Lumo driving standard

[357]

I'm aware of an incident earlier in the year - this isn't directly related to this thread.

But today is my second time using Lumo and as a driver myself I'm a little surprised by some of the driving on both of my trips.

I'm on the train now, and whilst I don't sign the ECML, I don't think we are exactly in an area with close up signalling such as seen on suburban and urban routes.

Yet since leaving Kings Cross a couple of hours ago there have been multiple instances of hard deceleration, with items on tables in the coach going flying.

This isn't helped by the tray tables having no lip on them and being a very smooth surface, resulting on me and my phone getting covered in someone's cider just now.

On my route, I can comfortably but minimal service application passing a double yellow and slow down comfortably for the single yellow and then down to the red if the route doesn't clear.

I'm not immediately going to jump on another drivers back to slag off their driving style, but I've never noticed this style with LNER services, are we getting cautionary aspects in unusual places where LNER normally wouldn't, or where signals are very close together, or do Lumo have a very different policy when slowing down that they expect their drivers to adhere to?

 

[Spartacus]

Mmm, it was following a GTR approaching Peterborough, but for long enough the driver should have been aware of something in front, no need for anything harsh.

I guess every link's got it's drivers who always seem to be going for the record, so I wouldn't necessarily say it's anything to do with Lumo in general (I remember coming into Leeds from Woodlesford once, convinced that were were going to come to a grinding half with a TPWS overspeed, but we never were), but maybe you'd think they might be a bit cautious considering the Peterborough incident. This one seems to be getting early regularly. Hope stopping for the Harrogate didn't soak you again.

 

[irish_rail]

Maybe a legacy of employing lots of ex metro drivers perhaps? 80x traction has to be driven carefully as it is very easy to give a poor ride if going straight to a high brake step rather than starting at 20 percent and gradually increasing it (unless of course bombing along at 125mph and met with yellows).

 

[DelW]

Reading the initial RAIB report on the incident you've alluded to, combined with Lumo's disgracefully mendacious press release concerning it, is more than enough to put me off ever travelling with this operator. I would hope that RAIB are looking very closely at Lumo's training and competence procedures, and are willing to take urgent action against them if necessary. Your description of your current journey merely reinforces my opinion.

 

[falcon]

I thought these drivers had to have numerous test and assessments before they were allowed anywhere near the controls of a train. Very worrying.

 

[VP185]

Might be the companies knee jerk instruction to the incident earlier this year?

 

[RollingStock19]

I'm on the train now, and whilst I don't sign the ECML, I don't think we are exactly in an area with close up signalling such as seen on suburban and urban routes.

Yet since leaving Kings Cross a couple of hours ago there have been multiple instances of hard deceleration, with items on tables in the coach going flying.

There are parts of the route where the signals can be a little closer together, and often you can find yourself coming around a corner to greet a double yellow so you do have to get it down fairly sharp. Of course if you can see that double in the distance you can start bringing it down earlier. I knock it off as soon as i see a double in the distance and then start braking at the green before it, and usually 30% bring its down fine.

The 80x is quite easy to slide too, so I wouldn't want to take the chance. Passenger comfort is important, but not as important as running through cautionary aspects way above the recommended speed heading towards that red just to give a 'smooth' ride.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2022 ==

I thought these drivers had to have numerous test and assessments before they were allowed anywhere near the controls of a train. Very worrying.

They do! so not worrying at all. The training team/DI's are all old hands on the railway, non of them are even remotely new.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2022 ==

Might be the companies knee jerk instruction to the incident earlier this year?

There is a professional drivers policy to adhere too, which includes target speeds for cautionary aspects especially for PQA drivers, maybe they were just trying to get it down for that?

 

[357]

I feel I should reinforce as a fellow driver that at no point did I feel unsafe, simply uncomfortable/irritated.

 

[skyhigh]

I feel I should reinforce as a fellow driver that at no point did I feel unsafe, simply uncomfortable/irritated.

I'd suggest that you direct your complaint to the company itself then, rather than post a thread on here making comments on the way someone else is driving- particularly if you didn't feel unsafe!

 

[theking]

If you are that bothered about the standard of driving then why not complain to Lumo rather than post on here inviting speculation from people who haven't got a clue how to drive a train.

 

[357]

I'd suggest that you direct your complaint to the company itself then, rather than post a thread on here making comments on the way someone else is driving- particularly if you didn't feel unsafe!

If you are that bothered about the standard of driving then why not complain to Lumo rather than post on here inviting speculation from people who haven't got a clue how to drive a train.

To repeat my original message:

"are we getting cautionary aspects in unusual places where LNER normally wouldn't, or where signals are very close together, or do Lumo have a very different policy when slowing down that they expect their drivers to adhere to?"

 

[RollingStock19]

"are we getting cautionary aspects in unusual places where LNER normally wouldn't, or where signals are very close together, or do Lumo have a very different policy when slowing down that they expect their drivers to adhere to?"

You can get cautionary aspects anywhere, there are places as well where you come bombing round the corner at 125mph and see a double yellow, so you get the break in swiftly.. .then you see the next 3 signals all ping up to green. Usually for level crossings.

I've been checked down to some places I wouldn't expect recently as there has been a spate of cable thefts around Doncaster.
I'd like to think the driver wouldn't be braking harshly for no reason.

 

[theking]

To repeat my original message:

"are we getting cautionary aspects in unusual places where LNER normally wouldn't, or where signals are very close together, or do Lumo have a very different policy when slowing down that they expect their drivers to adhere to?"

Well you could have pulled up open train times and had a look at the map or real time trains to see if it was following anything on your phone maybe then it wouldn't have got wet when the cider went "flying"

 

[londonboi]

It’s always the same as soon as a company’s name hits newspaper headlines the slightest issue and bang the name appears again over something minor.

Drivers are TRAINED to a very high standard before getting signed off.

 

[DelW]

Well you could have pulled up open train times and had a look at the map or real time trains to see if it was following anything on your phone maybe then it wouldn't have got wet when the cider went "flying"

You seem to be blaming the OP for this. Do you think that all passengers should constantly track their train and those around them, ready to take defensive action when their neighbour's drinks are knocked over by harsh braking?

 

[theking]

You seem to be blaming the OP for this. Do you think that all passengers should constantly track their train and those around them, ready to take defensive action when their neighbour's drinks are knocked over by harsh braking?

No I think if they have a concern they should make it immediately apparent and either contact the staff on board, thr train operator or the authorities not come on here to dig out a colleague inviting speculation from a) people who haven't got a clue b) people with an axe to grind with drivers/lumo/the railways c) the media.

The op isn't some wet behind the ears punter he is a driver who has come on here asking questions even though they had the means to answer them themselves.

 

[bengley]

No I think if they have a concern they should make it immediately apparent and either contact the staff on board, thr train operator or the authorities not come on here to dig out a colleague inviting speculation from a) people who haven't got a clue b) people with an axe to grind with drivers/lumo/the railways c) the media.

The op isn't some wet behind the ears punter he is a driver who has come on here asking questions even though they had the means to answer them themselves.

It's not cool to go around grassing drivers up to their employer every time you think a brake application is too heavy - most fellow drivers would never dream of doing such a thing and I have a severe disdain for passengers who take to social media to grass staff up for things which they have no idea about.

 

[DanNCL]

If I recall correctly a significant number of Lumo's drivers are ex-Tyne & Wear Metro so will have been used to a much harsher braking technique than is needed on an 80x. An additional significiant number of Lumo's drivers are completely new to the railway and will still be getting used to how the trains handle - think of it as a bit like driving a car for the first time, it often takes time to get used to how the brakes handle and until you've got used to it you will end up braking quite harshly. Although if this is still a fairly common occurance 6 months into Lumo's passenger operation then one does have to wonder if there is a specific issue with Lumo, be that poor training or company policy to drive more harshly.

 

[ComUtoR]

Do 80x units have an anti-jerk function ?

 

[hexagon789]

It's not cool to go around grassing drivers up to their employer every time you think a brake application is too heavy

Why not? This is exactly how problems become ingrained - because people are concerned about reporting their fellows.

most fellow drivers would never dream of doing such a thing

More fool them

I have a severe disdain for passengers who take to social media to grass staff up for things which they have no idea about.

Tough, if they want to complain let them.

If I recall correctly a significant number of Lumo's drivers are ex-Tyne & Wear Metro so will have been used to a much harsher braking technique than is needed on an 80x

I thought it was stated upthread that that wasn't the case.

it often takes time to get used to how the brakes handle and until you've got used to it you will end up braking quite harshly

Trains aren't like cars though, in previous threads on driving technique, it has been stated that when new trains are introduced or new drivers trained that they brake very light and very early until they get used to braking points and their confidence builds to allow braking a bit later a bit heavier.

Do 80x units have an anti-jerk function ?

They have a holding brake that comes in at low speed and jerks the train to a stand.

 

[ComUtoR]

They have a holding brake that comes in at low speed and jerks the train to a stand.

We have units that do similar. I was wondering if there is an anti-jerk feature much the same as ours that can be adjusted so that there is less of a harsh brake and/or acceleration.

 

[bengley]

Why not? This is exactly how problems become ingrained - because people are concerned about reporting their fellows.


More fool them


Tough, if they want to complain let them.


I thought it was stated upthread that that wasn't the case.


Trains aren't like cars though, in previous threads on driving technique, it has been stated that when new trains are introduced or new drivers trained that they brake very light and very early until they get used to braking points and their confidence builds to allow braking a bit later a bit heavier.


They have a holding brake that comes in at low speed and jerks the train to a stand.

Because it's not your business to what degree a driver feels it necessary to use the brakes.

 

[Nottingham59]

are we getting cautionary aspects in unusual places where LNER normally wouldn't,

I wonder if one factor is that Lumo as a new operator is using paths that have been shoehorned into an existing timetable? For instance, we know that 1Y80 is timetabled to follow the slower EMR 158 down Stoke bank on the Fasts into Peterborough. That's not ideal and won't be the same driving style as four or five LNER services all following the Flying Scotsman out of Kings Cross.

I would expect there to be lots of other occasions where a lumo train has to stop/start as it were to thread itself around other traffic on the route. Over time, I would expect the timetable to get tweaked to even things up between the various services.

 

[bramling]

Because it's not your business to what degree a driver feels it necessary to use the brakes.

Middle ground required here. If something is uncomfortable or dangerous then it is best addressed rather than left to the point where it might cause an incident.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It's not cool to go around grassing drivers up to their employer every time you think a brake application is too heavy - most fellow drivers would never dream of doing such a thing and I have a severe disdain for passengers who take to social media to grass staff up for things which they have no idea about.

But if you are having someone elses drink splattered over you because of heavy handling of the train. Not only that, the OP didn't mention whether he was on duty or not, but having alcohol (cider) on his company uniform (if he was wearing it) is not good.

My question is - do 803s have blended rheo or regen brakes, and are they smoother than conventional pads on discs ?

 

[Newshound Mutt]

If I recall correctly a significant number of Lumo's drivers are ex-Tyne & Wear Metro so will have been used to a much harsher braking technique than is needed on an 80x. An additional significiant number of Lumo's drivers are completely new to the railway and will still be getting used to how the trains handle - think of it as a bit like driving a car for the first time, it often takes time to get used to how the brakes handle and until you've got used to it you will end up braking quite harshly. Although if this is still a fairly common occurance 6 months into Lumo's passenger operation then one does have to wonder if there is a specific issue with Lumo, be that poor training or company policy to drive more harshly.

It doesn't matter what they have been doing beforehand, they should be fully trained and competent over the route and traction they operate before being passed for mainline service

 

[yorkie]

People are entitled to contact the relevant TOC if they are unhappy with harsh braking; whether the TOC will be interested in any such correspondence is another matter.

In general I'd say harsh braking is far worse and much more common in continental Europe than in the UK though!

I wonder if one factor is that Lumo as a new operator is using paths that have been shoehorned into an existing timetable? For instance, we know that 1Y80 is timetabled to follow the slower EMR 158 down Stoke bank on the Fasts into Peterborough. That's not ideal and won't be the same driving style as four or five LNER services all following the Flying Scotsman out of Kings Cross.

This really isn't an issue; the signalling system is absolutely designed to keep trains a safe distance apart and drivers are trained on how to drive under such conditions. The vast majority of the time a driver following a slower train will adjust their speed accordingly and it will be a smooth ride. If it isn't, there is nothing unsafe about it.

 

[Grumpy Git]

It doesn't matter what they have been doing beforehand, they should be fully trained and competent over the route and traction they operate before being passed for mainline service

Driving, no matter what the vehicle, is like handwriting, everyone is different and some will never get the hang of being 'smooth'. Some people just have no mechanical sympathy.

I've no doubt that the benchmark for driving a train is immeasurably higher than a car, but I'm sure all train drivers know of others in their profession who are 'rough', just as all car drivers cannot understand how some other road users ever got their licence?

 

[notadriver]

Driving, no matter what the vehicle, is like handwriting, everyone is different and some will never get the hang of being 'smooth'. Some people just have no mechanical sympathy.

I've no doubt that the benchmark for driving a train is immeasurably higher than a car, but I'm sure all train drivers know of others in their profession who are 'rough', just as all car drivers cannot understand how some other road users ever got their licence?

Most people know how to drive a road vehicle or can tell if a vehicle (car bus lorry) is being driven badly by observing the driver of said vehicle in relation to the view ahead afforded in all road vehicles. For example as a coach driver running double manned I’ve found the driver often undertaking other vehicles, braking harshly, taking corners too fast and tailgating all in an effort to gain those obviously vital few second and to prove he is the macho superior driver.

But I feel train driving has little respect - whilst on holiday I revealed to a holiday maker my main job and he commented that with no steering all I had to do was press one button to start and another to stop. How would you proceed with the conversation after that ?

 

[Grumpy Git]

But I feel train driving has little respect - whilst on holiday I revealed to a holiday maker my main job and he commented that with no steering all I had to do was press one button to start and another to stop. How would you proceed with the conversation after that ?

Tell him how much you earn and watch them go green.