed is not normally wrong on these things!

I don't think Network Rail would be particularly pleased to have 150s running in the tunnels, what with their fumes and all

 

[507020]

I don't think Network Rail would be particularly pleased to have 150s running in the tunnels, what with their fumes and all

The TfW Lime Street - Chester services are 175s, not 150s

 

[py_megapixel]

The TfW Lime Street - Chester services are 175s, not 150s

They still produce diesel fumes though!

 

[Watershed]

The TfW Lime Street - Chester services are 175s, not 150s

150s have turned up plenty of times. Basically anything that moves will do!

 

[wobman]

150s have turned up plenty of times. Basically anything that moves will do!

It's booked as 2x153s normally but there's been a variety of DMUs over the years, after August/ September tfw are planning a 197. The 197s are also planned for training & testing runs on the route this year.
As a service I much prefer the tfw service to Liverpool as it has far better scenery and a toilet over the merseyrail route.

 

[Eccles1983]

The TfW Lime Street - Chester services are 175s, not 150s

Booked traction is 2 x 153's.

It can be anything in reality except a solo 153 which is forbidden by Merseytravel/Network Rail.

 

[jamesst]

The Merseytravel Saveaway is only valid within Merseyside, aside from a few extensions:

View attachment 114259

So whilst it is valid on the TfW service between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street, it is not valid between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway via Runcorn.

Confusingly, there is also a similarly named ticket called the Merseyrail Day Saver. It restricts you to using Merseyrail - rather than the county-wide rail, bus and ferry validity of the Saveaway. Yet at £5.60 it is only 5p cheaper than the Saveaway! It's a disgrace that Merseytravel are happy for Merseyrail to sell this ripoff of a ticket.

For most Railcard holders, the TfW service remains cheaper at Off-Peak times, as there is no Railcard discount on the Saveaway or Day Saver. Incidentally 16-18 year olds can still take advantage of child rates on the Saveaway and Day Saver!

Saveaways are valid in Merseyside (bus, train, ferry) and also up to Ormskirk and Chester (merseyrail train only).
The merseyrail day saver was introduced by merseyrail, basically to try and get some of the revenue that were being lost to saveaways. As much as Merseytravel may be unhappy with it they can't do a thing about it.